I think my H might be the biggest one of all time. He left 3 months ago and hasn't talked to me since. He talks to his family about the weather. He didn't show up on Thanksgiving after he said he would be there.<P>So, do you have any ideas on how to get him to do something... anything? I was going on the premise that he needs some time, but maybe he will need a lifetime to make a move.<BR>Maybe it will just be as long as I can hold out then I will have to get a divorce. <P>I have been sending him non threatening notes, but as far as I can tell, nothing.<P>Seems like you may have a handle on this species. any suggestions for me?<BR>Lora

You probably won't like what I have to say. It's very un-Harleyish.<P>Our situations may be similar. My husband was never willing to talk about the situation. I tried Plan A and didn't bring up our relationship for a year. Neither did he. It's now two years later and he still won't talk about it, to me, his parents, or common friends. In fact, he dropped all our common friends and most of his family too. I still have good relationships with all of them. I still don't know what his problems were with me in the marriage, nor do I know what problems he perceives I still have. Apparently, he has been perfect since he's never apologized or admitted to any wrongdoing. He certainly hasn't tried to change anything in himself or asked me to change anything.<P>His parents are conflict avoiders so I think it's ingrained. It is also very unlikely to change. My opinion is the primary conflict they're avoiding is within themselves. It is completely out of character for my husband to have an affair. I don't think he could accept that's he's doing it and live with himself. So he paints a mental picture that everything is 100% my fault, that my goodness during Plan A was just to get him back so I could destroy him afterwards (he actually said this to me after a year of doing this), and basically lays out his life to avoid this topic altogether. He still has no relationship with our toddler, who he left behind as a newborn. The OW, btw, still hasn't met his parents who are local, still isn't present at our son's sports events, and they're still undercover at his office. As near as I can tell, he's not committed to her either.<P>I frankly think that Plan A is a huge time waster with someone like this. Sure, you can do it for a couple of months to demonstrate that you can be different, but after that it's just enabling the affair. It provides no incentive for them to change. My Plan A resulted in having a great, friendly relationship with my husband, who became convinced that he could have me as a friend and keep the OW, and that we would all be happy with it forever. Isn't that special.<P>But the sad part is, nothing you do is likely to cause a change. I believe that Plan B is the way to go with someone like this, not so much because it might "wake them up" to the loss, but because it forces you to go on with your own life and recapture your self respect. I think that someone with this degree of denial/ avoidance going on could take years to come out of it on their own, and it's possible he never will. They need counseling but of course won't go. Counseling would force them to talk about the situation and acknowledge their own role, the one thing in the world they won't do. Without it though, what will make them look inside?<P>So, I think Plan B, along with help from friends and family to get your husband to talk, are the best approaches. I firmly believe that someone, somewhere, has to provoke some degree of introspection within the avoider. Otherwise, they'll go forever with indecision. I also think this is where my husband's family has failed both him and me. It's the role of a parent to get involved. Just to be clear here, I'm not saying they should take sides or force an opinion down the throat of the infidel. But they should get him to talk about it and try to get him to see his own role in the drama. Even a good friend to him can play this role. My husband doesn't have that either.<P>I hope you don't have my situation down the road. My husband would never have divorced me so after two years, I filed for a divorce when I would have much rather worked things out. My love for him is completely gone. Too much fruitless Plan A killed it. He won't even acknowledge that the divorce is happening, he's never said a word to me about it and I filed back in August. Everything is through attorneys, even though I see him several times per week and we're amicable. He literally cannot say the word "divorce". It is truly amazing.<P>I wish you much better luck than I had. Try to stay clear with yourself that this is not about you, but completely about him. I know how painful the first year is, but I can assure you that the pain lessens with time. One way or the other, you will be happy again. I'll say a prayer for you.

