Hi all --<P>I used to participate in this webforum way back when I thought I was sane. In hindsight, I was anything but sane. Essentially I threw away a good, stable marriage to two internet affairs which I thought would save me from the hell of a marriage that was in trouble.<P>Our marriage survived the first affair, no small part thanks to my husband. <P>Then within months, I met another man on an Internet support group and I was back in trouble again. My husband left for a job half way across the country last May and by mid June, the Internet guy had crossed country lines (he's American, I'm Cdn.)and was living here in the marital home. He had it really sweet, but then, I'm the one who let him in, right?<P>To make a long story short (but I know all stories truly lie in the details), I threw out Internet guy today, with police escort. This is the fourth time I've done so.<P>I feel like I'm grieving my marriage, the life that used to be. Yes, we had problems but with some effort on my part (cos hubby was more than willing), I'm sure we could have worked things out.<P>Instead, right now, he's living with another American (too weird eh? My Internet fling and his lived an hour apart in CA) whom he met right here on this forum.<P>Sometimes real life is stranger than fiction.<P>I'm in a lot of pain right now. I hope someone out there can help me be strong; can help encourage my resolve to be rid of Internet guy once and for all.<P>Take good care,<BR>Francis<P>------------------<BR>Take good care, Francis

Hi Francis,<P>I remember you from the WWLM boards last spring...<P>I can only say this....we will walk with you through the pain of all this, and try to keep you motivated in healing yourself...<P>I just don't have any real advice to share at the moment, and I am truly sorry about that...But I do care and want to see you get through this to the other side...<P>Hang in there and keep comming back.<P>Bill<P><P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Francis}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I am SO glad to hear from you...I have been worried about you after your departure. OTOH, I am so, so very sorry to hear that you are in pain and having such a rough time.<P>I'm sure someone really wise like JL or K will show up soon, with lots of wonderful words of advice...I have none. But, you are a warm & wonderful person, and you will make it thru this I know...<P>Big hugs--<P>Kathi

Hi Bill, hi Kathi -<P>It sure is nice to be among friends. Thank you for the warm welcome.<P>It's night here now, the kids have headed to bed, the dogs have gone out for their nightly constitutionals and I'm feeling a little bit lost.<P>It's been a heavy day but I know I've made the right choice in kicking out the OM. In these quiet moments, I am given to wondering how I ever got into this mess. It seems I've gotten myself into messes all my life, but somehow I always managed to clean up after myself. This time, I blew it big time though.<P>I don't mean to sound morose or anything -- it's not how I'm feeling. I just can't imagine how I got to this place, and yet here I am...and I can recall almost every step, every move that brought me here.<P>I know when OM contacts me tomorrow to come fetch more of his stuff, I'm going to need to be strong and make sure he comes with a police escort. I know I am vulnerable to him but I also know I cannot continue on this path with him.<P>Right now, I'm trying to steel myself for that eventuality...it's going to be difficult but it's something I want for myself more than anything.<P>Thanks again...for being here and understanding.<P>------------------<BR>Take good care, Francis

Francis,<P>I remember reading many of your mega-threads last spring on the Why "women leave…" board.<P>Your posts and insight helped me to begin to understand my W and what she is going through. It helped me to realize that there are no simple answers.<P>I am still in the middle of all this and have no great words of wisdom to offer you. <P>Just wanted you to know that you meant a lot to me. I'm sure your old friends will be here soon to help you through this with much more wisdom than I can offer.<P>Be strong and be true to yourself.<BR>

{{{{{{{{{{Francis}}}}}}}}}}!!!!<P>It is so good to hear from you again, if only it were under better conditions. You have been in my thoughts and prayers many times since you left us last spring. I rarely post now, but when I saw you were back I had to make an exception.<P>Your kind words and advice last winter and spring helped give me the courage to take the first few steps of a long and difficult journey, instead of giving up and walking away. I cannot thank you enough for your having taken the time from your own situation to offer comfort and a friendly "ear" when I was hurting so much.<P>I really am not very comfortable in the divorce forum as this is my wife's divorce action, not mine. I claim no part of it and continue wearing my ring and being faithful to my vows, even though it is fast coming up on one year since I have heard from her. If you would like to talk or just have someone to be there for support and venting I would be more than willing, if you don't mind posting in a different area.<P>I know you from your posts to me in the past well enough to know that you do have the strength to break free of this man and begin to rebuild your life if you have chosen to. <P>Please don't hide from us again when you are hurting so much. I believe you know that you have many friends here that can understand where you are at and will not judge you for any mistakes you feel you have made.<P>Ron

