I have posted before, but as a synopsis, wife has expressed a strong desire to divorce/separate. No infedility, as I asked the cousnelor we are separately seeing. Just, "not in love", "grown apart", "will never have sex with you again", etc. We had a discussion the other night about separating/divorcing. During the discussion, she suggested I move out, that we may have to sell the house, she wants to be the custodial parent for our two D left at home(16 &18). I am still believing that a "good" marriage can be built around us. I still love her very much. There has not been any effort by her to try and make things work. She says that all of the years in the past show that a future can't happen. However, all of those years were without a committment from both of us to make "us" the priority. She has been a fantastic mother, but I only took what I could get from the marriage and was satisfied with it. Wish I would have been more aware of what she was getting out of the marriage, but I didn't, and I will regret that for a long time. Now for my title question, am I being a "taker" by thinking that if she doesn't want to work on our marriage, she should be the one to leave? Am I being a "taker" by not evaluating the best circumstance for my daughters?

"There has not been any effort by her to try and make things work. "<P>First, recognize that she doesn't see it this way. She felt like she was trying like hell, right up until she decided to quit trying (which was probably just about the time it dawned on you that there was anything wrong at all).<P>Then, let me tell you the things I wish I had done differently. She wanted me out, but I wouldn't go. I dug in and let her be the one to go to her brother's place when things got nasty (mainly practical reasons, but I could likely have come up with something workable if I had wanted to be inventive). Battling over who was to sleep where just added an issue that blocked the main issues.<P>I'm not so concerned with the "giver" and "taker" labels. Perhaps I should be, but I'm not Dr. Harley.<P>What I would do is obtain a separate apartment and make it nice, not a crash pad. If you can put it in the path between the daughters' haunts and their home, all the better--it should be stressed to them that they are able to drop by anytime--and while they should be welcome to hang out (that includes having stuff for them around), the rules there should be as strict as at home. The daughters need to know you're moving out, but do your best to gracefully deflect any questions that might lead to telling them your side of it. You might say "there's three sides to this story, hers, mine and the truth; I'd rather not confuse you with mine, one day your mother and I may agree on the truth and then you'll hear it from both of us." If you can go out and do fun things with your daughters, do so, but within reasonable bounds (no spoiling). If the STBX wants to be included, don't object.<P>So the first part is to avoid any suggestion that you're lame or manipulative as a parent, while at the same time maintaining your relationship with your daughters. <P>Next, what to do about the wife? Could be there's nothing that can be done. Prepare yourself for that possibility. Meanwhile, forget being nasty. Go do your time in the penalty box with a smile. Here's the tough part: women who have decided they no longer want you as a husband or a lover still want you as a "friend". Haven't quite figured this one out totally, my first instinct is to become an enemy ... my ex was always worried that after the divorce I would "diss [her] out of [my] life" (which in fact I mostly have done--but you needn't--I've already moved on but I am starting to get more signals from the ex, which puts me in a difficult spot). You need to step back from any ideas of rekindling romance yet--you're now two or three steps from that, and either it won't work at all, or it will shatter quickly over some remembrance on her part of some problem--more likely you'll just push too fast. Let her generate her own definition of "friendship" and conform yourself to it before you try to reach beyond it. <P>Meanwhile, if you can get into a situation where both of you are in front of the same therapist simultaneously, this is the controlled environment to let out how much you still love her, how much you hurt, how angry you are, etc. She will want to run away from an onslaught like that. If you wanted to deliver it out of a controlled environment, you would have to physically prevent her from leaving (locked doors, yanked coil wires under hoods, etc.), and while it would work wonders in the short term, the next morning you would look like a threatening maniac in the light of day. The counselor may, however, be able to facilitate these exchanges.<P>The picture ain't pretty, and you may not have the talent and tools to make it into a masterpiece again at this late date. But you can make it better instead of destroying it, and perhaps get her partnership in improving it.<P>The bottom line is, put your daughters first, yourself second, and if you want the wife back, be open to letting her decide exactly what place to have in the scheme.

I have read your reply several times---and I appreciate your response. I must admit it is a pill very hard to swallow----definately subject matter for my next visit to the counselor. I don't know why I feel this, but I feel like a doormat!!!!

desperately confused,<P>OK, I think Sisyphus covered the bad parts of what can happen, now let me give you a little hope. My advice is you do the moving out. Why? For two reasons, one is a little selfish and the other has to do with your wife. First by moving out yourself, you will take your self out of a place where there are "triggers" lurking in every corner. Your house is full of memories of past times. If your wife leaves, you will be left to deal with the memories. But in a new place you will not be beaten up by memories everywhere you turn. This will help you get back your composure. <P>Composure is something I lost for many weeks after my wife moved out - I was so sad and pathetic - it is no wonder why I pushed her further away. Who wants to be married to someone who appears so weak?<P>The second reason for you to move out is that you are now leaving your wife with the "triggers". I firmly believe she is the one that needs them. She needs to be apart from you, but in a place where good memories exist. Sure right now all she can see are the negatives, the bad times, but over time, the good memories will surface. If she is the one that moves out, it will be much easier for her to keep those good memories from coming back up, and begin to move on without you. Once these good memories start to surface, her initial reaction will probably be to "get-away", but unfortunately since you are already gone, she will have no choice but to stay and feel their effects.<P>By forcing my wife to move out, I truly believe I made one of the biggest mistakes. Why did I not leave? For the exact thoughts you are expressing - "its my house, if you want out - YOU leave!". Pride got in the way. I can't change it now, but I can offer you my point of view in hopes that maybe it will help you.<P>As far as counseling is concerned I disagree with Sisyphus. I think counseling "together" is the best thing for you both - AS LONG AS IT IS A GOOD COUNSELOR. He/she will be able to act as a non-partisan mediator as you begin to work out the problems of your marriage. If you go to counseling alone to different counselors, each counselor only hears one-side of the marriage and will be forced to make assumptions about the other spouse. This could be very damaging.<P>Finally the hardest part. You need to understand that right now your wife sees no need to work on the marriage. For whatever reasons, she has no desire to work on it. ACCEPT THAT. But that does not mean it is a hopeless situation. It means that you need to focus on yourself (and your daughters of course). You need to look at who you are and what you may have done or are doing that has caused/is causing problems in your marriage. If your wife has no desire to work on your marriage, then don't try to outright force her to - first work on yourself.<P>And pray.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>As far as counseling is concerned I disagree with Sisyphus. I think counseling "together" is the best thing for you both - AS LONG AS IT IS A GOOD COUNSELOR.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Either my post was unclear, or you meant to say "agree" -- counseling together is important.

Your right. Just was a little confusing the way you originally wrote it.<P>Yes I agree with Sisyphus - joint counseling is best! <P><BR>BTW: Sisyphus, I keep confusing your screen name with a certain disease that looks similar to it - oops Sorry........

Thanks for all of your input----wonder if I will can become "contently understanding" someday. Perhaps I can ask for Joint Counseling for Christmas! I pray for the strength to be able to tell my daughters that I am leaving.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>BTW: Sisyphus, I keep confusing your screen name with a certain disease that looks similar to it - oops Sorry........</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <A HREF="http://www.mvstriders.com/camus.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.mvstriders.com/camus.htm</A> <BR>Careful or I'll drop a rock on you!<P>

Desperately Confused,<P>I agree with Mike but want to add<BR>prayer and believe!<P>If you want your wife back don't argue with her about anything. NOTHING!<BR>I know this is hard but it works believe it from someone how has been there. Show her nothing but unconditional love. This does not make you a doormat. Just don't let pride got in your way. Ask God for deliverence from anything that is brothering you not your wife. Most people want to feel loved so show her love but don't cry to her about staying with you. She has to feel free.<BR>gentle

Good article if you care to slog through the jargon: <A HREF="http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp</A>

Interesting article. I am beginning to see a lot more clearly how I got to where I am. I sometimes feel I am the vicitm of trying to be a modern man----who knows exactly how to become a partner with woman who blossomed during the feminist movement??? Looks like over the years, I may have been seen as resembling more of a door mat-----made me one hell of a Dad, but at a cost of being an attractive man.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by desperately confused:<BR><B>I sometimes feel I am the vicitm of trying to be a modern man----who knows exactly how to become a partner with woman who blossomed during the feminist movement? Looks like over the years, I may have been seen as resembling more of a door mat.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, that is the modern paradox in a nutshell. The "Alan Alda" type was much-admired in the '70s. Well, two things: If I recall correctly, the "sensitive" Hawkeye was chasing every nurse he could lock radar on. And once Mel Gibson showed up, all that stuff went out the window anyway. Those of us who bought into that Alda junk got a rude surprise--rhetoric and reality don't match. <P>As sharp-edged an intellect as Freud was stuck on the question "What does woman want?" The answer is, of course, highly variable. <P>One guy who's actually wiring couples up in hermetically-sealed suites where every exhalation, urination, arousal, defecation, interaction, ingestion, glance, gurgle and hiccup is monitored is Dr. John Gottman. He's got a few books out, and he may actually have a few good ideas. <P>One is the four horseman. He finds that all sorts of bad behavior may be in a basically good marriage without doing major harm. No major harm, that is, unless and until the four horseman appear on the scene. No horseman, no problem. Next time around, watch out for the horsemen.<P>

Sisyphus----did you find it interesting that the Myer's Briggs analysis came up with no concluding patterns? In my business world evaluation, my MB is an ENFP. Now, that is a little bit strange for my position, but it does provide for a well rounded team. I do believe I have a different combination for my personal life----perhaps it is conditioned on how I think I should be at home, rather than what I truly feel. Not sure what my wife's analysis would show, but I think she is a B*T#H!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by desperately confused:<BR><B>I do believe I have a different combination for my personal life----perhaps it is conditioned on how I think I should be at home, rather than what I truly feel.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, if you're not true to yourself, it may be that the truth has a way of sneaking around the edges of the facade. That can be real bothersome for a woman when she sees it--destroys her security, her ability to have faith that she's doing the right things for the marriage. That may be a part of the "go crazy" fear on their part.<P>Niven & Pournelle wrote a science fiction book called "The Mote in God's Eye" -- in it, an earth-based empire was well along before it found *any* aliens. Those it did find were bottled up in a single solar system, and had evolved into a differentiated species with types that fulfilled specific roles, like Engineer, Farmer, Master, Mediator, Warrior. Each had no ability to think outside its specialty. Humans could interact only with mediators, who would attach themselves to a single human on a one-to-one basis, taking on that person's mental and vocal characteristics until someone out of eyeshot could be completely fooled. <P>Unfortunately, this wasn't good for the mediators. They went crazy one by one. Why? Because humans routinely think out of their specific roles ... order givers sometimes take orders, engineers (very) occasionally communicate, etc. And once a mediator lost a perfect faith in the known order of things, and started thinking differently, he was by definition crazy. <P>My point would be that women crave a certain amount of stability in their relationship, and that stability is undercut where something the slightest bit dishonest is going on. Like a mediator who could have remained sane if the human had a single, imperturbable identity, the woman needs a man who is entirely a known quantity to her; one who has "integrity" as it were. So when certain personality traits are suppressed at home, even for her "benefit" ... it sounds a disturbing note. Even if the result is pleasant, she has to think in the back of her mind: "What happens when he gets tired of doing this?"