My wife and I have been married for 14 years, we have 4 childrean ages 3-12 and have had the most miserable year possible.<p>In July, I discovered she was having an affair with a 23 yr old man that she worked with. His age was disturbing enough (she is 34)but his personality and way of life were totally out of character with what she always would have considered acceptable. <p>The affair lasted for about 5 months and it was very sexually intense. It has ended and my wife and I are together but she says she has absolutely no sexuall attraction to me at all. She also says she has not had any sexuall attraction towards me for at least 10 years. She sees me as a big brother or father figure. We did have sex probably twice a week before the affair, but have not even touched each other now for 5.5 months. We are going to counseling and trying to work things out. My biggest fear is that the feelings she has will not change, What then? I don't want to be married to my sister!! How did she get those feelings in the first place? How can her feelings ever be changed to what they once where when we first married?<p>[This message has been edited by RSchroeder (edited 01-01-99).]

There are many reasons for her not wanting to have sex with you such as still feeling emotionally connected with affair partner, guilt over having the affair, refusal to take <br>responsibility in having the affair, punishing you for stopping her from continuing the affair. You need to take a tough love stance with her. Don't take this father-sister crap. Tell her that you will give her say a 3 month period to change. If by end of that period you are still in limbo tell her you will help her move to other accomodations and you will file for divorce. <br>

mk -<br>Thanks for the reply. I didin't explain our entire situation, it would take a couple of pages. I already filed for a divorce, back in early November. The affair continued after I filed and she did nothing as far as getting any legal advice because she did not want a divorce. Things went fairly well at first after we decided not to divorce for now, but now she has "bad days", missing the boyfriend and telling me she needs "space". If the subject of sex is even innocently implied by me, she gets angry and says the trapped feeling comes back instantly. I am absolutely frustrated, I do still love her but I cannot go on like this. I will not go back to living like we did before this affair<p>[This message has been edited by RSchroeder (edited 01-01-99).]

Dear R:<br> I am sorry that your family is going thru this. I recently learned that my H of nine and a half years has been Out-of-love with me for about five years (what a total surprise to me!). He also says that he feels like we've been "room-mates" or siblings all of this time.<br> One thing that has really helped me is to just thoroughly read alot of the postings here and also to read ALL of Dr. Harley's concepts. His Q&A section is also really informative.<br> Have faith in your own strenghth as a person, and continue to post here or on the "Infidelity" section, so we all know how you are doing. Take Care!

Thanks for the reply. I am new at this but it is really a wonderful site. I need help navigating, how do I get to the infidelity section and how do I get more input from the "regulars"? I need some input from others and would also like to share some of the things that have helped me through this.

Although my situation is a lot different than yours, the frustation you're feeling sounds a lot like what I've been going through for several years in my marriage. I kept telling my wife I couldn't keep living like this -- I can't tell you how many times I said that. But to no avail. Out of total frustration, last August I just took the kids and left. She got a restraining order making me return the kids to her, and she filed for divorce. She now has temporary custody of our children, all of our possessions, everything. I have nothing.<p>I love her, and all I've ever wanted is to be happy together. We've been separated for nearly five months now, and I've been miserable the whole time. She's still adament about the divorce, however, and unless there's a miracle our 21-year marriage will be over sometime this month.<p>We've had some good talks recently, and I've accepted responsibility for the many mistakes I made in our marriage. But as much as I want to be back together, I told her about a month ago that if she was to tell me that I could come back home today, I wouldn't. There's no way I'd go back to a life together the way it was before.<p>Well, we were talking a couple days ago and she brought that up. I guess she thought what I meant was that she would have to clean up the house or do some of the other things I've often complained about before I'd be willing to come back home. I told her that all I really needed was for her to read some of the materials I've been reading (Give & TAke, Surviving an Affair, Love Busters, etc) -- enough to understand the principles, and to agree to follow this or some other plan that we both agreed upon.<p>I really believe that if we were to get back together without her doing this, it would be a totally wasted effort. Nothing would ever be different. On the other hand, if she started reading and got excited about the possibilities the way I have, then we'd be able to move forward, creating a marriage greater than we ever thought possible. Unfortunately, so far she hasn't been able to "find the time." I'm trying to be patient and not push too hard, but it isn't easy. Especially with the final divorce date so near in the future.<p>Don't know if this help you or not. Good luck.

On the other hand why would a marriage partner claim to love you emotionally and deeply, want to sleep curled up with you, stroke your hair and give you puppy dog kisses on your back and the back of your neck, but at the mere mention of anything sexual completely withdraws, says I'm sorry about this. Then gets up to take out the trash. It's a 23 degree snowy cold New years day with nothin goin on, noone around, finally quiet time compared to the last 2 wks. Candles lit house is warm fireplace goin.. He wants conversation and cuddleing but no more ever.??????????? This is so unfair for those of us who just want a complete and comfortable relationship. What is the deal????? Are personalities this complex??? Baffles me??? Sometimes you think....WHO CARES????????

Yes, personalities are this complex. If anyone here is familiar with my story, you know that my H and I went on a two week vacation after he had been out of our apartment for two weeks, slept together the entire time (nude, as we always have) and basically spent the time as husband and wife in all ways except sexually. He is not averse to my casual physical contact and has even once or twice hugged me with little instigation on my part. But he does not want sex with me under any circumstances. And yesterday he told me he wanted me to go shopping with him (for new bowling bag, no less) but didn't want to spend New Year's Eve with me.<p>I am not angry over this - I have read just about every single word on this website several times and realize that his behavior, while incomprehensible to me, is fairly typical for a man who is still involved in his affair. It is essential to realize this to keep yourself from becoming resentful and angry. It is like an illness, and it is easier to deal with it if you consider your spouse to be sick.<p>RSchroeder, you have indicated that you discovered her affair in July - you may believe that is a long time ago, but in terms of the withdrawal of a person from a lover, it is very short. Some spouses are in withdrawal for a year or more. To access the "Infidelity" section of the website, click on the link for Q&A at the top of this page. It should take you to a page where you can select the section on infidelity. But don't stop there - once you have read that section, continue with all of them - you may not think so, but they can all contain information that will have you saying to yourself, "Holy s___! That's us exactly!" And "Wow! I did that ..."<p>And use the forum search function (link above) to find books recommended by forum participants. Several books highly recommended are "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Willard F. Harley Jr. (founder of this site and the concepts herein) and Dr. Jennifer Harley Chalmers (his daughter); "After the Affair" by Janis Spring (I think); "Give and Take" by Harley; "His Needs, Her Needs" by Harley; "Divorce Busting" by Michele Weiner-Davis.<p>I can't stress enough that your wife is likely still in withdrawal from her lover and also likely to be still suffering from extreme guilt over her affairs. If you want your marriage to survive, you will have to be willing to endure what others unfamiliar with the concepts of marriage mending will consider demeaning behavior. You need to be willing to be the only one working on your marriage for some time. Read the posts over on the Infidelity Forum - you will find many of us at varying stages in circumstances similar to yours (me, for example) posting regularly for support and giving advice and asking for advice. The posts will help you put your own situation in perspective and help you know that what you're experiencing is likely very normal.<p>Hope this helps.<p>terri

Terri,<br>Thanks for the thoughtful response. How can you be so upbeat when you are going throught the same thing yourself? I do have plenty of good days but when the bad ones come, they are tough. I know that she is in withdrawal from her affair but even after that ends, we will still have the problem of her feelings or lack of feelings for me. That is why the affair was able to happen in the first place. If you have the chance, go to the post " All opinions needed - husband sya's he doesn't have the feelings he thinks he should". About half way through the post, there is one from Dianne, her explanation of her feelings sounds almost exactly like me wife. Again thanks for your thoughtful comments and I hope your situation becomes better each day.

