I thought I was going to make it through the holidays but boy was I wrong. Christmas eve we fought about what to have for dinner. He wanted to spend alot of money to make clam chowder. I told him we had just enough to do the Christmas brunch we do every year. He went on about who was more important him or the brunch. Well just so you know the brunch is his tradition and it is for his family. I told him he could have one or the other. We have been trying to stick to this budget and I seem to be the only one enforcing it. It's not that I don't think he is worth the money it's just that we don't have the money. Well this turned into him telling me to move out and I told him that I was not the one with the problem, that if he felt it was to that point then he should move out. He said fine that he would. Two hours later he acted like the whole conversation had never taken place. It has not been brought up since. I get this from him often though. I'm afraid his self esteem is still in depression mode. I'm afraid that he has not really gotten over it and with the holidays he is getting bad again. I guess what I'm asking is how can I show him that he is important without going into debt to do it. <p>Steph

Steph,<p>I don't know what you can do that you aren't already doing. There is only so much you can do. Somehow he's going to have to wake up for himself. I say this because what you described sounds like my brother-in-law. He would say the most hateful things to my sister. He would do some things that were really bad. Then later on he would talk as if nothing had happened. His explanation would be something like' "Honey, you know I was mad", or "It's in the past so forget it".<br>My sister tried to treat him right for a long time but this sort of behavior didn't change. In my opinion since the problem lay clearly with him he was the one that needed to change. I'm not saying your husband's case is the same. I don't know enough about it. But it seems to me that when somebody is so obviously the source of a problem that the onus should be on them to change. The other spouse can be supportive but they can't make a person change a bad trait. Nor should they keep feeling like there is something else they need to do when the person with the problem is the main one who needs to do something.

Steph<p>Try to keep it all in perspective. At least you are together, even if in CONFLICT. It's a lot easier to make changes at this stage of a relationship than if either or both of you were completely withdrawn from each other. Trust me, I know. My wife and I have been separated since early August, and even most of the year prior to that my wife was withdrawn. There's little opportunity for me to make love deposits any more, or to do anything for that matter that might bring about a reconciliation. Christmas for me was hell this year. I spent the day alone in my office, knowing my wife and kids were doing the "Christmas thing" without me. Bottom line -- be thankful for the conflict. As long as you're fighting, there's still hope.

Steph, I'm sorry to hear that you're having a hard time over the holidays. You are in my thoughts often and have given me much to ponder about with regard to the damage I had done to my relationship before my H strayed, and how hard it is to "fix" that damage - almost like infidelity in it's damage to the trust in our relationship.<p>But slowlerner brings up a good point. You and your H were both in the Withdrawal State for a long time. Your H finally moved through Conflict and into Intimacy, but you did not, because of all the hurt you've endured from previous "broken promises" to change. Your H is probably moving back and forth between Intimacy and Conflict right now, and you seem to be moving back and forth between Withdrawal and Conflict.<p>This is GOOD NEWS! Re-read the articles on the website about the 3 States (Stages) in marriage and perhaps it will begin to make more sense. It is often the spouse that has tried the hardest and the longest to keep the marriage going who has the most difficulty leaving the Withdrawal state - probably because of the hurt you've endured before going there. If you can move to Conflict, then you are no longer afraid to be in conflict with your spouse and it is progress. Eventually, as long as you both remain committed to your relationship, you will both move back to Intimacy and your relationship will become the marriage you have always wanted.<p>Hope this offers the encouragement I mean it to. I think you are doing GREAT! Don't let it get to you too much.<p>terri

