I guess I'll throw my two cents in here.<P>A point everybody seems to be missing here is that [censored] didn't close the thread, the moderator did. Did [censored]'s apparently lone voice have that much strength? <P>I would like to think not(maybe Divine intervention!), so maybe the moderator and owner of this site did find our posting in poor taste. Did anyone hear directly from them?<P><BR>So lets quit shooting the messenger!<P>God Bless,<P>Bob<p>[This message has been edited by RWD (edited November 30, 2000).]

[censored],<P>I did not know you were "[censored] from texas". I too have enjoyed some of your threads. Sorry to see your opinion sparked up such flames, but it happens now and then. (remember the dating thread around last April?) Oh boy.<P>Anyway, I'm staying out of it all, just appologized for the prayer thread of mine in the beginning and thats it. <P>Lets all remember we're all probably pretty wound up due to the holiday and like I tell my daughters.. "can't we all just get along" hugs to all Dana<BR>

RWD (Bob)<P>Hey Bob....good to hear from you. I appreciate your input.<P>I have kept up with your threads and sounds like your ex has gone on with her life and I hope you will do the same.<P>I pray God's blessings upon you and your daughter this Christmas Season and just remember how much God loves you both!<P>Dana<P>Good to hear from you as well and I appreciate your input. Wow...I never dreamed I would start such an 'avalanche' when I first posted.<P>I also wish you God's richest blessings during the Christmas Season and may He carry you when you can no longer carry yourself.<P>Have you ever read the poem "Footprints in the Sand"?<P>[censored] from Texas

Gadzooks! Is this a Christian Web site?<P>I wonder how a lapsed Jew/pagan/feminist liberal like ME got in?<P>There goes the neighborhood.<p>[This message has been edited by Dazed and Confused (edited December 01, 2000).]

Jayhawk,<P>I've never recommended that anyone be celibate. I do believe that people who date before a divorce are cheating (don't care what their "reasons" are), and I believe that people who jump into a relationship immediately after a divorce probably aren't thinking too much about the other person. It is more likely that they are needy and want someone to prop them up. OK, I suppose I need that too, but there are ways to go about supporting another person that have much less damaging emotional consequences---for both people. <P>I'm celibate for two main reasons:<P>1. I know for a fact that I am too damaged to have a relationship in the foreseeable future. Doing so will not provide for the emotional/spiritual well-being of the other person. I refuse to "use" someone to "fix" me.<P>2. I also refuse to be used for sex by men who believe "love" is a feeling. My time and energy are precious. I will not waste my love on men whose main goal is to "feel good", at my expense. Of course, I can say that because I also refuse to treat another person that way myself. <P>Unfortunately, this website attests to the fact that many men and women believe love is mainly a feeling. I don't see a whole lot of difference between some "betrayed" and "betrayers", except for the fact that the "betrayer" slept with someone else first (maybe coincidentally? who knows?). <P>Most people go into relationships thinking "what's in it for me?" and rarely think "how can I personally contribute to the emotional/spiritual wellbeing of this person". Personally, I know that I'm not in a position to contribute much of anything to another man's emotional/spiritual wellbeing at the moment, at least not in the context of a so-called "intimate" relationship...so out of responsibility to my values AND the wellbeing of any genuinely good man I may happen to run across...I am not dating or having sex. <P>Back to the topic....<BR>We all make generalizations based on our past experience. I find the people I've met who talk about sex all the time to be very shallow. I suppose talking about one's feelings and fears are alot scarier. So many people (mainly--men) use sex as a short cut around expressing their emotions in other, more constructive ways. They use it to express "love", and they use it to express "hate" as well (i.e. rape). If sex is the primary way men express their "love", then their relationship is doomed IMO. <BR>

TheStudent,<P>You spoke a mouth full of wisdom!Wisdom doesn't come easy. It takes a lot of pain to <BR>teach us this kind of wisdom. I don't know if you are a Christian(not to offend anyone) or not, but if you are I would have to say you have matured in Christ quite well. If you are not a Christian, you still had to suffer in order to learn a relationship and especially a marriage is about what we can give to the other person. Knowing that love is not a feeling also shows maturity. There are many other things I would like to say but, after the way Christians have been refered to here ,I don't want to upset anyone. Oh,I am very proud of being a Christian. It took me a lot of pain and lose to turn to God to change me.<BR>I still have pain but, I now know the pain is<BR>creating a more mature person ready to accept<BR>life for what it really is. Thanks for being brave enough to share what you have learned.<BR>gentle