RS,<br>God our wife's sound so familiar. Your wife thinks of your as a big brother/father figure because that is what you have let yourself become to her. You have probably handled all the finances, done alot of things with/for the children. Helped out with the housework, in short handled all the problems. In exchange for this was your payment in sex? Did your wife feel like she had to give you sex for your help. did you put a condition on your love for sex? If you did she stopped enjoying sex with you. Her need for affection, admiration and receration compaionship does not sound like they were being met. But you were and are meeting her other needs. Before the affair did she metion that she felt like you two never did anything together anymore. Did she say she felt like a mother and not a woman. Did she say all you wanted her for was sex? Do undo those feelings of being a sibling or father figure. Stop being that. Start treating her like a woman. Take her out to dinner and a movie. Send her flowers. Go for walks hold hands. Kiss her neck. Tell her that she is beautiful. Treat her to a trip to a beauty salon (hair, nails, makeover). Take her shopping. Direct her to the woman's clothes. Not lingee but classy dresses shoes ect. Do not let her near the "mom's" clothing. Express your disere for her. Compliment her figure, her makeup, her apperance. Write her love letters. Put a card in the mail for her. Addresses "From your Man". Make her think of you has a desireable man not as her husband. Slowly let her start taking care of some of the problems stop. Let her fly on her own. She wants your respect as an equal not your love as her husband. Read the post in the infidlety section "taking back the memiors". If you do these things on a consistent basis she will stop thinking of you as her father and start thinking of you as her lover. One finally thought, quit the judging of her. That is what fathers do they judge a daughters actions and state what they should have done. Respect your wife for her if she does something you find upseting tell her you understand what and why she did it and you respect her decsion but her action cause your feeling/self-esteem/ego/ect to be hurt. Don't tell her what she should have said/done/looked at. Just explain that while you and her are different you try to take her feelings into account befor you make any decsion and you would be very happy if she showed the same thoughtfulness. Explain if she doesn't you will understand but it will cause you alot of hurt. Reading my reply does it not sound like alot of work but remember you have ten years of making up to do. Is it worth it? Only you can make that decsion. Good luck and God Bless

Rusty67,<p>Sounds like you have been in our house for the past ten years. I have handled all of the finances, and done a lot of things for/with the children. In short handled most of the problems. It was not necessarily a condition for sex, but I'm sure it felt like one to my wife and she did stop enjoying it a long time ago. I will start treating her like a women and I think your advice is great, in fact if you or anyone else has any advice on how a women wants to be treated, please let me know. I am so used to the way things were that I definitley need help with the "dating" type of thing we need to do.

The best person to ask on how a women wants to be treated is your wife. Sit and talk to her. Express to her your hopes for the futre ask her what she enjoys doing. Her pleasant activities learn them and do them with her. For most women it is not what you do per se but that you invested the time and energy to plan something special. A night out where she doesn't worry about anything (including pressure to make love later). A thoughtful card, letter, or call in the middle of the day. Opening the car door and all other doors. Basically the countless little things that show her you respect and admire and love her. I hope this helps it has with my wife. good luck

Rusty67,<br>I think you are on the right track, but some of the things that you suggest make her feel "trapped" or "suffocated". Especially if I call her in the middle of the day, we are still at the point where she sometimes sees that as me checking up on her. Also even though I would not necessarily expect to have anything intimate happen later, she still feels that that may be my motive or expectation. This may be somewhat out of line but if I do all of these things, sometimes I feel like I am "kissing her a**" and I don't want her to see me as a weak, submissive person that is hanging on to her boot strings. Even though I really enjoy doing those things for her and with her.

RS,<br>You are kiss her a**. You are the one who wants it to work. You are the one making the effort. You are the one doing for her untill she realizes what a great man you are. Thus you have to kiss her a**. This is the most diffucult part of plan A that I have seen. Sacrificing your ego for the sake of your marriage. Your family laughs/riducules you. Your friends think you are nuts. Her family sees it as yes it was all his fault in the frist place. In a nut shell God is forcing you to except humiliation for the good of your marriage. Not only do you have to sacrifice your needs but also your ego, your wants, your desires all for her. If there is any other type of shelfish love that requires so much (except dieing for your family) then I for one would like to know. The problem I have come upon is this. I was able to do all this while I was miserable but as soon as we started getting along better my taker seen her happiness and decided it was not fair and before I knew it my wife and I were agruing on the phone today for two hours. Me pushing for more (i.e getting back together so we can work full-time on our marriage/ her distanceing herself because she hates my taker does not want to be questioned, wants to be trusted completely, does not feel she needs to give me a snapshot of her daily activities ect) so it is forward 3 steps back two. Back on the tightrope. How many falls without a safty net (i.e. a house together, part of her life, kids welfare, ect ) before I fall to hard to recover. I can only keep trying what else can I do. And yes I can only continue to kiss her a** and pray my resentment and anger do not grow too much before we get back together and I stop wanting an us. Your wife is going to see it how she wants to see it at the moment. If she thinks you are weak then she thinks it. The best way to show her you are not is to do those things but also do things by yourself take the kids to a movie out to eat. Invite her but if she says no then go anyhow. You never know things may not work out and if not you have to be able to be on your own in that case. So do for her but at the same time do for you. This way she will see a confident outgoing man who deeply cares for her and for your children. I am not going to kid you it is very,very,very, hard to do this. I am having problems with it but I do see results. It is just not happening fast enough. Gopod luck