Oops ... forgot to address the issue that Steph brings up about showing her love for her H. Perhaps a letter? A letter explaining how much you love him and appreciate the effort he is putting out to come back from his depression... he is taking everything personally - that sounds like the self-esteem issues you mentioned for sure. I don't know how to "cure" that - most of my self-esteem issues have disappeared with my depression once I got on medication.<p>The holidays are stressful enough for people who don't suffer from depression, but for those of us who do, they are filled with hazards around every corner. The last two weeks have been nearly as hard as the first two weeks after I found out about my H's infidelity and plans to leave me. I have wavered between certainty that he still cares about me to deep and soul-wounding doubt that I am loveable to anyone. And I have been taking my medicine as I am supposed to. I have cried every single day for the last two weeks, at least a little bit. And if I lived with my H still, we probably wouldn't have gotten into any conflict because he is truly in the State of Withdrawal with regard to our marriage.<p>What I am trying to say is this: He is stressed, and so are you. He is internalizing everything - he is being self-centered in a negative way, interpreting your unwillingness to spend extra money as a reflection of how you feel about him as opposed to what your true intentions are. That is something hurtful to you - but you cannot take responsibility for it. It is his problem. You can only express your love and appreciation for him - you can't make him feel good about himself.<p>A letter still seems like a good idea to me - I think that writing something down gives you the opportunity to read it several times before you give it to him to read, and it gives him the opportunity to read it several times and save and cherish it if he appreciates the effort you have gone to.<p>I hope things smooth out for you soon. I really feel that depression is as damaging to a relationship as infidelity - the depressed person withdraws from the intimacy of marriage in a similar manner as an unfaithful spouse. The depressed person is generally self-centered in the extreme, concentrating only on how bad they feel, and often blaming the non-depressed spouse for everything that is wrong in the relationship (so does the unfaithful spouse, usually). The depressed person is dealing with serious self-esteem issues, and so, generally, is an unfaithful spouse. While depression is a sickness, it is still exceedingly harmful to a relationship.<p>You and your experiences have helped to educate me about how depression hurts a marriage. Your posts have shown me that I have betrayed my H's trust almost as much as he has betrayed mine. And that it will take more than a couple of months of my changed behavior to convince him that I have changed. He has lived with my depression for over three years - I can't expect him to be convinced I am well overnight, just as a betrayed spouse isn't convinced that the infaithful spouse has changed just because he or she said so.<p>Again, I hope I have helped in some way. I am exceedingly greatful to you for sharing your experiences with us here on the forum, because I think it has helped me to see more clearly my role in "fixing" the damage I have done to my relationship with my H.<p>terri

Thank you all for your replies.<p>Bruce,<p>I think you are right. There comes a time when I have to realize that it is up to him and that I can not MAKE him happy. I can just be me and do things as best as I can and then let him take them for what they are worth. It's hard to sit back and not take it personally though when I myself am just getting my own self esteem on track. I hope things are going better for you. <p>slowlerner,<p>I am thankful to have entered the conflict state. I know it is better than withdrawal but it still doesn't make it any easier. I'm a fixer and for years haven't been able to fix this. I find it very frustrating. I'm sorry you had to spend christmas alone, but like so many here you still have a chance. I firmly believe that. <p>Terri,<p>Thank you. I have followed your story and hope I have helped some. You know a good deal about where I am. Just a few weeks ago was I able to admit that I had really gotten all the way to withdrawl. You must have seen it all along. What scares me most is he was so close to taking me into the depression with him, and I don't know how strong I am to stay in conflict long enough to progress back into intimacy. We had a good night last night and this morning. Our neighbor had asked me to take them to the airport early in the morning and he offered to do it for me knowing that I needed to sleep. That was a first. Mostly because he never offers to do things for others let alone me. Like you and Bill have been saying "Baby Steps" . I have a question for you. His birthday is coming up in about two weeks. Do you think it would be better to write a letter to him and give it to him on his birthday or would it mean more if I gave it to him for no reason? He is not really a very sentimental guy and usually laughs at romantic or "mushy" things. He has always seemed to take it better when associated with an occasion. Thanks again for you comments. I truly cherish them. <p>Steph