You're right, I didn't like it. Not because its against Harleys principles, but because you stated my deepest fears of what will happen.<P>I don't think he will speak. Ever. I think you are right that he will continue to avoid it till I have to do something beause I can't live like this any more. He was never able to say divorce either. And he is in denial about the affair to himself and his family.. his Mom is now convinced its over he is such a good avoider. So I doubt that OW will be getting an invite to family events any time soon.<P>It was all my fault anyway. He said our marriage was everything for me, nothing for him. <P>The one thing I do have going for me is a sister in law that is confronting him about it and telling him he has to talk. Not that it has done any good so far. His Mom is not going to talk to him about it, she is a conflict avoider too. He does have on friend that is a talker, do you think I should talk to him and ask him to try and talk to H?<BR>Apparently he has also been talking to his amssage counseler since she knows about the seperation. I am temped to go see her and ask her about it.<P>I think you are right about the plan B . I do feel alot better and stronger then when he was living here and I was plan A and he was avoiding contact with me and carring out the affair. That stunk! And I thnk it could have continued, because I was the one who finally had to ask him to leave after he blatently lied to me and took her camping in our trailer.<BR>Thanks for the insite, any other advice would be appreciated.<BR>lora<BR>

I think it's to your long-term benefit to find people that he respects to get him to talk. It probably will be construed as a love buster, but I don't see much hope here unless he starts working through the issues. Just be careful about how you ask for the help. It shouldn't be to advance a position, or to try to get the friend or family member to get your husband to change his mind. It should be more from the perspective that your husband is someone that you love that you think needs a good friend to help him work through what has happened.<P>I actually did this with my husband's family 3 - 4 months into the separation. Asking them to do this was completely eye-opening. It exposed to them that my husband had told them a bunch of lies. He had positioned the separation as me throwing him out, and that I was the one who refused to reconcile or work on the marriage. They were floored when I asked them for help. They could immediately see who was telling them the truth as soon as they tried to bring the topic up with him. I didn't have to push my points at all.<P>Unfortunately, they too lack the skills to work this well. They too easily let my husband slide by without challenging him. I myself have thought the affair was over at least 3 or 4 times. They've never gotten an acknowledgment from him that there was/is an affair. I doubt they ever will.<P>Stay strong and don't neglect yourself during this crisis. It will probably be a long haul so plan accordingly.

Hi Lora and Distressed,<P>I don't mean to crash here, but when I read what you wrote Distressed, I was floored.<P>You could have been describing my ex-h, his family, and my situation. Exactly. Only you said in a way that I have never been able to. It was so jumbled in my own head and heart.<BR>Even the point about it being out of character for your H to have an affair. That hit the nail on the head for me. Never would I have believed my H would have an affair.<P>Thank you for what you said. It has made things a lot clearer in my mind, even tho I knew it all.<P>Could we talk some more. I need to feed my children their breakfast and get them to pre-school.<P>my best wishes to you both,<P>Jo

My e-mail is solarcalc@hotmail.com if you'd like to write privately. Best of luck.

Oh keep posting it here please so we all can benifit.<P>My H told his sister we were taking a vacation from each other to decide what we wanted. She was great, she called him on it and said , thats not true, Lora knows what she wants doesn't she. And he had to admit he knew I lovd him and wanted our marriage.<P>So, 2 out of 3 of us so far were not sussesful in making the marriage work with our H. Not very good odds for me.<BR>Lora

Hi All,<P>I found this post very interesting. I also believe that PlanA sometimes causes the WS to continue the A. I like to refer to the PlanA stage as the "Painted Smile" for the BS. We really don't want to smile and be supportive, while we hurt so much inside.<P>I am at the end of that long road. In fact, this Thursday would be our 9 year anniversary. I've been told that day will be the most difficult. <P>But, I feel very much the same about the PlanA. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Keep the Faith...the sun will shine again

