I have never posted on this forum, I primarily post on the Pregnancy/Child forum due to my wife's affair and resulting pregnancy. My W is still in lala land and I am still Plan A'ing. I have tried all logical means of persuading her to come back (we have been separated since D-day..3 mos. ago), but she is still talking to OM and feels obligated to him since she is carrying his baby. What I need is some advice about what divorce really does and affects the children. We have a girl 7, and boy 4, and I want it made clear to my W what we can expect if she doesn't come to her senses and help me repair our marriage. I know what I've read about the problems children have after divorce, but when an affair is the reason doesn't that add to the confusion that children have? Any advice and suggestions that I can give my W would be greatly appreciated. I think the fog will lift eventually and she will see the great turmoil she has caused, but I just want to try and avoid that and show her the consequences now, before it's too late.<BR>Floored

Floored,<P>well, you won't be able to teach her anything, sorry to say. she stopped listening to you awhile ago, and you didn't<BR>realize it.<P>My suggestion to you with the best interests of you kids at heart, as your kids really are young, is to get references to the best child head doctors you can find, and start now. don't wait.<P>My advice to you is to start educating yourself on the possible future that lies ahead of you, co-parenting, single parenting, spend your free time learning to be the best parent you can, because right now, the kids need you to help them understand what is going on with mommy.<P>Don't talk badly about the mom, just talk sensibly, and don't talk right or wrong, talk differences. talk learning from mistakes, talk about making decisions, but mostly talk about understanding differences. and talk that you aren't going anywhere, and that you won't abandon them, but always talk in positive terms.<P>good luck,<P>WIFTT<BR>

Good advice from WIFTT. <BR>My daughter is sixteen, is doing very well, and her mom and I have been apart for ten years. The key is both parents being involved in parenting, which means living close together, close to the schools, and close to your children's needs. I've friends in the area whose dad's or mom's literally moved across the country. Needless to say, they do have issues, and it's been a lot more difficult for the children. That's just not responsible. <P>Regards,<P>Jon

Floored,<BR>I echo what WIFTT and Jon have said. I got my kids(they were 8 & 11 when x left) into counseling right after I got me into it. I took my s to mine and x took d to another.<P>My s's main concern was where was he going to live. Once that was explained, he was content(I kept the home and the kids live with me). My d has had some problems, but Counselor says d has issuses with her mother and they need to work them out, so I am out in cold here.<P>I notice that my s wants very much to be close to his sister. Since she is a "cool" 7th grader she doen't want anything to do with a dorky little brother. So he goes ofr negative attention, which irrates her even more. I blame it on x being gone and his need for a "womans" touch around the home. S will be 10 on 12-4.<P>Educating the WS is considered a love buster. My x said it would be worse for the kids to see us in a loveless marriage if she stayed for the kids. So she had no plan on staying for me. After I saw that I agreed I didn;t want her around if she wasn't here for all of us.<P>Sorry you have to go through all this.<P>God Bless,<P>Bob

Maybe the kids have a chance of making it through without major psychological problems if both parents remain parents, but that rarely happens. The OP has a vested interest in making sure that doesn't happen, and the WS is usually more concerned with not antagonizing the OP than with what is best for the kids. Obviously if they cared about what was best for the kids, they wouldn't have had an affair and left their family in the first place. Given a choice between living with the OP and living near their kids, you know which the WS will take. WS's don't care about what is best for the kids - they care about what makes them feel good right now. If the OP gives them a hard time about spending time with their kids, they will eventually virtually cut them out of their lives. <P>Yeah, they start out visiting the kids regularly, sometimes. But it tapers off more and more, and they blame it on the kids or the spouse. He even blames the fact that he has only called the kids a few times in over a year and a half on them, because "they don't have much to say."