Steph, that's a tough one. My H has never been particularly sentimental or romantic, either, and, while he has never "laughed" when presented with "mushy" things, he tends to sigh and roll his eyes. Frequently while he was still living at home I gave him cards to express my love for him. Often, even though he had to have seen them, he wouldn't open them until I handed them to him. Then, he would open and read. When he left, he left some clothes that he had just washed and dried. I folded them and put all the cards into a bag with the clothes. I don't know what he did with them, but he has/had them to look at if ever he wanted to.<p>In the early years of our relationship, I always gave him cards - as a matter of fact I still have one on my refrigerator that dates back to the very early stages of our relationship. I allowed his seeming disinterest in receiving such cards to stop that practice, and now wish I never had. I gave him cards for no particular reason at all - I enjoyed doing it.<p>I guess what I'm getting at is that his reaction of laughter is not what should guide you in when to give him a letter or card telling him how much you love him. His laughter is probably just a manifestation of his self-esteem problems, and so is not a reflection on you in any way. I would give him the letter whenever you are able to write one that you feel says exactly what you want to say - don't connect it with an occasion - make it an occasion. Give it to him or leave it for him so that he can read it without you watching - that way, neither of you will feel self-conscious about it and you still accomplish what you wanted: to express your love and appreciation for him. The message will be even more clear if it is not obscured or overshadowed by the fact that it is his birthday and you're "supposed" to express your love for him then.<p>I hope this helps. I fully intend to continue expressing my love to my H both verbally and via cards - even if I have to mail them to him! I have a little collection of love and "missing you" cards that I have been buying since before he left. I had hoped I would be able to throw away the missing you ones after vacation, but that isn't the case, so I will be mailing them after the holiday season has ended and I have fewer excuses to talk to him or see him.<p>Again, I hope I've helped some.<p>terri (thinking she better find those cards)

Steph,<br>My wife's birthday just passed. So I was in a similar situation.<br>During the summer and early fall, I would write her letters of my feelings for her. About once per week. She always thanked me, but, as you know, she was unwilling to accept my feelings. So, as things were going better between us, I bought a card with no "Hallmark" gibberish. Blank. And I wrote my feelings about the past year. And about our future. I wrote about how I believed in her, and what type of person I saw her as. I only mentioned "love" once. I told her that in beginning this new year of her life, she should look forward to things that we have taken for granted, to this point.<br>I gave it to her first thing in the morning. She read it and thanked me. I don't think sentimentality has anything to do with this. A person likes to feel special on their birthday. That's the reason to do this. It doesn't have to be "mushy". Just let him know that you believe in him, and that you believe in your marriage.<br>Bill

Steph:<p>Your comment that you felt your husband was close to pulling you down into his depression with him caught my eye. It IS hard to be around someone who is usually depressed, and not be affected. It's like a black hole: orbit too closely and you'll be pulled in. And how can a spouse NOT 'orbit closely'? My wife has been clinically depressed (taking Prozac) for years. She's also in chronic pain which the docs haven't been able to fix. Anyway, she's 'down' most of the time.<p>I'm wondering if Dr. Harley has addressed how clinical depression figures into his methods. Like, how do you get 'enthusiastic agreement' if your spouse isn't enthusiastic about ANYTHING? <p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited 12-29-98).]

Doug,<p>I have often pondered that question myself. I have said before that it is hard to implement the policy of the joint agreement when one is in the taker mode. I found with my H's depression that I was always giving into him because he never wanted to do anything. What it came down to was me saying that he didn't have to do it but I wanted to and was going to. I could not give up my life to him in that way. I think when it comes to depression you do have to look at things in a different way. From what I have read about depression it is not very positive for marriages. I got the feeling that I needed to let him be as selfish as he needed to be to come out of it. That didn't sit well with me from a marriage stand point. Especially since we have three kids all under five years of age. Sorry I have gone off on a tangent. <p>As far as the policy of a joint agreement is concerned you can do it with some things but with a spouse going through depression my personal opinion is that you have to protect your needs as well.<p>I hope Terri will respond to you and let you know how it may be from her side. I love hearing her point of view having gone through depression herself. <p>Steph

Hmm. I can't really help too much with this problem, I see where depression has damaged my relationship terribly. You can't get "enthusiastic agreement" from a depressed person. You'll get "whatever" or "I don't know" or "I don't care" or "If you want." These were the words I used, and the words my H (who I believe is also depressed) uses now.<p>Doug, you have a kind of unique problem with your wife's problems from the sound of things. Chronic pain is terribly depressing to begin with. Has she tried any alternative therapies such as acupuncture? I understand that acupuncture is gaining a much wider acceptance in the US and other countries and has been especially good for chronic pain.<p>I found a couple of books over at Amazon.com on depression and relationships that sounded pretty interesting - I am at my parents' house tonight as I got snowed in here, and don't have access to the title or author info right now. I'll try to post the info later on.<p>I often wonder if I would have responded if my H had tried to "force" me to do things. I can't actually say that I would have - but I don't know...<p>Sorry I couldn't add more to this discussion.<p>terri

Steph and Terri: Thanks for your responses. I agree that dealing with a depressed spouse is hard. It's kind of like she's in withdrawal from everything--not just from me.<p>In our quest to find some effective therapy for her pain, I've usually been the one to set her/us up to see new docs, 'cause her depression and repeated ineffective treatments make her want to give up. Lately, I'm starting to despair of this also. <p>She's been in a lot of pain the last few days. And depressed. I had to run some errands today, and when I asked her if there was anything I should get, etc. she just sat in the kitchen and stared at the wall. ARRRGH!!! (I didn't say that--I was just thinking it.)<p>I didn't even bother to ask her if she wanted to go out for New Year's. (Besides, the last 3 times I've asked her if she wanted to go out, she wanted to stay at home with the kids.) We actually had a good time--played games, watched a video, banged pans at midnight, etc. and she seemed in better spirits. When we finally went to bed, I thought about seeing if she was 'in the mood', but decided not to. Heck, she's always either depressed, in pain, just doesn't want to, or a combination of all 3. With her in that state, how can I ask my wife to meet my need for sex? I'm not sure I even WANT to ask anymore.<p>So I just rolled over to her and gave her a quick good night kiss (also something she NEVER initiates). *sigh*<p>- Doug, falling slowly toward the black hole...

Doug, what is causing your wife's pain? One drastic measure that I've read that people have been getting relief from is actually severing some of the nerves that transmit the pain. Is she a fibromyalgia victim? Or is there a more concrete source of her pain? Have you tried doing web searches for alternative pain therapies? Is it possible that some of her pain medication could be causing/contributing to her depression?<p>It is much easier to understand some of your past posts knowing what you are dealing with at home. I know what it is like to be in pain from injuries I have suffered, but I also knew that once I healed I would be okay. Hmmm... that reminds me that one of the things that happened to me a few years ago was a car accident with a back injury (muscle injury which took its time healing but is okay now) - I remember dull pain every single day from waking to sleeping. That may be one of the things that triggered/worsened my depression.<p>terri

Doug,<br>Although my wife does not suffer from as severe as a problem as your wife, mine is in a similar boat.<br>She was diagnoes with chronic arthritis this year. She has suffered from joint swelling and pain in her fingers and toes. She was told that her hands and feet would be disfigured by the arthritis within 10-15 years. We have been to seveal specialists. And we go to the lastest one every 3-4 months. She is on medications to keep it in check. <br>This past summer, she had an affair. Due in part to her depression about her condition. Which put her into a mid-life crisis situation. After I found out, her depression was terrible.<br>She would stay in bed all day. Eat junk food, then work out at the gym for hours. Her therapist wanted (still wants) her to take anti-depressants. But she refuses to. <br>She has also refused to take responsibility for anything going on right now. Household decisions have been mine for the past few months. <br>Is your wife in therapy? If not, try to get her into it. It will help her deal with what is really going on. You should get into therapy too. This way you can vent your frustrations without putting them on your wife.<br>And, just try to support her. Try not to control her. Make suggestions to her.<br>Finally, love her. Tell her as often as she is willing to hear it. <br>One of the things I do is to give massages to my wife. It relaxes her, and makes me feel like I am doing something to help.<br>Best luck.