Hi Francis:<P>I was looking for you a couple months ago, but hoping your story was working out much better than it appeared to.<P>If you had to throw the internet guy with the police's help, I'm guessing that he can't have a very positive balance in your lovebank. Definitely keep this guy out of your life: if not for yourself, then for your kids sake.<P>As for your husband, I'm not sure that he's an answer for you right now either. You need to stabilize a bit, and start to heal (and become "sane") before you deal with your marriage. You guys had made some tremendous progress the last time (but too quickly, IMO)---it seems as though you need to do this in a more stable, controlled fashion, with the help of a marriage counselor who knows what they're doing. <P>I would communicate with your husband as soon as you can conceive of a plan and timetable to try to put your marriage back together. See what kind of response you get---remember, you are the mother of his children. That does count for something.<P>God bless you, Francis.<P>(And this does serve as a minor ***warning*** about having MB members emailing privately and then meeting. Let's face it folks, you've got a ton of very needy people with similar problems hanging out here---it's playing with fire when you take this off a public forum).

First to RonS,<P>I just wanted to extend an invitation to you to continue to post here in this forum. I like you, do not believe in divorce but unfortunately I am in the middle of it, if for nothing else than to protect what I have left. I love my wife dearly and look at this forum not as just for those who want a divorce or who are in favor of a divorce, but for people like you and me. I have learned so much from all my friends here. In fact many of the friends here are not in favor of their divorces either. Stick around a while - post a few times - I promise you won't be dissappointed. Remember that if your wife continues on her course for divorce, you owe it to yourself to make sure that "you" are also OK.<P>Francis,<BR>I came here after you left so I don't know all the specifics of your divorce, but I would like to offer one thought: I firmly believe that any marriage can be saved through open and honest communication. In the past months I have met several people who all say that divorcing was a big mistake for them. When I ask what they are doing about it, they usually say "nothing". <P>Let's be honest, it is a big risk to stand up and admit you made a mistake - but you never know until you try. God forgives all our mistakes and so we are called to forgive each other as well. Maybe your husband is having some of the same thoughts - maybe there is still love left for you. If you think you messed up, then admit it to him - see what happens.... Take a chance.<P>just my $.02<P>May God grant you the wisdom, strength, courage and comfort you need in these difficult days.<P>Mike

Hi Francis---<BR>Just stopped back by to see how you were doing..let us know how today goes, OK?<P>Hugs--<BR>Kathi<BR>

Dear friends --<P>Hi. Again I want to thank all of you for your kindness and generosity of spirit in welcoming me back to this place.<P>Today has been a good day for me. Determined not to be in touch with Internet guy, I left for a little bit this afternoon -- got a haircut, just for a bit of a lift. When I got home, I rifled off a few more resumés (gosh, I hope something breaks soon!) and then did some puttering around the house.<P>I received a call from a counselor from the police department. She recommended some places I could go to for free to get back some of the self-esteem I've lost in this debacle. I'm going to look into it tomorrow.<P>Ron S -- I hope you will continue to post here. I honestly don't know where else I can post this stuff. I am in the midst of a divorce (and a quicky one at that!) I made the terrificly bad mistake of agreeing to push back the date of our separation so a divorce could be granted sooner rather than later. In Cda, a couple has to be separated for at least a year before divorce proceedings can begin. Hubby and I separated in May, 2000, but we both decided to push the separation date back to Sept. 1999. The divorce will be final, or should be, by January or February, 2001.<P>K and Mike -- I have broached the subject with my husband about the possibility of reuniting. He said he didn't think it was possible. He is happily esconced in his new life now but I will continue to encourage his participation in our lives.<P>When I threw out internet guy yesterday, my husband was the first person I called. I needed some support, and as usual, he was there. Nice guy -- too bad I screwed up so badly.<P>K -- I don't even feel sheepish about this --You were right! All along. I never threw myself into the recovery of my marriage after the first affair. All I could see was the negatives in my life and how my husband had let us down, how I had let us down. All I wanted was a chance to start over with someone new. You know the old saying, "Careful what you wish for?" Well, I am the poster child for that truthful adage.<P>I have approached him -- though haphazardly -- about getting back together (as mentioned). He gave me an immediate "no". During this most recent crisis with Internet guy, hubby and I had a really nice talk over the phone. I told him how much the kids missed him, how all they want is for us to be a family again, how I knew how badly I had messed up. (God, that rips my heart into shreds). He replied that as painful as this is, it is for the best. He actually said he has come to terms with the fact that "we just weren't good for each other". I just let it go.<P>For right now, I'm going to focus on the kids and me again -- we've been out of focus for a while now, since internet guy arrived.<P>For right now, I'm not even looking for answers, just strength to keep my resolve that the relationship with OM is over. (He contacted me via e-mail today to again volley some lovely expletives my way. It's all my fault, you see).<P>For right now, I'm just placing all my faith in God -- that he make the next step obvious to me. That's all.<P>Thanks to all of you...I honestly feel at home here again. I've missed you!!!<P>Take good care,<BR>Diana<P>P.S. To K: How are things in your marriage now??? Is JL still around???<P>

Hi <P>Just thought I would also add my 2 cents.....<P>It is wonderful that you can admit you made a mistake, coming here and telling us is one thing, and a good start. I guess I just want to say though, Just because this guy turned out to be a horrid experience, Do not belittle your husband by asking him to try again out of default. I only say this because I know too many friends that go back with thier husband....and dont work on the issues that got them in the situation in the first place and they end up leaving them again, it is too hurtful for them.If you left him before, you have to address the reason. When I decided to end my marriage it was because I could not work on the issues because we couldnt be honest and open, we couldnt communicate at all.I would rather be alone or wait for someone whom I can be honest and open with comes along. It is hard, but my couselor says I am growing everyday. I am learning to live alone and find out what it is I want, now that I know what I dont want.<P>Just my opinion ME

Yiup -- I completely agree with that. There were issues that haunted our marriage and no, they never were properly addressed.<P>At some point, very recently, I came to the conclusion that being alone was in fact better than being with someone with whom I couldn't relate. Fear of being alone is what prevented me from addressing the issues in my marriage. It was the same fear that allowed me to hook up with internet guy to begin with.<P>Coming to the realization that I could do it on my own, that I wouldn't dissolve or wither away is what gave me the courage to toss internet guy out of here. <P>Right now, I'm a little scared of what the future holds -- but as AA (internet guy is a recovering alcoholic, 8 yrs. sober) and Al-Anon say, "One day at a time..." and "Easy does it." <P>Sounds about right for me.<P>------------------<BR>Take good care, Francis

Hello Francis,<P>Yes, I am still here. I am sorry that you need to be here, but am glad that you decided to come back and finish the work.<P>I do think you are right. One step at a time. First, get rid of OM #2 and then get your life back into shape. I am sure the children will need some help with all of the comings and goings so do focus on them. They do need your help.<P>I look forward to many lively discussion now that you are back. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hello Francis,<P>Unfortunately I don't remember a thread called why women leave, but I wish I had. Either way, its wonderful to see that so many people still lurk here and come out to say hi to their friends who have left and returned.<P>I've been here almost a year now and have learned a lot. But the best part of all was the support.<P>Sorry to hear about your current situation, and I agree, it take a lot to come out and say something like that. One day, I wonder if my ex husband will ever realize the true impact of it all.<P>Hope to see you post again and I hope that you have a safe break from your internet ex. I remember the days of the police and all that. Its not easy.<P>Hugs, <BR>Dana<BR>

Francis,<P>First, let me clarify that what I was suggesting was only moving to a quieter forum within MB such as WWLM or Prayer Requests to talk sometimes. I fully agree with what K said about the dangers of private email or meetings among members for a number of reasons.<P>There has been a flurry of intolerance and bickering within the Divorce forum of late. Since my beliefs about marriage and relationships clash with some, I have no desire to ignite conflict and/or offend the people here.<P>Having said that, it is way too early in my opinion to approach your husband about your relationship. For now, at least he is willing to communicate with you in a friendly and supportive way. Keep this door open if at all possible. The very most I would attempt to do would be to ask if he were willing to put the divorce action on hold for a time while you each review the decision.<P>Also, what can happen in the courts does not mean it will happen that way. My wife was told by her attorney that her divorce would be final the first week of Feb. 2000. As of today we have not had the first hearing yet, and it may not be final for quite some time.<P>Please go back and read the last series of posts from the two of you. The hurt and pain expressed and implied goes very deep in both of you. Before you can even consider healing your relationship with your husband, I believe you need to heal you.<P>Find out who you really are, not who you or others think you should be. I am guessing that right now your husband has been hurt so much by the events of the last year or so that he is unwilling to risk being hurt again at this time, but that can always change.<P>Please be strong and hold your ground about getting this OM out of your life as fast as possible. I cannot see anything positive coming from that relationship for you, based on you own words.<P><BR>SoTired2000,<P>I cruise this forum most nights of the week, but have avoided posting due to my position on the requirements and obligations of my marriage covenant being so different from many of the posts here. Whether my wife's divorce goes through or not has no effect on the decisions I have made. I am certainly not intending to offend or criticize the decisions of anyone here, we must each choose our own course and what is right for our own lives.<P>As far as my being ok, I have found that the more material things she took for herself in an effort to hurt me, the less they mattered to me. I have turned back to a path we started down together many years ago, but wandered far from at some point.<P>The last year has been filled with such extreme pain, hurt, sadness and emptyness at times, impossible to describe to someone that has not experenced them. There has also been much healing, growth and learning about who I am as a person.<P>I know in my heart that I am getting very close to where I am supposed to be again. I am moving forward slowly, learning more every day. I pray that at some point in the future my wife will choose to return to our marriage, and I will rejoice when that day comes.<P>Ron

