Hi guys/gals,<P>As expected, it looks like I'm going to become a regular on this board, so let me ask some opinions on the following.<P>My W (WS) and I have finally come to the conclusion that divorce is probably the only outcome for our situation (in home separated for six months, all signs of progress proving false in the end). <P>I don't want a divorce, but after six months of Plan A, I'm pooped. (I don't think her A is continuing, so Plan B is not in the cards). She says that I am the "perfect dad and husband, an angel of a guy". But she is simply not "in-love" with me and is not "happy", and in her eyes that's a good enough reason to break up our family and the lives of two tiny kids...<P>So it looks like we'll start the divorce process after the holidays. I'm OK with that; at least it brings some closure (with some financial and emotional ruin thrown in for good measure).<P>Now, here's where I'm puzzled. She keeps talking about the process going smoothly, that we'll be great friends, that we'll do holidays and vacations together, that I'll come and fix stuff on her house when things break, etc..She is walking around calling me "Sweetie", talking about how we'll do next year's Christmas cards, etc...<P>I'm OK with the "civil" process concept. I don't want things to get ugly. That's easy. The other part I don't get. I don't want a friend like her; someone who cheated on me for six months despite assuring me that there was no one else; someone who showed me with every ounce of her being that she wants nothing to do with me (not just physically, but recreation, conversation, etc). So why is she supposed to be my friend? With friends like this... <P>I understand the answer is "for the kids". But I'm not sure I buy it. If we're worried about the kids, we shouldn't get divorced, right? I have no intentions of making her look bad in front of the kids. But we can't act like we're a big happy family if we're divorced, can we?<P>What I'm trying to understand is if I'm being selfish and childish by thinking that once we're divorced I want her out of my life as much as possible (closure), or if she is being crazy for thinking that we can be great pals and do stuff together, just be "slightly" divorced? I understand that I am somewhat bitter and resentful about being forced into a divorce, while she feels relieved and free, so perhaps this explains her happy-go-lucky attitude. Still, I'm not sure how to act with this.<P>Any thoughts?<P>AGG

I know I will have a larger post on this after my divorce is over...<P>...but...<P>...start on Plan B... my friend.<P>It doesn't matter that the "affair is over"...<BR>...if your W is not willing to commit...<BR>...to the recovery of your marriage...<BR>...you still need to Plan B for yourself...<BR>...before the divorce.<P>You might ask...<BR>...what about the "condition"!!!<BR>...the "break all contact with OP" condition...<P>...well...<P>...the condition is really still the same...<BR>...the <B>real</B> condition is that she commit to your marriage...<BR>...the OP is just the catalyst!!!<BR>...the catalyst could have also been ...alcohol ...drugs ...or even onions!<P>For yourself...<BR>...consider Plan B...<BR>...before divorce!<P>(This is comming from someone who will most likely be divorced tomorrow!)<P> <P>Jim

AGG,<P>You're not crazy, my STBX said all the same things (great dad, great guy, just not 'in'" love")<P>She too wants to remain "good friends". I unfortunately, loved her far too much to ever be just "good friends". I will remain friendly and civil, but that will be all. She will become nothing more than my sons mother.<P>This divorce is all about her and her wishes, not about my son or me & what's best for us. Very selfish behavior, I think. It is, however, <B>HER</B> decision, and there is nothing I can do to change her mind. I'm continuing my plan A by being considerate and cordial when I'm around her, and continuing to work on myself, but I'm also in plan B, in that I initiate no communication with her save for custody and settlement issues.<P>It sounds like we married the same kind of woman AGG. <P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited December 19, 2000).]