Yikes, Bill! Junk food is a horrible thing to do to the body, particularly if one is suffering from any chronic pain or depression. Is there any way you can encourage her to cut back on foods high in salt: a terrible thing for women to consume - causes a lot of fluid retention which in turn aggravates joint pain and causes depression. Also, foods high in sugars are not good to consume frequently, because the elevated blood sugar levels trigger elevated insulin levels and in turn will cause low blood sugar - this results in tiredness and depression.<p>Believe me, I've researched a lot of causes for depression and these are probably the most common causes. Add to that a diagnosis of chronic arthritis, a disease related to ageing, and you have ready made depression! No wonder your wife is concerned about her age! Imagine what is going through her mind (consciously or subconsciously) - "If I'm not even 40 yet and have arthritis, what's it going to be like for me when I turn 50 or 60? Will I even want to get that old if I have so much pain now?"<p>Depressed individuals often do not want to acknowledge that they are depressed - they see only that their lives have no hope, and cannot fathom that any medication can alleviate that. They see their depression as feelings resulting from life conditions that they cannot change, not as from body chemistry imbalances that has made them look at things from behind a veil of despair.<p>See if you can get your wife involved with some kind of support group for arthritis (is it rheumatoid arthritis or osteo-arthritis - if rheumatoid, that causes depression by itself.<p>Hope this helps!<p>terri

Terri,<br>She has osteo-arthritis. The night she was diagnosed was the only day in two years that she cried to me.<br>It was only two months after that, that she had her affair. Imagine that!<br>Her eating habits are much better, now. Although she still does not eat enough, her junk food consumption has dropped. Her weight and looks are a major issue with her. This is part of her mid-life crisis.<br>As for her acknowlegment of depression. She knows. Her therapist keeps telling her he will be visiting her in the hospital if she doesn't take medication. But, she still refuses. She won't give me any explanation or reasons. Even though she knows she is in a depression, she also beleives that her life has no hope of happiness.

I'm sorry to hear that your wife thinks that there is no hope of happiness in her life. Unfortunately that is often one of the bad things that happens to depressed people. Either that or they blame their unhappiness on their spouse and seek to find happiness elsewhere ... it sounds like your W started there and then, discovering that an affair didn't make her feel happier, went on to feel that there was no hope.<p>There are a few books available on amazon.com which deal with living with a depressed person. I wish you the best ... maybe you can sprinkle three capsules of St. John's Wort on her breakfast cereal? <p>terri

Terri,<br>Breakfast cereal? That would be to healthy!

Terri and Bill:<p>We're not really sure what's causing all my wife's pain. Our last doctor had diagnosed FMS, 'cause she had typical FMS syptoms, and she began therapy on that basis. But we became convinced that there was more involved--even took a trip to the Mayo Clinic last winter. Last summer we changed docs. This guy sent her to a specialist, who doesn't think she has FMS at all, and tried a experimental therapy which hasn't worked. Now this specialist has sent her to another specialist. The new guy wants to try that nerve-severing thing you mentioned.<p>Like Bill, it seems we see a new specialist or try some new therapy every 4-5 months. Nothing seems very effective, and meanwhile the syptoms slowly get worse. She also sees a psychologist (psychiatrist?--I can't keep the difference straight), for the depression and medications.<p>And my wife feels like yours, Bill. "If I feel this bad now, how much worse will it be when I'm 50, 60, 70?" She doesn't see any hope for the future. And sometimes isn't sure she wants to go on.<p>So, sometimes my Giver says: "Take care of her, you can't expect much in return now, so don't expect it. Be strong, and keep looking for medical answers. They're out there, somewhere."<p>And other times, my Taker says: "This sucks! What do you get out of this marriage? Not much!"<p>My Taker also likes to remind me of what happened soon after this pain/depression thing started. I have no proof, but a lot of coincidences make me wonder if my wife had (at least) an emotional affair. Of course, it may just be my Taker viewing things in the worst possible way, but I don't know.<p>Well, I guess I've droned on long enough. Think I'll go get some cheese to go with my whine!