Lora and Distressed - I didn't realize there were so many conflict avoiders (apathetic people)in the world - I've felt SOOO alone in this situation.<P> - Earlier today - I wrote this post and titled it "Apathy" - it FITS here - My husband avoids conflict - NO MATTER what I try to do - to bring about a conversation. It's always MY fault - no matter what is wrong. To my knowledge there is not another woman involved - but it wouldn't surprise me if there is, since HE never spends time on his days off at home - he's always got somewhere else to be.<P>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>Not sure how to deal with this. My H - is still living here - if you can call: sleeping, eating, and existing - living. He still comes here when he gets off work to sleep, eat, and hang... I've asked him to leave, but he says "we are married, we have kids, I'm staying." He's totally uninvolved in life here... This morning, the pipes were frozen - heat tape had been unplugged, by him and he forgot to replug it this fall, and he left for work without even commenting that the pipes were frozen - I wondered WHY he was washing his hair in the kitchen sink???? DUH He left me to deal with the frozen pipes. He's left me to deal with almost everything here at the house.... Yet he says HE WANTS TO STAY????<BR>Is there anyone else out there who wonders what the purpose is??? I am so frustrated. This morning - I asked him "How long are you going to 'pretend' everything is okay?" He said, "Pretend?" as if he didn't know what I was talking about. <P>We have four kids - they were avoiding him and ignoring him this weekend - because of what he did last weekend. He claimed he was sick all day Saturday, then Sunday morning rose up perky and feeling wonderful and went to help a 'friend' move. The kids wanted him to do something with them Saturday - then asked if he could do it Sunday. When he left to go help a 'friend' move, instead - they were extremely upset. I didn't add to it - I tried to downplay the problem, but this is the NORMAL way he treats them - something else ALWAYS come before me or the kids. (THAT's the reason for divorcing him - we never come first with him - I realize this is against all the basic principles of this board probably - but I can't live in this LIMBO world anymore - I want to SHARE life with my spouse - not avoid it.)<P>WE are moving back into a newly remodeled kitchen - and he hasn't yet lifted a finger - except when my dad was here and took apart the cook stove to clean all the nooks and crannies - my H decided to HELP - but after 15 minutes decided he'd done enough - Dad kept suggesting other parts for him to clean. <P>I'm having a hard time dealing with his apathetic reactions and behaviors. I've filed the papers for a divorce, but due to an unforeseen problem - it may be after the first of the year before I can get it in progress.<P>Any ideas how I can deal with this over the holidays...?<P>I've given up on making the marriage work - I just want to make it through the holidays without hanging him from the Christmas tree! <P><p>[This message has been edited by seekingjoy (edited December 11, 2000).]

I think different strategies are appropriate for different situations. I think the single biggest mistake I made was getting fed up with the situation and making my husband leave. I figured he'd see what was at stake and be back in a day or two. Instead, I made it very easy for him to blame me and take no responsibility. The truth is, as a major conflict avoider, he would have NEVER left on his own, just as he would never have divorced me. And once he was gone, the easy path was to stay gone. Always remember, they take the easy path wherever possible. I do firmly believe that my husband did everything in his power to get thrown out of the house and was tremendously relieved when I finally did it.<P>I don't think you'll get to him using a direct approach at this time. I'm not sure where you are psychologically based on your post. Is you love gone and do you want the divorce? Or are you divorcing him because you're fed up? My recommendation to you differs based on the way you answer.<P>What is clear is that he is probably provoking you, as my husband did to me. Certainly, he knows he's being a jerk and sticking you with everything. Telling him the obvious won't help. He's doing it on purpose. He's trying to get to you.<P>If you still want to save the marriage, I think I'd be inclined to give him what he acts like he wants - that is to ignore him. I'd make separate plans for the weekends with the kids, assuming he'll be busy. I'd arrange for dinner with friends, without him. Treat him like he doesn't live there, the way he's treating you. Find a way to make it tolerable without throwing him out. Don't fight with him, just try to live a happy life without him.<P>If he is the dreaded conflict avoider, throwing him out is probably the end of the game. Don't do it unless you really want out.<P>Write back and let us know what YOU want. That's the most important question of all.

Unfortunately, conflict avoiders do sometimes leave, if the OW tells them to. My biggest mistake was asking my H what was wrong - and I only got any answer at all after asking several times over a period of months. I think there is a good possibiity if I had never confronted, and never had a problem with his protracted disappearances, he would still be here. I certainly didn't throw him out - to the contrary, I asked him to not leave without telling me in advance, and he promised. A little more than 24 hours later, he called from work (after he had a chance to talk to the OW) to say he was not coming home. <P>Over and over again he has said one thing, even suggesting it himself, and then has turned around and said something else after having been overruled by the OW. <P>There is nothing worse than a conflict avoider with a controlling OW.<P>

yup, same pattern here.<P>My H said he was going to move for 4 months, but made no sign of it, I think he finally had to force me to ask him to leave by having OW into our home while I was out of town, and then taking her camping for 4 days in our trailer. I just couldn't put up with any more. I don't think I could have stood myself if I let him continue to stay here and treat me that way. I planAed for a long time with no results and that was the final straw.<P>I do not want him back if he can not make some changes. I won't go back to that disrepectful situation. I feel like if I force him to come back then he will not change. I feel like the only chance is if he wants to come back and wants to put some effort into it. Not much chance of that right? <P>Lora

I think I'm totally fed up and want a divorce - I'm really not sure - I just can't handle the situation as is anymore. I can't seem to operate on any kind of emotional basis. I try to enjoy time with the kids - assuming he's not going to be there - then he's there and tries to 'pull' the kids into some scheme that he's got going. Like last weekend - our seven year old was in trouble for throwing a temper tantrum - he told him it was okay, mom was just being mean. S threw a stick and hit D in the face. It was a full blown tantrum. <P>The weekend was a train wreck - and I was a basket case by Monday morning - I skipped work, then got into a really stupid situation with a friend - because I needed emotional support - now I feel like a total jerk. The friend expects to 'develop a relationship' and I was just feeling needy. I didn't mean to go where I went with the friend - it was way farther than I wanted to go - I just accepted a hug - as comfort, but he's expecting a lot more. Today, I met him after work for coffee, to explain... and he was just so understanding and accepting, and told me that he still feels very strongly for me and he will wait. I don't want him to wait for me - I don't want to have a relationship with him. I didn't ever want to - I was just accepting comfort from what I thought was a friend - but I work with him and now it's going to be very awkward. And it's my own stupid fault, just because I'm married to a jerk who is so apathetic that I'm lonely and feeling desperate. I'll manage to explain to the friend, maybe I'll ask for a transfer to a different department - if he appears to be embarrassed by the situation, I'm needing some changes anyway - this may be a great way to affect a change without uprooting my life. <P>I just can't handle H's reactions and actions anymore with the kids or with me. His parenting style is not only bad it's damaging to the kids, and his relational abilities are non-existant. I realize he has a responsibility to be a parent, and he's got a right to see the kids, but he hasn't got any right to say things like he said this weekend - or to denegrate my relationship with the kids.<P>I'm hurting so much right now - I'm not sure what I want - I just don't want to hurt anymore. I am so tired of feeling sad and lonely. I know there has got to be a better way to live. I'd rather be a single parent and deal with ALL of this stuff than to be a single parent and have to deal with ALL of this - and HIS crap too. <P>I'm feeling really sad this evening. I know H will be home late tonight - and I have no hope that we'll even communicate on any level, let alone as H and W. <P>I think this post was maybe more vent that questions - but I really would like any advice. I've read this post - it really sounds like my situation, a conflict avoider (H) married to me, a take charge person who deals with conflict in a straight forward manner - albeit - frustrated manner much of the time... <P><BR>

seekingjoy:<P>Boy, can I relate to how you feel! It's certainly no way to live.<P>I have some clear reactions to what you wrote, but mostly I think you'll need to do some soul searching.<P>The first part that is clear is that you are reacting emotionally to the current events in the household (duh). Obvious, but an important point. You don't want to let short-term, emotionally-driven reactions drive decisions that have long-term impact. I firmly do believe that if you throw him out of the house there is a very high likelihood he won't be back.<P>The second question is more soul searching. Are the current traits a CHANGE, or has he always exhibited this kind of behavior around the house and as a parent? If he has previously been a decent parent and husband, and if you did previously love him, I would argue that it is possible to achieve that again with time. If he hasn't, however, you have to really ask yourself why you'd want to keep him.<P>If your answer to these questions is primarily "I don't know", or "I'm fed-up", my advice is to avoid making any significant decisions on the marriage and seek counseling to figure out what you want. Divorce and separation are drastic steps that are difficult or impossible to undo.<P>In my case, I believe I had a 50/50 chance of saving the marriage if I kept my husband here, but it went to virtually no chance the moment I kicked him out. He is incapable of making a major decision, so is now floating on what the OW wants. My prediction is she's so far beneath him socially, intellectually and financially, that she'll keep him regardless of what he does to her, since he's the best she'll ever get. Since he'll never break-up with her, they could go on forever like this.<P>Find a way to calm down, detach, and plan your approach rationally. It's hard, but it can be done, especially with the help of a good counselor and/or terrific friend.