I fought against the idea of divorce for a long time believing my ex would see the light, that it would be better for the kids not to divorce, etc. He was seeing a psychologist at the time, who happened to be the same one our son was seeing, so needless to say I was able to benefit from that. The psychologist's take on it all was that divorce was better psychologically than the limbo the kids and I were living in at the time. And, as it turns out, he was right. Kids are resiliant - more so than we adults are. If divorce is the route you two choose, do your best to remain on friendly terms and continue to work together for the benefit of the children. Children will remember and emulate how the two of you react to one another, whether it be civil or bitter. Good luck.

To say that "kids are resilient" in a gross overgeneralization. Some kids are resilient; many are not. There is research that shows that over half of children of divorce experience serious psychological problems 5 or 10 years later related to the divorce. <P>My kids have never complained of "being in limbo" - but, even though they knew that the judge would grant my H a divorce, they were heartbroken when he did, and the 8 and 11 year olds sobbed uncontrollably. <P>His oldest 3 children have lost all respect for him. His oldest ones will not even speak to him. They do not even want me to refer to him as their father, because he is not their father anymore according to them. They feel the betrayal at least as much as I, and they believe that adultery is unforgivable. One of the children once said that he obviously hated me more than he loved them. His younger children beg him to spend more time with them, and he refuses. He blames them or me for the fact that he "can't" spend more time with them. He gives one excuse one week and another the next, and some of the children have long since stopped trusting his word about anything. <P>Divorced parents rarely "work together". They are no longer a team. The WS and the OP are now on the opposing team. The goal of the OP is to severe all connections with the WS's previous life, and to make sure that his children annoy her as little as possible. The goal of the WS is to avoid antagonizing the OP. Whatever child-rearing philosophies he used to have are out the window now - now I am trying to co-parent with a stranger, a stranger who has taken on all the parenting philosophy of the OP as his own - a philosophy that a couple of years ago he would have had nothing to do with. It is not possible to co-parent effectively after divorce because the WS is not the same person that he was as the H. He is now little more than a clone of the OP, and I have no desire to co-parent with her. <P>I always thought that divorce was terribly harmful to children, but it is FAR FAR worse than I ever imagined it could be.<P>This is NOT the place to be if you are looking for support for your marriage. There is little support here for marriage. The tone of the divorced/divorcing forum is very different from that of some of the other boards on marriage builders. I would recommend going to General Questions or Plan A/Plan B, etc.

What is so bad about teaching the kids right from wrong...<P>Yes... always love the person who has done the wrong... <B>always</B>!!!<P>But to pretend there is no negative effect to what a WS (or X) has done... and more importantly <I>is doing</I>...<BR>...is to say to our children...<BR>...when you grow up... you to can to this "evil"... and there will be no consequences...<P>...and isn't that the biggest lie of all!<P>I pray for your strength when you are dealing with your children!<P> <P>Jim

I hope I am able to teach my child that there is no right way to do the wrong thing...<P>Bill

I think I was more than a little misunderstood here. I see and listen to so many people who are so angry and so bitter that it's perfectly understandable how some people would believe that remaining in a dysfunctional relationship is for the best. You know what they say... the devil you know is preferable to the devil you don't.<P>That does NOT mean that divorce is good. It also does not mean that it's good to stay in a bad relationship because we think it's "better for the kids". It's NOT.<P>Children will emulate what they see. If they see one parent abuse the other, lie, cheat, shout, etc., that behavior becomes the norm and that is what they will learn. Likewise, if they see their parents interacting in a positive manner, they learn that that is the proper way.<P>Having your family break up - no matter how "good" or how "bad" it was - is undoubtedly one of the most painful things that can happen to a child. And to the parents. But that DOESN'T mean that the children and the remaining parent are automatically doomed to a life of despair. <P>Every situation is different. Just because dad (or mom) runs off with someone else does not mean that it is inevitable that they will stop being a parent. Or that they will continue. Heck, being married doesn't mean they'll be a parent!<P>What really matters is what those who are left behind DO <I>in spite of</I> what has happened. What example do we set for our children, who are scared, grieving and angry to say the least? Sure, we feel the same, but do we show them love, forgiveness and respect? Or do we teach them anger, bitterness and hate? Do we grow past it and help our kids to do the same? Or do we decide that we can never move forward and thus become one of those statistics?<P>I've seen it both ways, and I can only speak of kids who I grew up with and those I know now. Those who live with a parent who can't seem to grow past it all are, for the most part, the ones who seem to be in trouble most of the time. (And, interestingly, those who live in dysfunctional two parent households are right there with them!) Those who have parents who, whether married or divorced, work together seem to have much less difficulty getting along, as do the kids who I know live with one single parent whose ex isn't around. The difference is that parent's attitude, which more often than not mirrors that of their kids.<P>Yes, every situation is different. But I really think it all has much more to do with what we, as parents, do with the situation rather than letting the situation do with us.<p>[This message has been edited by Patient (edited December 02, 2000).]