I do not know whether or not I would be offended by the off-color humor, because I have no interest in reading those threads. If I had thought this was a Christian site, I wouldn't have been posting or reading here, since I am an atheist. <P>What bothers me about this particular forum is that there seems to be a strong correlation between how negatively the participants view the impact of divorce, and their current behavior. People who have formed new relationships, in general, minimize the impact of divorce, on the adults and the children. So often their comments sound just like those of the WS - "kids are resilient", "I deserve better", "The marriage was dead", etc., etc. Once you are in another relationship, you can not make a reasoned appraisal of how good or bad your relationship was. The "fog" applies just as much to BS's who are now with someone else as it does to the WS's. <P>

Jayhawk,<P>I have read post here for a while with no comment toward you. I have learned after a lot of pain, to not respond too quickly. So I have given time to think about my respond to your comments on this thread. I really haven't read much of your post on the other<BR>threads you started or that were directed at you. I did go back and check some of the post<BR>after [censored] first posted.I have spent most of my life arguing with someone. Since I am 40, that has been a few years. I try to live my life in peace but,I have been very hard headed in my life and I must work on peace everyday. I am not trying to convict or condemn anyone.That is not my place.But to tell you the truth about what I have observed<BR>on this thread and some others is that a remark about sex or anything else gets far less negative feedback than anything that mentions Christianity. Of course things have always been this way. I too have been a part of this negative feed back until I had so much pain that I finally turned to the very thing I had put down to save me. I quess that is why some are so quick to defend being<BR>a Christian because some had to broken to turn to God for peace. I could write all day and never convince you are anyone else to become a Christian. It just doesn't work that way.It didn't take me long to feel the rejection that I get from being a Christian even from my own family. But that is the way it is and always has been. Yes, you and everyone else are free to be or not to be Christians.It would be nice if I could offer encouragement(which is what I thought this site was for) as a Christian without being called boring,depressing,or judgmental. Of course, this is not the world we live in. We live in a world were my children feel they cannot pray in silence in the public schools. Christians have always been treated this way and will be until the end of time. The Bible tells us this. I just try my best to offer hope and encouragement to those that seem to need and want it. I know that there are many Christians that try and push their beliefs on others.I know that there are Christians that can be judgmental and cruel at times. I stayed away from the church for years because of this. We are to restore people gently. Christian laugh and have fun.We even joke about sex sometimes.We are people. It would be great if we could offer encouragment based on our belief without getting called depressing but I know that is not going to happen. That is why I stay off of threads that talk about sex. They don't offend me, I just know that encouragement is not what they are looking for and I am not looking for what they have to offer. It seems to me that if we choose what thread we read and respond to by their topic as suggested here, then the ones not offended by off color humour would not even have ventured to this thread for they would have no need to respond. Maybe Christians are not the only ones that try and force their beliefs on others. I hope you have a wonderful sex life,Jayhawk, if that brings you happiness. I hope that all of you not depressed people find happiness in worrying about what others may be saying about you.I pray all of you let everyone offer encourging words to others in whatever way they feel most comfortable with, even us Christians, without criticism of one another.<P>gentle <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Jayhawk,<BR>.....<BR>Maybe this is the only area you feel proud about in your life right now. There is a great big world out there that doesn't revolve around what is in your shorts. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Is this a "christian" comment? If so, I think paganism looks a lot more appealing than christianity right now. In any case, it looks like the "sex" subject has pretty much dried up & gone away, so the "christians" did in fact prevail. I've found posts in this thread that were a lot more offensive than those in the "sex" thread.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

Nellie,<P>"What bothers me about this particular forum is that there seems to be a strong correlation between how negatively the participants view the impact of divorce, and their current behavior. People who have formed new relationships,in general, minimize the impact of divorce, on the adults and the children. So often their comments sound just like those of the WS - "kids are resilient", "I deserve better", "The marriage was dead", etc., etc. Once you are in another relationship, you can not make a reasoned appraisal of how good or bad your relationship was. The "fog" applies just as much to BS's who are now with someone else as it does to the WS's."<P>My thoughts exactly. I think about you often and hope you and your kids are finding it easier to cope these days. Take care.<P>Gentle,<BR>I'm not a christian, in that I don't believe in the diety of Christ. However, I do think he was very wise and a wonderful teacher.<P>Cooker,<BR>As mentioned above, I'm not a Christian. I recognize that sex is a very important "need" for many, many people--myself included. However, when sex is taken outside of a responsible, committed relationship, bad things tend to happen. Hurt feelings, unrealistic expectations, unintended pregnancy, STD's. Need I go on? <P>I too used to think that all that stuff about abstinence, commitment, blah,blah was just designed to "spoil my fun". I'm not discounting that talking about sex is lots of fun for some people. And granted, for people who feel like being good at sex (mechanically) is a critical acheivement, talking about it alot probably provides a great deal of satisfaction. There is alot more to sex than just the mechanics, though. Watch about a zillion pornos (or have sex with a zillion men/women)and the mechanics become pretty boring AND transparent. Well, it becomes pretty boring and transparent for those who wish to become intimate at a level that goes beyond the mechanics anyway. <P>I'm guessing that the reason why so many of us are on the divorce board is NOT because the sex was bad. If two people are truly intimate, the "mechanics" will be worked out. If the mechanics are good, but there is no intimacy, there is not a book or sexual technique in the world that will save that relationship. My only "advice" is not to waste time talking about the mechanics, that's all. Those that do, I'm afraid, are not concentrating on the "right" things (like their pain, anger, fears, etc.) and so yes...in my daily life I would be suspicious of someone who talked about little else but the mechanics of sex. <P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 03, 2000).]

cooker,<P>No one prevails when there is disagreement!<BR>I wouldn't judge all non Christians by one persons comment. I hope you do not judge all <BR>Christians by one persons commment. In this country we are taught there has to be a winner. Everything is a contest. I am thankful I have learned that life is not a contest. There are no winners. We all lose when there is disagreement. No one has lost any "rights".What has prevailed? What did Christians win? What did non Christians loose? Sounds like the election.Maybe life is not suppose to be a race to win.Maybe we<BR>are just suppose to live it without all the competition.I don't know.I have found when I think I know the answers is when I make the biggest fool of myself. <BR>gentle<BR>

I guess I'm just a little disappointed that whenever I post in here I need to be very careful of what I say, so as not to offend someones sensibilities and send them running off to the moderator to get a thread locked that they don't like. I certainly would never judge any person by the behavior of another, but there have been some awfully vicious things said in here by people who consider themselves to be "christians"<P>At least nobody on the "offensive" thread ever attacked anyone....<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited December 03, 2000).]

I know how it looks based on things I have said in this thread and the ‘joking’ which has taken place in other posts, but my life is NOT based around sex. My divorce became final on 11/20/00 and I never once went on a date, had sex, kissed, or even touched a woman in a more than friendly way during the process of my divorce. I have not lied, I was not unfaithful and I have nothing to justify or to regret. IMO, anything that happens after 11/20 is irrelevant as long as I feel emotionally ready to proceed with my life. <P>I do not use sex to feel good about myself. True, good feelings have a way of appearing as a result of sex, but that is not the driving factor me. What I miss most about being alone is the intimacy, or least the thought of it, and not I’m not referring to sexual intimacy here. I miss holding hands, I miss the daily hugs, I miss cuddling on the couch, I miss having someone to really talk to when I come home from work, I miss being the one that another comes home to each evening, I miss long conversations and comfortable silences, I miss being close to another person and I miss being a couple. I miss sex, but it does not compared to these other needs.<P>I am 30 years old. I want a relationship. I want a family. I want kids. I want back into my ‘dream’ of the perfect life. Unfortunately, being alone is not part of that dream. So I will start meeting people, I will start dating, I will start being intimate. I will also be direct, upfront and honest with anyone that I chose to get involved with. I will not get serious or in a committed relationship for at least one year and I will tell that to anyone before anything progresses in a relationship. I need that time to figure out things about me and about my life. I’m not going to be completely selfish or discount others feelings by any means, but this next year is mine. If I don’t take this time to figure things out, I won’t be any good to anyone in a deeply meaningful relationship, including myself.<P>As far as the religious aspect, I could care less. I don’t mean to offend or take away from anyone’s beliefs, but I am spiritual in my own rights and I don’t care to change that. I was raised in the Jewish faith, but fall more into the realm of a Pagan if you must get technical. I was married by a Baptist minister who tried to ‘save’ me during our pre-marital counseling. I thanked him for his thoughts, but I choose to live this life my own way. I like who I am on a spiritual level and I have no reason in my life at this point to change. I take offense to anyone who literally tries to push their religious beliefs on others. Expressing them is one thing and that is great, but when it comes to trying to ‘convert’ another person, the line has been crossed. But that is just my opinion.<P>I knew a guy who claimed to be very godly and was a “good Christian”. This man(?) was cruel, he was abusive, he belittled, he raped, he was controlling and he went to church every week and ‘confessed’ his sins thinking that would save him. I know this is not normal of all good people, but just hearing the term ‘good Christian” sends chill down my spine because of this SOB. He couldn’t even begin to understand what being good meant, except for being a good liar. Now I’m not trying to offend anyone by this and I apologize whole heartedly if I did, but it takes more than just saying you are a ‘good anything’ to make that statement true. <P>I just choose to say that I am a ‘good person’ and I’ll leave it at that. <P>I live my life the best way I know how and I am one of the best people I know. Call me whatever you will for that statement, but that’s how I feel. And when it comes time for me to stand before the pearly gates and meet my maker, I can hold my head high and justify anything that has occurred during my life. And if the way in which I have chosen to live my life has me destined for purgatory, then so be it. Because when it comes right down to it, if being in heaven next to the guy who claimed he was a ‘good Christian’ is where I would be headed, I'd rather be somewhere else.