As a old member of alateen for years, I have recently gone back to the steps to guide me through all this. I firmly beleive they can get you through everything.....I especially love "let go and let god". Good luck with your endeavors. <P>Mike,<BR>Have a nice Thanksgiving!!!!!!!!!!!

Francis:<P>I would suggest that you might want to delay your divorce, if possible. I have no idea what your husband's current situation is right now, but it's likely to be as "unstable" as any affair or rebound relationship. Perhaps not---but I have no data to go on other than "bulk statistics", and those would support my conclusion that he won't be with his current ladyfriend two years from now.<P>So, I would fully support you going to the courts and letting them know that you purjured yourself by giving a false date, and that the actual separation date was May. The major issue with this is to try to let your husband know that you're doing this in hopes of a reunification WITHOUT it being a lovebuster, or curtailing his involvement in the family. If you can pull that off, great. If you can't---I would imagine that you'd be better off trying to have him be as involved in your family life as possible, and wait for the (inevitable?) breakup of his current relationship.<P>While you're waiting---you've got the plan. You need to work on yourself and your family, and bring this back into focus. I think you've got your head (and heart) in the right place---and it's time to start on the road back.<P>And I'm really sorry about "being right all along". I was hoping that you were enjoying your summer (did you plant your garden), with your kids, and that hopefully your husband hadn't taken off so quickly.<P>My marriage is **interesting** these days. My wife had an apparent stroke about a month ago, which she's been recovering from in good shape. But she's too young for a stroke, so the docs have done a bunch of MRI's to figure it out. There was concern of MS (which panicked my wife, and then she figured ALS instead---so she could die horribly). You know this type of brain... . Anyway, the "good" news is that she has an apparent abnormality in her brain in which the junction from arterial to venous flow isn't right, and that the stroke probably came from a buildup in arterial blood (pooling and leaking) which caused a small clot. The reason that this is good is that it can be corrected by surgery. We have consults with the neurologist and a neurosurgeon next week, so we really don't have an idea of how involved the surgery will be.<P>And on my way to pick my wife up for her appointment yesterday, I got to pull a guy out of his flipped semi-cab that had hit a concrete barrier on the interstate at 65mph. He didn't have a trailer on the truck, and he slammed into this jersey barrier at pretty much full speed (with his cab on it's passenger's side). His fuel tanks were completely ruptured, and there was diesel fuel all over the place. Miraculously, he was able to pull himself out his driver's door (now the "top" of the cab), and me and another guy lifted him out and got him away from the rig.<P>Too much excitement for one day---I crashed early last night...<P>And Noah is almost 2---and cute as can be. He's still "my boy", and I'm having a ton of fun with him... <p>[This message has been edited by K (edited November 22, 2000).]