Rusty,<p>I guess I am kissing her a**. Actually my wifes family does not see me as the bad guy at least. They were behind me all the way in my attempt to get child custody. I think part of the problem is she felt absolutely forced to end the affair. I had a legitimate shot at custody of our kids. I did not want to take them from her, but I was doing anything and everything I could think of to keep our kids away from the OM. He is 24 yrs old, my oldest son is 12, almost 13. The guy has no desire to have the kids in his life, he was only after one thing and from what my spying efforts turned up, he was getting a LOT of that one thing. He never even had met any of my boys, only our daughter, she is 3 and kept her mouth shut pretty good. My wife said all along even during the affair that she still loves me, but it's that brother/father crap, I really hope that goes away. Hope your day has gotten better, have you seen Bill's New Years resolution yet?

Has your wife ever shown remorse or been apologetic for this affair. Finding out that she had a second affair should be looked on as ominous sign that she does not respect her marriage to you. You need to set conditions to her in order for the marriage to continue. She must earn your trust. She must take steps to become more affectionate even if it is only holding hands or hugging. In my opinion feelings follow even small affectionate gestures. As to the issue of honesty it is mandatory that she supply <br>all the information as to where she is going<br>and coming from and if needed proof. If she wants her space even if she is in the home it means that she does not want to deal with you. That should not be accepted. It is also a sign that there is no desire to try to undo the harm she has done. At this point you haven't even examined the reasons for her first affair. You should remember affairs are like murders; the first one you commit may bother you a little bit, the second murder becomes much easier . You love her but don't let her manipulate you into being defensive. She has to make moves toward you if the healing process is to succeed. If there is no progress you may need to make some hard decisions. I wish you and your wife best of luck .

Mars,<p>Believe me, I hear you. I actually was sure of the first affair but could never prove it and it ended for some reason. She has apologized several times for the first one and says it was a really stupid thing to do. She has apologized for the last one , but this one was much different. Our marriage was not good for the past three years (funny but that's how long ago the first affair was)and she was looking for a way out of the marriage. I do think she will regret this last one if/when she gets through withdrawal from it. I have always been a soft touch, that is part of the problem. I'm in Minnesota and if we divorce, I get the SHAFT, that's just the way it is. We have 4 kids and I would be absolutely broke and for that matter so we she. I do however love her still, very much as a matter of fact and that's the reason I have chosen to try to work this out. I had actually filed for the divorce and was absolutely set to go through with it. She was the one who came to me with the wish to try and work on things. I am trying to be patient and want to give her space if she really needs it right now. I will however grow tired of it and eventually take my chances with the legal system. Thanks for your input.<br>

RS" NO WAY should you pursue this humiliation any more. One affair is too many, but two? The trust and foundation has been been irrevocably violated by her IMHO, and it is time to give her the axe. Let sonny boy take over payments on the cow-after all, he got the free milk.

Fading, we come here to save marriages, not advocate divorce. It is not impossible to reconcile after infidelity, even multiple cases of infidelity. Go over to the Vaughan's website if you need proof of that<br> <A HREF="http://www.vaughan-vaughan.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.vaughan-vaughan.com/</A> <p>RSchroeder wouldn't have come here if he was convinced that divorce was the way out.<p>terri

Sounds like a carbon copy of what I have been thru the last 5 months. No affair but have fallen out of love. Have try following Dr. Harley's advice, but am struggling with it. Not looking for divorce here, but giving time and space to her. Treating her to dinner, flowers etc. Keeping it from the children becoming harder to do. She says that it is not me, but her, doesn't wnat to love anyone anymore, but will agree that she doesn't want to give up on what she has. I can feel for you, advice to keep trying as I do. I am deeply in love with my wife and would like to keep this relationship on track as well.