Hey c00ker, you knew I was going to chime in at this point, right?<P>The bottom line...<P>She is suffering severe guilt. My STBX us going crazy. Use this time to get a good divorce settlement. Cut her loose. The marriage is over. I'm sorry to be blunt, but you (like me) did all you could once you knew something was wrong. If they choose to go off the deep end, then do not follow. Take care of your children and yourself. Your STBX cannot stay in the fog forever. Reality will hit eventually. Imagine the pain she will feel when it does. It is ALL her own making.<P>I have sorrows that my marriage is over. I do not have sorrows that I cannot be with her. Who is she? We apparently all married the same person. <P>Only deal with matters of divorce and the children at this point. She'll drive you crazy with her flawed logic otherwise. You can still love her. That's okay. That being human. Wish her well. You cannot trust or respect her. You cannot have a marriage without that. That and communication.<P>Let her go. You will then begin to heal. You cannot heal while holding on to a train going the wrong direction hitting every railroad tie getting more bloodied with every impact.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>So it looks like we'll start the divorce process after the holidays.<P>Now, here's where I'm puzzled. She keeps talking about the process going smoothly ... She is walking around calling me "Sweetie"<P>I understand the answer is "for the kids". But I'm not sure I buy it.<P>What I'm trying to understand is if I'm being selfish and childish by thinking that once we're divorced I want her out of my life as much as possible (closure), or if she is being crazy for thinking that we can be great pals and do stuff together, just be "slightly" divorced? Still, I'm not sure how to act with this.<BR>AGG</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>1. Your wife had an affair and now *she* wants to drive the divorce process? No, you go to the library right now, get a Martindale-Hubbell, and find three lawyers with the most impressive bios of advocacy for the husband. Pick the one you like best. Get this thing filed *before* Christmas. Her behavior must have a *cost*. Since her timetable calls for a post-Christmas filing, you have little time to steal a march on her (also, better divorce lawyers' dance cards tend to start filling up after Christmas ... get a good one while the gettin's good).<P>2. That "Sweetie" business is a ruse ... they're nice to you while they engineer a means to have things all their way. Your way can still be "smooth", although for it to be so she'll have to swallow a few bitter pills. Keep as much of *your* money as you can. It helps you move on, encourages her to do so too, and nothing makes for more bitterness and trouble than alimony or child support payments you have trouble meeting--occasional generosity is possible if you avoid getting into that situation.<P>3. You're being childish ... responding to her like you're trying to please your mother. But not selfish (and you should be selfish): that would be to get some enjoyment back in your life, find one of the many women desperate for someone like you, and leave her in the rearview until she vanishes. You're being played. <P>Had you been more selfish, you would have been happier; and if you had been happier, you would have been more desirable ... your life got out of balance, and that is one reason she lost interest.<P>4. What about your kids? Well, you need never badmouth your STBX. What you need to do is show them that people are not able to do what they want with impunity. If *she* files for divorce, she has not only cheated on you, she has dropped you when you became inconvenient. Does it matter which disastrous life choice your kids emulate--the b*tch or the wimp? It's possible that if you start standing up for yourself, there might actually be *two* decent role models in the unlikely case that your wife takes responsibility and makes at least some effort to make amends. At least there will be one.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited December 19, 2000).]

AGC,<BR>My x did pretty much the same thing. I suspect your w still has someone in the wings just from the sound of it. I would think that this op would soon just pop up after the divorce.<P>I told my x that I didn't want to have friends like her either and told her I hoped she moved away so I would never have to see her again. We have a business type relationship only now.<P>She just recently asked about my mother who has been ill since Sept. and ended up diagnosing her with cancer(she hasn't seen her in 2 yrs). So I don't plan on having any other discussions with her in the near future.<P>Get your own lawyer to protect yourself and your kids. Timing of the divorce is no consequence.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RWD:<BR><B>Timing of the divorce is no consequence.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I disagree. First, he can get a better divorce lawyer if he does it before the first-of-the-year rush. Second, if *he* has some control over the timing, then he starts to re-learn how to be consciously in control, a position he has abdicated for far too long. When you're a "great guy" but they're divorcing you, you're either a total wimp, or you're passive-aggressive (openly agreeable but subversively defiant). Neither is healthy.<P>The timing of the divorce is a small thing, but a good place to start, especially since it's going to happen anyway if she gets to do it, while if he does it there is a small possibility of that mere fact having an impact on her thinking.<BR>

This is going to seem like a very odd post, but, AGG, can you e-mail bilderj@yahoo.com?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NSR:<BR><B><BR>...start on Plan B... my friend.<P>Jim</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Jim, I still don't get it, I guess. How can I Plan B if we are in the same house? What would I be trying to accomplish with the Plan B?<P>BTW, I have been reading about your situation, and I'm sorry about your imminent divorce. You've been an inspiration to many here, including myself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by c00ker:<BR><B><BR>She too wants to remain "good friends". I unfortunately, loved her far too much to ever be just "good friends". I will remain friendly and civil, but that will be all.<BR>This divorce is all about her and her wishes, not about my son or me & what's best for us. Very selfish behavior, I think. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Nick,<P>That's exactly what I'm finding hard to accept as well; that the whole thing so far (affair, divorce decision) has been about HER, with no input from me. And now she wants to just continue doing things HER way. I guess my dissapointment in her and in her lack of commitment is so strong, that I really have no respect for her any more. Combine that with my lack of trust, and what kind of "friend" have I got??<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by father of 1, husband of 0:<BR><B><BR>Let her go. You will then begin to heal. You cannot heal while holding on to a train going the wrong direction hitting every railroad tie getting more bloodied with every impact.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is exactly how I feel! