that I get stuck with the s*** details in this mess!? I mean, I'm the one that deals with the particulars first. I got to drag out of my STBX the who, what, and why's of her affair! I had to initiate counceling! I am the one who moved out, so she could decide what she wanted! I am the one that really took time find out the exact nature of what was wrong with my marriage! I am the one that had to file for our divorce! And all the while she is living in her fantacy world with her LRB! Maybe I enabled her....I don't know.<P>Now tonight I had to watch myself break my dear sweet daughters heart!<P>She asked me if I would help mommy put up her x-mas lights. I said I wasn't going to and was told I'm mean. I explained that I am not responcible because me and mommy are no longer together. She asked if we were still married and if I was mommy's husband. I was honest and said no. I literaly watched my d's perception of her world totaly change before my very eyes! Her little lip curled up and began to quiver, tears rolled down her cheeks as the reality crashed into her. She asked me twice if I were mommy's husband and both times I said no. She asked if mommy was moving into the new house, I said no. This produced sobs from her. I started sobbing myself because of her wrecked little world. All this happened as we sat in a resteraunt waiting for my take-out and then in the car.<P>I really wanted to tell her the WHOLE truth, but I don't want her to resent her mother more than she does now.<P>I'm really pissed that A: I wasn't clear to her about things. and B: her mother is just loving life in her happy-[censored] self-serving little world just enjoying up a storm!!!!!!!<P>OOOOO....I can't wait to tell Robin about this...hopefully I won't get too angry and say things that will upset the peace between us. I mean I could get ugly but I want this ending to be as spiritual as possible.<P>Anyhoo...That's the latest in my saga....Thanks for allowing me to share.<P>I love You Guys,<P>Bill<P><P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

Oh man Bill, I know exactly what you're going through with your D. Mine is the same way, she still cries herself to sleep. I've done and said nothing to cause her to resent her mother for anything and yet she does now. She asked my mom the other day if her mother divorced her brother's father,(her first husband) and of course you have to tell her the truth. That simple statment seemed to seal her mother's fate in her eyes and there's nothing I can do except tell her that her mother still loves her very much, at least I think she does.......Jax

Bill,<P>Don't feel bad about not being clear about things. I told my kids more than once before I went to court that the judge would probably grant their father a divorce that day. But it did not "prepare" them - when I told them that the judge had, they sobbed and sobbed. One of them then yelled at me, telling me I shouldn't have made her unhappy by telling her. <P>Kids are resilient - yeah, right.

I agree with Nellie, its never clear. How can they ever understand when their entire world falls apart.<P>I think its is the hardest part of the divorce for all of us as parents. My kids will be 4 year "veterans" soon, and they still have hopes of a reconciliation. <P>It does seem to be the case that the betrayed sees the absolute horror of the situation, while the betrayer says "they'll get over it." We all know they never really do - they may accept it because they have too, but they never get over it.<P>I am sorry to hear of another innocent victim William. Do what you can for her little breaking heart.

Although our kids are doing great, mostly because I have spent alot of time with them, and I live very close, and X and I go to all kids activities together, and we are very friendly to each other.<P>But I was the one who told the kids because X would butcher it. But one concept I got across to the kids, that dads and moms don't have to be married to have kids. some dads and mom never have married. the point to them is not husband and wife, but mom and dad. moms and dads love them whether they are married or not.<P>I know it breaks their hearts, but stress the mom and dad concept, not the husband wife concept. make sure you tell them husband wife is irrelevant.<P>In my speech so to speak, i talked about differences, that mom and dad are so different that it was hard to live together, which is true. and i also stressed that they should each look at the differences, and pick the best ones for themselves, learn from both of us the differences, and then decide for themselves.<P>This approach only works if coparenting works. Now X and I have gone to every parent teacher conference except one, and i constantly see only moms going of married people. I go to all children events, as does X, even now, and we sit together. and we talk together, and chat, we try to be mature adults, not to hold hatred for the benefit of the children.<P>and yes, i drag X to the social worker/counselor, and complain about her parenting in front of someone who is an "expert" and can testify in court, which scares the crap out of her.<P>so those are the co-parenting skills we have, and let me tell you, it was great to hear the other day how X finally reinforced to the kids how my concepts are correct concepts, even though she, X, doesn't see them. <P>It is alot of work, but you have to continue to stress love, parenting, moms and dads. that's what the kids want to hear, and they should hear it.<P>I know it doesn't apply to all situations, but i actually don't want to tell our kids when we are divorced for awhile, that way, we can say we have been, and they didn't even notice the change. hopefully that will make them understand that whether we are or not doesn't make a difference, its only a legal document.<P>hope this is food for thought, and helps someone somewhere, however, it only respresents what has worked for us, and may not help any one else.<P>good luck<P>WIFTTy<P>

