I seem to remember someone here talking about a Madonna/Whore Complex which some men suffer from. Can anyone give me any information on this or tell me where to find some? Thanks, Lisa <br>

Lisa,<br> I have never heard about what you are talking about, but i'm wondering if you're refering to something my H recently talked about??<br> He told me this morning that i was no longer "fun", like when we met. Well, i said that "Yeah, i'm not always DRUNK and wild like i used to be." And i suddenly realized that the sexy, short-skirted, thong-wearing, beer-drinking,impulsive, bleach-blonde thing was what attracted him to me, and i'm sure that's why he now thinks that something is "missing" from our marriage. He also said "well, now you're so professional" (which i am a professional and certainly have to act like it most of the time).<br> I don't know if this is what you're talking about or not, but i'll be reading others' responses to find out!

Lisa, I just realized that I can probably explain a little bit. I don't know exactly what causes it - childhood issues, probably.<p>Essentially the man wants a pure and perfect wife ... someone untouched and innocent. But as a sexual partner, he wants a slut - someone who will be aggressive, has a lot of experience and will try anything. Generally, you can't have both in one person - so these men marry a "nice" girl and then sleep around.<p>Hope this helps.<p>terri

I think that for the most part Terri is right, except...<p>I'd have to disagree about the part about not being able to have both in one person. A woman doesn't have to have lots of experience with other men in order to fulfill this common fantasy. Sexuality is part of a woman's being, whether by nature or as a result of a concerted effort. I believe most women accept what feels natural (comfortable) and right to them. They make little effort to expand their sexual horizon.<p>For most men, sexual fulfillment is usually high on their list of needs. Thus, they have high (and sometimes unrealistic) expectations. The more a wife can do to meet those needs, yet staying within the bounds of her moral convictions, the more satisfied her husband will be. She can be a "professional", almost puritanical saint in the eyes of the world and even close friends, but if she's adventurous and daring behind closed doors (I hate the term "slut"), her husband will think he's the luckiest man alive.<p>Don't say it feels uncomfortable or unnatural unless you're willing to accept your husband saying the same thing about working harder at fulfilling your need for more conversation, affection, etc. Although it's a different need with different rules and expectations, the basic principle is the same. Make an effort to meet his need and he'll probably try harder to meet yours.<p>Don't know if this helps or not -- just wanted to get in at least one response from the male point of view .<p>

slowlerner - I really meant that the man with the "complex" believes that you can't have both in one woman. That's why these men tend to infidelity.<p>terri

Lisa:<p>I'm pretty sure we're talking about (at least) 2 different tendancies here. Like Terri, I think that 'Madonna/Whore Complex' refers to the tendancy of SOME unmarried guys to view 'date-able' women in 2 ways: Madonnas or Whores.<p>Whores are desireable to such guys 'cause they've been around the block, and they're willing to go around again, and be a 'tour guide' along the way. Double benefit: builds the guy's prowess, and provides a release for all that testosterone.<p>But such 'men' (using the term loosely) don't want 'whores' for wives. They want a 'Madonna'--someone innocent, untouched, and unschooled, and to whom they can be the 'teacher', or some such machismo BS!<p>But I think what Slowlerner is referring to is something different, and is a desire/fantasy common to many husbands: regardless of her other roles, behind bedroom doors we want a 'tigress'. Unfortunately, life has a way of severely hampering our wives ability to be tigresses (and our ability to be tigers, for that matter!).

Doug - unfortunately, viewed from the perspective of relationship problems, the Madonna/Whore complex is not confined to just "some unmarried men." It has been cited as a factor in some major relationship problems. It is probably why there is almost a tradition among certain European cultures that men want a virgin to take as a wife and then maintain a mistress on the side. The wife represents the Madonna, pure and sexual only for the purpose of bearing children, and the mistress represents the whore, fun and sexual for the sake of being sexual.<p>I think that a lot of men (and women) are not aware that a wife can be willing to fulfill the "whore" fantasies if she is asked in the right way. I know that I would have been willing to try new things if my H had only communicated his fantasies to me ... I have some of my own. I also know that sexual fantasies are difficult to talk about, which may also be why some men seek the "whore" outside of their marriages - some of the "slugs" that unfaithful men seek out have only their sexual expertise going for them - they've had to learn all kinds of ways to please men, because most of them have nothing in the way of depth of personality or other redeeming virtues.<p>I better stop here ... I feel supreme disgust and hatred for the slug coming up ... sort of like breakfast on top of a hangover - UGH! <p>terri

LTaylor<br>I may have been the one you read regarding Madonna/Whore. It was a posting to Sherl in "men with low sex drives. My husband apparently was had been divorced 10 yrs and was very lonely yet he apparently had a list of things he was looking for in a mate. Independant, financially secure, good conversation, fun to be with etc. He was not looking for sexual attraction because he said in previous relationship that would pass and nothing would be left. I was divorced and just looking for a relationship with someone I had a lot in common with. I just took sex as a grain of salt. I never thought of marrying someone I did not have feeling for in that regard. So I was unspecting of what my H was looking for. We spent very sexual times together, therefore the fact that sexual attraction was not there for him towards me was a bit decietful. Don't get me wrong sex was a little difficule even then but when he said I have fallen in love for the first time, I just figured the sex sould get better...WRONG! In counseling my counselor says he treats me like the Madonna w/ purity and has me up on this pedestal. But he is sexually attracted to the Whore. Where does that leave me, I don't want to be on the pedestal. I just want to be a wife. I don't know if that Madonna/whore thing can be relearned. and yes I believe it is something from there childhood. But sexual women CAN be the Lady in the living room and the whore in the bedroom. That is what is so fun and across a crowded LIVINGROOOM you can make eye contact and know what will transpire in the bedroom. Any ideas from you guys on how to change the Madonna/Whore syndrome.