I really feel that this has been the normal - there's been no change - except in me. I've changed, it's no longer okay for me to carry the relationship, while he is off being 'a good ole boy' for all the other women in his life. It's no longer okay for me to get my support from friends and family when I NEED it from him. If I'm going to get all of my EN met by others, why should I keep him around. Why do I want to keep him around? I think that is the ULTIMATE question - and I believe the answer is that I don't want him around anymore. <P>He's threatened to leave - but he's so apathetic that he doesn't go. I've packed his bags and pitched them out the front door - he waits until I have to leave then comes back. It's like I can't loose this guy! He's always there, but HE isn't THERE! I filed the papers, and I honestly believe that unless he makes some real changes, he's just not worth the upkeep. As much as I STILL love him - I just can't continue living this way. I think if this were the high of the moment - I'd be emotional about it - I'm not. I'm feeling so placid about this decision, I almost don't recognize myself.<P>I've rewritten this three times, trying not to be 'mean' about it. I do love him, I care very much, but I can't live in this apathetic world he's created for us. I CARE and that one thing is NOT ALLOWED by him. <P>I've asked if I could live in this way forever, by myself??? I don't know. I know I can't live LIKE this anymore.

Seeking Joy,<P>I think there comes a point where you know that you can't carry it all by yourself anymore. I am starting to beleive he will not change, he doesn't even want to. Yes, our marriage could have potential... if he wanted it. But there comes a point where it does take 2. One person can start it, and can carry it for awhile, but not forever.<BR>I will wait a little longer, but I want him to make an effort... I dont want him to come back as the path of least resitance and just continue as he was.<P>Distressed, I dont know if you are right about keeping them in the house... if they deciede to stay , what is their motivation to change, do they just hang out till the next crisis occurs in the marriage then you have to deal with it all over again?<BR>Lora

A LOT of this sounds familiar.<P>My H is also a conflict avoider. And I've found out that the person he's having the affair with HAS been pushing him towards various things ---- manipulating him like a puppet. AND she's got help from his friends. And he's not talking with his family either. <P>But he has finally started talking. Marriage Counselling and therapy for his Anger. It took a month of Anger therapy for him to finally open up in marriage counselling. He still hasn't committed to putting our marriage back together, but we have a young daughter together....and for her sake we have GOT TO be able to communicate and clear the air --- minimum.<P>I'm hoping that it will lead to something much more. But he's still seeing her....so that's a ways off.<P>We meet again with the marriage counselor today. I'm hoping that he'll continue talking. Last time (the first time he's talked) it was just broad issues, nothing specific. But there is beginning to be a slow change in him....a VERY slow change.<P>So, all I can say is that it IS possible to get them to open up. It's just that YOU may not be the one to be able to do it. It was VERY difficult to get him into individual therapy, but I think that that has been the key to him opening up and beginning to express himself.<P>Another thing that may help is a Fred Pryor workshop I just attended: "How to Deal with Difficult People". It's based on the theories of Rick Kirschner. He's written some books, so you might want to try looking him up at your local library. Basically it deals with personality typing specifically concerning how people handle conflicts, and then discusses how to deal with those people.<P>My H is Kirschner's 'Nothing' person. All or Nothing.<P>We've got our counselling session today -- so say some prayers for us.... we sure can use them.<P>Hope some of this info. helps----<BR>Because I KNOW how frustrating all this is....<P>~Amy