Ron,<P>It sounds like we have very similar views on marriage and our vows. If you get a chance, do a search on my screen name to see how I approached some subjects and the responses I received. Don't be swayed by the most recent debates here - they were more the exception than the norm. I guess all I am saying is that the people here have really helped me out in a big way. The best part was that everyone here is going through something similar. True not everyone agrees with my postions at times, but I often learned more from the disagreements than I did from the ones that agreed with me - it made me start thinking "out of the box".<P>The best thing I learned here is that I am not always right and I don't have all the answers. In several posts there were answers that I never even thought about and if it weren't for my asking a question here, I may never have been exposed to that way of thinking...<P>One thought which is written in the bible is about how a spouse who is left behind by another spouse is not required to be celebit for the rest of their lives. If they tried all they can to save the marriage and the other spouse simply refused, then the spouse left behind is free to move on with their lives - they don't have to wait around forever. I think the personal part comes in when you try to decide what "tried all they can" means to you...<P>Just some thoughts.......<P>Francis,<P>I just want to agree that your husband is most likely going to be very "gun shy" when it comes to taking a chance with you again. Take it from me! As much as I pray for my wife to change her mind and return, I know that it will take some strong faith and courage for me to begin to let her back in my life. But the way I look at it is - it has to start somewhere!<P>Seems like there is a viscious circle happening in many marriages: Spouse A gets hurt - they pull back on their love sand decide they want out. The Spouse B becomes hurt and confused - they want the marriage to work. They try for as long as they can until they reach their breaking point. Then they quit and put up their own wall. Then Spouse A decides they may have made a mistake (whether that is true or not depends on each marriage) and they try to persuade Spouse B to try again. Well guess what? Spouse B now has a big wall up that keeps Spouse A out. Spouse A tries for a while and then gives up on the marriage again. And on and on...<P>I think for a marriage to be saved, one of the spouses has to have enough courage to say <BR>"enough is enough - Yes you hurt me, just as I hurt you. What I need to know is if you are serious and committed to try again? If the answer is yes, then we need to sit down and work out how we are going to work on our marriage".<P>So many people will tell one or the other spouse that it is not worth it, it won't work, forget about it, move on.... Well I am the one who will forever stand up and say, "do whatever you can to save your marriage. Just make sure that as you are saving your relationship, you are making it a healthy one for the both of you. And if you aren't, then don't give up on the marriage, just try something different in the way you are 'saving it'."<P>Mike

Dear friends --<P>After a little sadness late last night and early this morning over internet guy's departure (I know, it's just withdrawal), I'm back to feeling strong again, thanks to all the support you guys have provided. Thank you! <P>Did a bit of Christmas shopping this morning for the kids -- and I actually feel myself getting a tad bit excited about the holidays. I don't know why...but I'm not gonna question it.<P>JL - Nice to see you again Lively debates? I'm not sure about that, my friend. I feel like I've had the wind knocked out of me for some time now. Maybe I'll stick to simple questions and answers this time around.<P>Dana -- thank you for your encouragmeent. It is hard. And I was the instigator of all this nonsense. It's a long sordid story -- but it all came on the heels of a medical dx for my son (TS) that literally turned our lives upside down. He's 9 now and doing really well. Still my little sunshine . I don't know your story, but I hope one day you'll find happiness and peace.<P>Ron -- again, I hope you stay...but if others care to join in a quieter place, I'd be happy to move over as well. I must admit though, the warm reception I've received on this board -- where I honestly didn't think anyone knew me -- has been a humbling experience.<P>Mike -- Tonight is my Al-Anon meeting (only the third one I've attended). I hope the group leaders are prepared for me! And yes, you're right, their principals are a great way of life for any of us.<P>And you are right about the vicious circle that seems to plague some marriages -- makes me wanna stop the merry-go-round if I knew how.<P>K - Wow, talk about stressful days??? Man, I would have panicked seeing that kind of accident. I hope no one was seriously injured. Give yourself a pat on the back for helping out; too many would have driven by.<P>And shock of shock over your wife's medical problems! You guys really have been through the ringers!!! Please send her my best. I hope all goes well from now on, but be sure to know that you and yours are in my prayers.<P>Glad to hear you're enjoying Noah so much. Two is such an incredible age, isn't it? But then, I thought every stage was marvellous. (I may have to recant...my daughter turned 12 and has a terrible case of teenage-itis. <P>I did get around to planting a garden--but with internet guy. It looked really nice.<P>Hubby left for points west May 1 and returned Oct. 1 (thankfully). In all that time, he was only able to make it back twice to see the kids. They really missed him. It was on his second visit back that I asked him if he would consider returning closer to home. (He was intending on staying out there, where OW had already committed to relocating.) We had a really rough summer with my son (meds needed changing, etc, etc, etcm and I'm sure daddy's departure and internet guy's arrival didn't help any!)and when hubby returned, he could see how much he was needed. He was torn, though. Said he felt he was asking OW to give up so much by moving north and east. (She has three teenage children.) I gently told him that he only had two children -- these two -- he'd have no more to call his own and if he remained out west, at best, he would only ever have an informal telephone relationship with them. He returned the next day with the news he would be looking for a job here. By the end of his week here, he had found one in a neighboring community!<P>I'm going to give him a call and see if we can get together (just the two of us) to discuss postponement of the divorce. I'll not push it though. If he says "No" I'll respect his wishes.<P>Until later...<BR><P>------------------<BR>Take good care, Francis

Francis,<P>OW wouldn't be S, would it??<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited November 22, 2000).]