Don't get angry, Bill. And don't tell her the full deal--she is too little to understand--and later on, the situation may very well change. Her mom is her mom forever--regardless of what she has done. There is always a chance for repentance and forgiveness in the future on everyone's part. But right now, if you tell her, you may cause a wound for the rest of her life which will not be necessary.<P>My story:<BR>I guess my situation was a bit different--I did tell my little son. For me and my son, the affair being revealed was what actually healed us; he (and I) had no idea why dad had abandoned us, and he suffered terribly while dad was out making whooppee with Miss Kitty while he had a free babysitter (me.) My boy loved his dad very much--and at age three and a half, could not concievable understand why his dad had disappeared. Dad didn't call for weeks at a time. He didn't write.<P>He visited at Christmas for a week or so, acting strangely (still no idea what was going on, but we welcomed him so enthusiastically that it bordered on the absurb.) We got dad a decorated birthday cake that my son carefully chose--batman and robin on it--and presented with pride. And Christmas gifts for dad, that my son helped wrap and put under the tree. I remember we all went together to see "Jack Frost," the movie about a little boy who's father dies and comes back as a snowman, and how my son sobbed!!! at the end when the dad goes back to heaven forever (my son doesn't cry about anything!) Dad sat in the theater after the movie ended and held him while he cried. Then went back to Miss Kitty a week later with little regard to that moment.<P>I was in and out of developemental pediatrics with my kid--he was tentatively diagnosed with mild autism. At four, he was not toilet trained and showed no sign of being even close to the concept. The temper tantrums were horrible--for both of us. I ended up crying as much as my son did in trying to deal with him. I remember once sitting in my livingroom watching him darting back and forth, growling and snarling like an animal. He abused other children at daycare. He was uncontrollable at home. His teachers were stunned at his behavior, and teachers see it all, do they not? <P>In an attempt to get my son to use the toilet, the psychologist interviewed us to find out what positive things had happened in his life that we could use as a Pavlov-type of reinforcement. My son told her about the day that I had driven out to the drop-zone to watch my husband do some jumps with his recon platoon--how his daddy jumped out of a helicopter in the sky and landed on the ground, then walked over and had given him a hug. <BR>The plan was each time my son used the toilet sucessfully, he was given one of those little plastic soldiers to put into his pocket to remind him of his daddy.<P>Took about a week, and my son stayed dry all day. Another two or three weeks, and he stayed clean all day--another month, and the bed stayed dry all night. Of course, I had 50 thousand plastic soldiers to step on around the house.<P>This is how much my son's father means to him.<P>When dad came back to us for another month, this is what I got: "What did you do to him? Can't I trust you to take care of him? Why is he going to the shrink? Can't you handle him? Blah blah blah." Whatever.<P>I, myself, a soldier, was dealing with an upcoming tour in Korea which meant that I would have to leave my son with his grandparents. I was told by my command that I should not leave my son in his state (his behavior was so bizarre that I had been referred to a social worker to investigate possible abuse of my son on my part--yeah, ME! the one who raised him alone and lovingly--the abuser, and of course, my command was involved with that.) <P>Yet, my husband was threatening with divorce and I needed the employment the army offered me as a way to provide for my children. What to do???? I was overwhelmed with the decision that I would have to make. I leaned toward staying in the army and going to Korea for the long-term good. My husband constantly criticized me--dogged me--for not making my son a priority. He told his girlfriend--who had just abandoned her own daughter to live with him--that I was a s****y mother. Said that I treated my son like sack of potatoes. (While I had been his sole parent for 9 months, dealing with his problems by myself.)<P>Well, a year and a half later, now we know why dad split--and I did tell him why so that he would understand that dad did not leave because he didn't love HIM. He left because he didn't love ME, his mom. Yes, I know that it was wrong, but I guess it was the lesser of two evils. I know that my son is at peace with this. To the point where he tells me that I should marry someone else that does love me, while he maintains that dad is still dad, no matter what.<P>(By the way--the "autism" is all gone--my son is a brilliant kindergartener and a delightful little man.)<P>I guess, if my reasoning is wrong, it's too late. But I know that my son understands the why of the situation, and it is better for him.<P>To be honest, part of me did tell him out of my own disgust, and that part, I DO regret. That should not happen, and I am proof.<P>But for your little one, Bill--protect her innocence. It's a cruel world out there, and you are only a little girl once. You are her parent, protect her from the things that will hurt her. Make her childhood a happy, carefree one (that is so rare in this day and age.) Love her, play with her, hold her, make sure that she knows how much you adore her. And be good to her mom. The best way to show a child that you love them is to (ideally--love) show respect to their other parent. Half of her is you, and half of her is her mom--if you are to show love for your little girl, appreciate the part of her life that is comprised of her mom.<P>Your anger and the injustice of this situation is not worth your little girl's peaceful childhood, and you know that.<P>End note--I saw in an e-mail where my husband's girlfriend was begging him for his pledge of loyalty to her. He, on his part, was bemoaning the fact that being in contact with his son also meant being in contact with ME, the Predator, which spoiled his relationship with HER. Miss Kitty spewed forth this little gem in reply: "Remember, Nanouschka--you only divorce your spouse. You don't divorce your child." <P>What a total retard.<P>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited December 02, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited December 02, 2000).]