Cooker,<BR>I know what you mean about being careful what you say. I try and pray before I respond or I am sure I would offend someone because I am human. I am not happy with the way some<BR>Christians act and talk either. Christian is really a verb. We are Christians by what we do<BR>rather than what we lable ourselves.There are some I would like to say bite me to but that would put me where they are. Only God can judge anyone.I will galdly leave that to him.<P>Jayhawk,<BR>I by no means meant that your only happiness came from sex.I was trying to show we all have different ways of venting. Sorry this came across wrong. I didn't state it the best.<P>I know what you mean about wanting someone to hold. I miss holding my H so much sometimes that I can't even think about holding him. We are not divorced yet and I know it was praying to God that has stopped the divorce for now.Three years ago I would have had a different respond to everything on here. I too want my family. It took losing them to realize how important they are to me. My H and I don't have anyone else. There has just been a lot of hurt. It has been a rough year. I turned to God because I was so broken and had tried everything else. I do mean about everything. I am not trying to convict you only God can do that and I am trying my best not to try and be God.My H had not touched me for 6 months because of things I said in my contest to the divorce. <BR>I dropped my motion to contest and let my lawyer go. I trust God to handle it all now.<BR>I kept messing it up. I am telling you this because I believe we are all in the same boat<BR>just on different seats different days. I prayed for my husband to be intimate with me again after months of him not even wanting me to hold his hand. I guess this is a big reason I stay away from the subject of sex. It just makes me miss him more. I can't even listen to a lot of music. While after a lot of prayer my H finally was intimate with me again this past Friday. I know this was an answered pray because as I said he has not even let me hold his hand for months.I am not trying to convert you, I just wanted to share my encouragment with you.This is why I trust God so much. I didn't even feel comfortable about writing about my faith until God answered my prayers so clearly. This was not the only one but it was the clearest. Sorry if I bored you, I just wanted you to know things get better and there is always hope. I have just gotten to this point in the last few months. A few years ago you would have been hearing something totally different from me. I hope <BR>this gives you hope for yourself.<P>gentle<p>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 03, 2000).]

Gentle,<P>You did not bore me, nor did your comments offend me. My last post was just a general reponse to many things I have been told and things I have read.<P>I am trying not to allow the differing of opinions to affect me as much anymore out here. I obviously don't see things the same way as others, but that's ok. <P>And at the same time, I don't want to take anything away from you in regard to your relationship with God. I think everyone needs to figure out what role God can play in their lives and they need to go with what's comfortable for them. I feel that I have done this myself and I am happy with my current relationship with God. <P>Now some may disagree and say that I don't have a relationship with God at all, but I realize that's just a matter of opinion.<P>It sounds like you have a handle on things right now and if God is playing a part in that, then you are doing well. I wish the best for you and hope that continue in your current path. You sound like you've got things under control which is the most a lot of can hope for during a time like this.<P>Take care.