didi, have you read any books about increasing the enjoyment of sex in your relationship? There is one that comes to mind that is highly recommended "Light His Fire" - I'm sorry I don't recall the author at the moment.<p>I've read some really - ah - interesting suggestions - if you have AOL, go to the "Health" Channel and look for a link to relationship discussions or sex discussions and find "Dr. Glass" column. One of the things she told a person asking about how to "get the passion back" was about a friend of hers who went out with her husband to the store one night and just before they got in the car to leave, she showed him that under her coat she only had on a sexy bra and panties. While it's a little cold for that kind of thing where I live right now, it seems like it could be veeeerrrry intriguing for a man in love with his wife to walk around a store with her knowing she was practically naked under her coat...<p>There are lots of books out there about sex - some of them shock me (I'm not that shockable when I read stuff, usually), but many of them are very very intriguing. If I ever get an opportunity to try to sexually attract my H again, I will certainly try some of those things...<p>I believe that a woman certainly can be the tigress in the bedroom and a lady in public - I wish my H had given me the opportunity to meet his changing or increasing sexual needs - I'm not afraid of trying things - just wished he had let me know he might want to...<p>terri<p>terri

Thanks everyone for the responses to my post. I've been in Florida since I posted and just<br>got back today. The reason I asked this question is my husband (39) has absolutely NO<br>interest in sex. I feel like I'm constantly begging for sex and it doesn't do alot for your self-<br>esteem. If I'm lucky I might get sex once every couple of weeks. He's always been this way<br>to a large extent, but seems to slowly get worse with time. Anyway, the reason I asked the<br>question about this Madonna/Whore complex is the had the following conversation the other<br>night: (We were leaving the grocery store.)<br>Me: (as I'm putting Blistex on my lips) Do you want some Blistex? <br>Him: Yes, give it to me.<br>Me: Just a second, you can have it when I'm finished.<br>Him: Yeah, that's the way it always is. (he was obviously referring to sex)<br>Me: Well, yes that's why they say "ladies first". <br>Him: There is absolutely nothing ladylike about that. <p>At that point I said something like, "you're sick". A real love buster I'm sure. But, he doesn't<br>ever seem to want the "tigress" part of me. I just don't understand. I thought maybe it had<br>something to do with this complex thing, but it doesn't sound like it. Lisa

I found out that wy wife really is a "tigress", unfortunately it was ALL with the other man and not with me. If we ever get the opportunity, I'm afraid I will look like a "cub" instead of "king of the jungle". I'm 35 and although was married for 14 years and did have plenty of sex. I was never given the opportunity to try anything (if you know what I mean). What will happen if/when the opportunity presents itself. What if I don't measure up (so to speak).

R, a suggestion. Don't think so far ahead. Remember baby steps. I have gone through the section of the bookstore looking at the books on sex and so far, every time, I put them down. I am not there yet, and it is too painful to look that far ahead (my H and I haven't been intimate since the spring of 1997 - no that's not a typo). So, I'm trying not to think of that yet.<p>I do understand the feeling, though. My H started having some trouble in the spring of 1997 when we were being intimate, and I thought it was impotence. It hurt that he didn't seem to care about it, and several times he rejected my sexual advances. It took until this past September (1998) for me to find out for certain what was going on. And when I tried then to make a sexual advance, I was very clearly rejected. Since then, even when I've had some opportunity, I've not made any advances for fear of that kind of rejection again - not too much hurts worse.<p>So I do understand... try to put it out of your mind and concentrate on getting the emotional intimacy back into your relationship.<p>terri

Lisa:<p>You went to Florida and didn't invite the rest of us? I am truly hurt! (The wind chill outside right now is -40 F.)<p>A thought occurred to me as I read your post: Unless the use of Blistex has some sexual connotation I'm not aware of, it seems like he brought up a sexual innuendo 'out of the blue'. That may be a good sign--that is, he's at least having sexual thoughts. Could it be that he has a near-normal sex drive, but he's repressing it due to upbringing, traumatic past event, etc.? Maybe it was drilled into him as a child that a woman expressing her sexuality was 'dirty', or that sex itself was an unclean, unwholesome thing. I suspect that many women and some men are raised to think this way. Such a belief would conflict with a normal sex drive, causing confusion and frustration for both spouses.

Doug: Sorry about not extending the invitation to all to Florida! Sounds like you must be a long, long way from there at -40F. Wow! It's in the teens here in Tennessee and I thought that was bad! <p>I think you have brought up a very interesting thought in that he was thinking about sex! That's such an exciting thought. I know he had a horrible childhood and could very well have been sexually molested, though he has no conscious memory of it. Anyway, you've given me hope. Thanks, Lisa