Patient,<P>The point is not "staying in a bad relationship." That implies that there is something inherently wrong with the relationship that the parties would be powerless to fix - and that is almost never the case. If two people loved each other enough to marry, the foundation is there. It doesn't ever disappear. The point is that it is FAR, FAR better to improve the relationship than to give up.<P>And, at least in the case of male WS's, running off with the OP DOES usually mean the father stops being a parent. Someone posted the results of a study a month or so ago, one of the conclusions of which was that when the father entered a new relationship (whether an affair or not), the quality of his relationship with his children was largely dependent on whether his new partner encouraged or discouraged it. The vast majority of OW's want the MM to completely forget his past, and that generally includes his children.

Patient:<P>I agree with you regarding divorce. Nobody wants it but unfortunately it happens all the time. My x husband and I fought all the time in our marriage, my 4 year old (now 6) couldn't stand it and started asking us not to fight. That was when we started going to counseling 2 years ago. I knew that my x and I had to put an end to the fighting so we started going to counseling to see if we could turn things around for the kids sakes and ours. He decided he didn't want to try anymore earlier this year, that he thought we both would be better off divorced. He also said that he didn't think the kids were benefiting from us staying together.<P>I argued with him that it was better for us and the kids to stay together if we could learn to communicate, etc. He wouldn't change his mind. He was interested in pursuing other interests at the time. So, we finally ended up divorced. We have been able to have an amicable relationship. We live close by, we share custody, we work with each other on issues. And, I know that many of you will find this hard to believe, but I really mean it when I say that the kids actually seem happier now and almost unaffected. Our home was a verbal battle zone and not a great environment for them to grow up in. Now, when the kids are with each of us separately, they get one on one attention and they don't have to deal with the fighting. <P>I'm not saying that they are glad we are divorced, many times they are sad, especially during the transition time when they go from one parent to the other. But overall, it hasn't been a total disaster for them.<P>I really do think that each situation is different. But, I also think the most important thing is to love your kids, listen to them, watch them, talk to them, be with them. If they get that from both parents (whether married or not), that is what makes the difference in how they turn out.

Patient said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If they see one parent abuse the other, lie, cheat, shout, etc., that behavior becomes the norm and that is what they will learn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But if the parent does this while married, it is not likely divorce will improve the situation. My H has lied far more since he left than he did while at home, even including the lies he told while carrying on the affair. Now he has additional reason to lie; now he is lying to the children as well, especially in regard to why he won't see more of them. <P>Sure, if both parents live close together, do things with the kids together, don't introduce the kids to any new partners, get along fine - in other words act as if they are still married except they sleep in separate houses - maybe the kids will do ok. But that is not likely to happen. Among other reasons, OW's or even new partners who came along later are not likely to allow the parents to have that close of a relationship. <P>Of the people I know whose parents divorced, almost all of them have been seriously emotionally affected. Almost all of them have trouble maintaining relationships, some have had children outside of marriage. I know no one who has not been seriously affected. Maybe if you are lucky you won't see it when the kids are little, but the ramifications will appear later when they approach adulthood.<P>There is a great deal of statistical evidence to show that non-custodial fathers rarely maintain much of a relationship with their children after divorce. Within a few years after divorce, most of them are seeing their children once a month or less. If you are one of the lucky cases where the father is still very involved with the children, you should enjoy it while it lasts, but I don't think it is wise to count on it remaining that way permanently. <P>