I have to admit I am suprised about how quickly some people are offended by what someone posts anonomously(sp?) on this post. And I'm not talking about [censored]. I understand where he is coming from, while I may not agree with how he handled it.<P>Going through my x's infidelity and subsequent divorce and all the things she put me through are more pain than I have ever endured. Nothing any stranger, that I probably will never meet, can say anything to offend me like I'm hearing here. Maybe thats just me.<P>As far as something being taken from us, I see that there is still a Sex thread that hasn't been closed, so there is an avenue there for us that want to post there or I haven't seen any prohibitions against posting any sex topics.<P><BR>Stu, Nellie,<BR>I semi-agree with what you are saying, that you shouldn't run out to find someone else to fill a need. But I don't see how becoming a martyr is going to help my kids. I want to teach that life is hard and there are set backs, but that you move on.<P>I am not looking for someone to replace their mother or to show her(x) that I can do it without her. I am looking for a woman to share my life and dreams with. The woman I chose, got a better offer in her opinion, and chose that life. I will not end my dream, but will seek a substitution. <P>I am trying to take my time, but it is hard. I know I have to work on myself too.<P>Bob<BR>

Since I began this thread, I think it's time to allow it to die.<P>It has become a battle ground (won't mention any names) for 2d,3d,4th, 5th parties (etc) to bash each other.<P>If you (and you know who you are) wish to continue your battle, please open a new thread. <P>I, for one, am sick of the direction that this thread has taken. And no, I do not apologize for my convictions....I am just sorry it upset so many.<P>Please, let this thread die.<P>[censored] from Texas

We are gathered here today to bury this thread. Although it was meant for good, it has gone to the dogs. We should all learn to respect others opinions and smile a bit. Life is wonderful and needs to be lived. Humor is healing to a heart torn and abused. Lets all have fun here. BTW, I'm aggreeing to disagree with everyone. hehehe

[censored],<BR>I was going to post something, but I'll honor your request. <BR>Take care...<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 04, 2000).]

Dear Folks<BR>Just for your info--my MIL is a "Christian" writer and is generally conservative. It would be better for her to lighten up and laugh, which she does on rare occasion, particularly when the joke is a tiny bit questionable--even stuff that involves bodily functions. But if it would be in any way sexual, it is a bad thing to her. <BR>I ask you, is this cultural artifact (what conservative so-called Christians have collectively decided is "sinful") or is true 100% to the way Jesus lived? Anyone who says he knows for sure might be a fool. <BR>This is not a Christian site, but it is a site that helps Christian people and others do much better in keeping/restoring their original intents in marriage. (I would say that it is a mission field, white as unto harvest) I believe that Harley is a Christian and speaks to other Christians, but knows that his efforts can help others of all faiths, including those of no faith. The Prayer Section does not say: "Christian prayers only!"<BR>Those of us who are German or Russian background know that there is much inherited interpersonal grimness and realize that the more laughter the better. Sexual innuendo is very humorous. Some of the best jokes ever are in the Playboy, right after the centerfold. A good number over the years, deal with the excesses of the male drive. (If you don't have enough evidence, be careful that you don't run into a buck. I assure you, he is not running wildly across the highway for a dinner invitation) <BR>There sure are a good number of men posting here who are in touch with that excess to a greater degree, thanks to Harley. I say, "Laugh at your foibles!" And be sure to laugh with your wife, too, to the greatest degree possible. (A couple in trouble is not laughing together)<BR>And just as sure that Jesus passed wind, there are a good number of followers who are really constipated about humor. There are plenty of places in Scriptures referring to the value of merriment, laughter, and light-heartedness, as well as having a drink or two. In times like these, I know I need to refer to them more often. It sure beats the advice that Job's friends gave him, "Curse God and die!" <BR>Thank you all for your contributions, humorous or not.<BR>Time to go to church choir practice!<BR>R<BR>PS as a Christian, I mean to accept the hearts of those who are not of my faith. If they are to be judged, God can do that--I will not let the Conservative wing of the Republican Party decide for me. Liberal was not a swear word in the New Testament and it isn't for me either. Just as surely as the various "low lifes" are prominently mentioned (shepherds, lepers, tax-collectors for the occupation government, harlots, beggars, cripples, widows, dark skinned Samaritans--anyone of low status in that day) they are also accepted, redeemed, and are part of the Kingdom (the last shall be first!). Jesus was crucified because he was liberal and not conservative enough in following the dictates of the religious leaders of the day.