Bill,<P>(((((((BILL)))))))!!!!<P>It feels like you were the one to break her heart since you were the one who told her the truth. But in the long run, she will realize who did what. <P>Just be there for her. Hold her when she cries and answer her questions. And I agree with Bernzini...don't say bad things about her mother. Keep her childhood as happy as possible given the situation. <P>Take care,<BR>Mitzi

{{{Bill}}},<P>My heart goes out to you...<P>...but you know it too... the truth will set you free.<P>As age specific as you can for Abbey...<BR>...let her know (over time) that you are telling her the truth...<P>...don't cushion or make easy the truth...<P>...don't let another generation of youth grow up to accept "adultery is OK"...<BR>...the media seems to plug this theme to no end...<BR>...and let everyone know... there are temporal consequences to it!<P>Yes... divorce has to happen (at times)...<BR>Yes... love both parents... mom and dad...<BR>Yes... accept the love of both parents...<P>But... help her recognize right from wrong...<BR>...and chastise the wrong... no the person...<BR>...see the wrong for what it is...<BR>...don't sugar coat what is wrong... not who is wrong.<P>Let Abbey know you're praying for your W...<BR>...and that's how God would like you to help her.<P>I'm praying for you... and Abbey... and Robin.<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited December 02, 2000).]

Thanks everyone for your replies. It is nice to know I'm not alone!<P>I pretty much have done what each of you mentioned.<P>A funny note on this. Last night when we got home, Abbey went into my Sister's room and said "I'm sad."<P>S asked, "Why?"<P>"Because my Dad isn't my mom's husband anymore. Are you sad?"<P>S replied, "Yes, I am sad."<P>Abbey then burped and walked out of their room! <P>Too funny!!!!!<P>Anyhow, thanks for listening.<P>Bill

{{{{{{{{{BILL}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I know how you feel. My ex is passing my kids off to OW's MOTHER so he can take OW on an anniversary weekend on Dec. 16. One year. Funny how time flies. Funny how you can have a one year anniversary then tell me you left on xmas in a state of confusion. How do I explain that to my brilliant kids/??<P>I think girls take things differently thats for sure.<P>Keep up the great job your doing, your a good dad and one day, you can sit her down and talk to her. Probably not til she's engaged, but I plan to do it.<P>Hugs, and good luck, Dana<BR>

{{{{{{{{{{{{{BILL & ABBEY}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>It breaks my heart too. I won't offer any advice... since I don't have kids, and I have no way to know what to say. I just wanted to tell you I'm thinking about you.<P>Sometimes I am thankful that God didn't answer my prayers for children.... maybe he knew I wouldn't be strong enought to go through this with them. I'm sorry that so many of us do have to go through this.... You are all in my thoughts & prayers.<P>Butterfly<P>------------------<BR>There are deep sorrows and killing cares in life, but the encouragement and love of friends were given us to make all difficulties bearable. <BR>-- John Oliver Holmes<P>The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.<BR>-- Elie Wiesel<P><BR>