For all who have responded, thank you. I need to remind you that I am the father..trying to make the mother understand what she is doing to me and the kids. Is there any evidence that my W will not be involved with the kids..especially after she has the OC? Will she pour out all of her love to this new child and neglect her other two children? I don't see that happening, but I also never thought she would have an affair either.<BR>Floored

Patient,<P> I have to agree with what you have said..... I think if you make a consorted effort to remain in close proximity, remain civil, and keep in mind the children need both of you......REGARDLESS OF YOUR PERSONAL GROWN UP FEELINGS.I have many issues with my stbx husband, but the fact that we have 3 beautiful children together means more to me than all these issues.I wish we could have had a marriage that was mutually satisfying for both of us, but unfortunatly it wasnt, and we were continuing to hurt eachother, and our children each day. I was kind of hoping the separation would make him realize what it was I wanted, or needed, but even if he did figure it out , I would be the last person he would ever want to share that information with. I know the purpose of this web site is to keep marriages together, but I do beleive things happen for a reason. I am hoping that through my divorce, I can show my children that animosity is not a way of life. I want them to know it is ok to take a deep breath and relax in life. It is ok to not be perfect, and to have fun, because life is too short. I received an email the other day , one of the statements on it was "On the day you were born you were crying , and everyone around you was smiling, When you die, all you can hope is you will be the one smiling, and everyone around you will be crying" It is very hard, as it was for my husband to realize that the love we did share as a couple had been slowly disolving for years, not that either of us wanted it to, but it happened , and it is hard to place your faith in someone when you have had your needs stomped on for a long time. The point I am trying to make is , yes, it is optimal to stay married, and if you can have a good marriage it is wonderful. It is not good to stay in a marriage where one or more partners have no respect, or love for eachother. In the cases of affairs , which seem to be the majority of posts here....... take it from a spouse who resisted the temptation for a very, very long time, tried to make it good at home, abused myself out of frustration by running from an unhappy marriage...... most people do not have affairs just for the kicks!!!!! It usually arises out of a need that is not being met, and the willingness of someone to fill it. I am not saying it is a good thing, but sometimes people do not even know what it is they are lacking until they get it. Well, time for me to get off my soap box.......

PS<BR>Floored,<P>I wanted to post to you first, and got sidetracked. I am saying a prayer for you, and your children that you will all be able to find the inner strength to handle this situation. I cant imagine that your wife will abandon her "old" children for the other man. I guess the best prayer will be that she will continue to be there for the children, find whatever inner peace she needs to be a good Mom to all her children. If things do not work out for you, I wish you all the best, I bet this has been an awful time for you.I guess I am in a situation that I realized that no matter what happens, I am not going to die.....well, not yet, so I will handle it as it comes. ONE DAY AT A TIME, as they say.<BR>Good luck to you.I will be thinking of you