Lora:<P>I am pretty clear that keeping them in the house is essential if you want to keep the marriage and there’s an affair going on with this type of personality. As long as they are there, they have to interact with you to a certain extent and are at least positioned to see the changes you make. This type of personality really subordinates to an OP (like Nellie’s experience), so once they’re gone they are under someone else’s near complete control. Just like they won’t leave on their own, they won’t break-up with an OP either. You wait for the OP to break-up with them. My personal belief is there’s less than a 1 in 10 chance of getting them back after a separation if it’s in the OP’s best interest to keep the affair active. Since they can’t deal with conflict, once they’re out of the house they’re pretty much out of your life (and often out of your kid’s lives too). Even just seeing you produces guilt and conflict. In my case, my husband went six months without so much as seeing our newborn baby. He couldn’t deal with it. He dropped all friends and most family. <P>Either way, I’m clear about one central point. Once the hold of the marriage is broken and an affair commences, you’re probably looking at multiple years unless they initiate and take therapy seriously. Few will, without the intervention of someone they trust who is assertive enough to take control. This may be my single biggest piece of learning from my experience. I really believe it’s worth major short term lovebusting to be “controlling” about the issue of doing what you have to for your spouse to get into therapy. It will be perceived as manipulation to request the spouse’s friends and family to involve themselves in this to get help for your spouse, but I think it’s worth it. Without exaggeration, I think you could be looking at 5+ years unless there is therapy, and even then there’s no guarantee that the spouse will want you back once they start addressing issues and becoming introspective. I am now 2 years and 3 months into my timeline, my husband apparently believes I’m 100% at fault, shows no remorse, still is not in counseling, will not sit down for a conversation about our marriage, his affair, or our divorce (which he pretends is not happening), is still having an affair that he lies about, hasn’t brought the OW to meet his family (with one exception), won’t talk to our son about his relationship with OW (but regularly sees her during his visitation) and has yet to show interest in our daughter. He will not acknowledge or respond to my divorce settlement offers, which will force me to litigate. He is has not progressed AT ALL. Nor will he until the hold of the affair is broken and he gets lots of therapy. That could be years more, possibly never. IT IS NOT WORTH IT.<P>I haven’t been posting here for a long time, but I feel strongly about this topic and I’d like to help others avoid the devasting pain of a situation like this. While I believe the Harley’s advice is generally very sound, I also think it doesn’t work with extremely indecisive, conflict avoiding personalities. If you get three months or more into an affair, and there’s no sign of the infidel doing anything to make a decision EITHER WAY, I think it’s a safe bet that his default approach is to keep the existing arrangement in place. Plan A is a disaster with this type – it just extends everything. Plan B just lets them continue to avoid, but it is better psychologically for us. Unfortunately, in cases like this, intervention is required. Someone has got to get the infidel investing serious effort into counseling or you might as well give up.<BR>

I think Distressed has made a lot of good points. <P>My H's first wife left him after only 2 months of marriage, because he wasn't assertive enough. Obviously I should have had a talk with her before I got involved with him. Initially, he did not seem to stand up for himself, but within a year or two, he skipped right over assertive into verbally agressive with strangers, and later with co-workers and occasionally the kids and me. <P>I came to realize only after he left that he was a conflict avoider, but that conflict avoiders do not necessarily avoid creating conflict - they just avoid making any attempt to resolve it. Even in front of the lawyers, he would vacilate between arguing loud enough that his own lawyer twice told him to be quiet, and acting subdued and defeated.<P>I think that often conflict avoiders believe that it is impossible to feel love and anger at the same time, so they are afraid that those who love them will stop loving them if they are angry. My son, who seems to be a conflict avoider as well, has admitted that. He says that even though he knows I want him to realize that I love him even when I am angry at him, he doesn't really believe it. He thinks I stop loving him during those times.<P>I am quite sure that he introduced the kids to the OW and filed for divorce because she insisted. His first lawyer was apparently a friend of the OW. The lawyer himself told me that he didn't handle many divorce cases. My H sent me at least one email that I am sure she wrote, not counting the ones she wrote under the guise of a "family therapist". He asked if he could come to a birthday celebration, then changed his mind and did not want to - that sort of thing happened over and over again. He stopped being willing to enter the house after, I suspect, he kept her waiting too long in the car while the kids were getting ready. I suspect he is burying his resentment toward the OW, and sooner or later he will deal with that and his low self-esteem by cheating on her - and she probably knows that too.

Distressed,<P>Now I'm a little confused. You are saying that you think its best to go to plan B sooner not later, but also that if the marrige is to survive, you have a better chance if you keep them in the house a long as possible?<P>I know that I feel alot better since moving to plan B, so I understand that part. I also think with him gone that you are right, he totally avoids me and ther is little chance of getting back together. So, it seems like there is no chance in these severe cases no matter what way you go. The only chance is to get them to counseling... and of course that is the thing they resist more than anything! Sounds like a catch 22 to me.<P>Amy, Thanks for the book suggestion, I will have to try that.<P>nellie,<BR>Thanks for your insight. I think I was confused too about the anger and conflict avoidence. My H has alot of explosive anger, and I now realize he uses it to avoid solving problems. Especially with me since I am afraid of anger... all he had to do was blow up and I would back off from trying to talk or continue the conversation to a solution.<BR>Lora