Nellie... I am truly sorry that your children's father is not living up to the expectations that you, me, or any other betrayed, custodial parent would consider appropriate. And - please don't take offense, because it's most definitely NOT intended as such - but how much of your children's attitude toward their father derived from what you yourself have told them and shown them? Your ex's lies and seeming not to want to be a father could stem from any number of things. How do you and the kids act toward him when he <I>does</I> have contact with you all? Regardless of the reasons why, nobody wants to be in a place where they don't feel welcome or wanted. At 7, 12 and 14, I think my kids are in the same general age group as yours. Yes, as he and I were in the beginning of the process it was extremely hard and I made a lot of mistakes. My oldest daughter was privy to waaay too much information and thus mirrored my own animosity. And, though I am now ashamed to admit it, I took great satisfaction in that. After all, what right did he have to the children's love and respect when he did so much to hurt <I>me</I>? But that was a hollow "victory" of sorts. It caused discord here in my own home, and my kids, my ex and me all suffered from my own selfishness. It wasn't until I let go of that anger, accepted the situation as one that I couldn't possibly change and began to move on with my own life that things began to change. Now that's not to say that life is picture perfect here, kids will be kids after all. But quite frankly I see my own kids acting as "normally" as neighbor kids who have both parents at home in what most would consider perfectly normal atmospheres. Statistics can be used to justify almost anything. I'd rather be in control of my own life than let the statistics be my guide.<P>And I'll say it again: If they see one parent abuse the other, lie, cheat, shout, etc., that behavior becomes the norm and that is what they will learn. Likewise, if they see their parents interacting in a positive manner, they learn that that is the proper way. The same holds true about how the remaining parent refers to the absent parent. If we are bitter, our children learn bitterness. If we are forgiving, our children learn forgiveness.<P>Floored... I would think that if your wife sees your household as a "safe" place, a place where she won't feel accused (nobody feels comfortable in an atmosphere that makes them feel guilty), doesn't see you falling apart (the guilt thing again), hears respect from her kids (which they will learn from you), then it will be much easier for her to remain in their lives if the unspeakable happens. Plan A, friend. Plan A.<P>711, nikkilynn... good luck to you!<p>[This message has been edited by Patient (edited December 03, 2000).]

floored,<P>It is certainly a possibility. I don't think there has been much as much research done on the relationships between non-custodial mothers and their children when they leave for an OM as has been done on the relationships between non-custodial fathers and their children - obviously the latter is a lot more common a situation. <P>My H was a devoted father who only a few years ago told a prospective employer that having the flexibility to spend time with his family was the most important thing to him. Now he allows the children to see him once a week for a quick dinner and visit him about 6 hours a month, even though they have begged him to spend more time with them. Once an affair begins, you can't predict anything about what the WS will do.

Thanks to all who responded to my thread. You have given me a lot of info to think about.<BR>Floored<BR>

Patient,<BR>The four youngest children act desparate for his love when he is around. The minute they see him they run and hug him, and regularly tell them they love him. I don't know what more he could ask for from them. The children who have lost respect for him let me know it, but not him. I don't know what more he could ask for from the kids - but then again, he has. He complained to them once that they don't call and rarely email him. He has called them approximately 3 times since he left a year and a half ago, and he only emails them on rare occasions. I encourage them to email him, but there is only so much I can do. These children are doing all the work to try to maintain a relationship with their father. If he doesn't feel wanted it isn't from the children's lack of effort. <P>I have been consistently polite and friendly to him. My oldest daughters have told me on numerous occasions that I am nuts to act nice to him. One of my oldest daughters stopped speaking to him the night he left. She immediately figured out that he was having an affair, but kept that knowledge hidden from me for over a month. I had no idea why she was feeling such animosity toward her father until I found that out.<P>When our oldest daughter asked where he had met the OW, he told her that he had advertised on the Internet for "someone to talk to" and he chose to volunteer the information that this was not the first time he had done so. And you wonder why she might be feeling a bit of animosity toward him? The final straw was when he suggested that she drop out of college for a year, because he wasn't going to go any deeper in debt so she could continue. <P>There are not "lots" of reasons why my H is acting this way toward the children. There are only a couple. People who are depressed do not feel worthy of love, and no amount of love can not make them feel loved. And of course the primary reason that he spends little time with them is that the OW does not want him to, and he will do anything to avoid antagonizing her. He came right out and said that he would do whatever was necessary to avoid disrupting the atmosphere in her home. <P>I read in another post that your ex-husband is not living with an OW. There is no comparison between the two situations. Things might be very different if he were. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited December 06, 2000).]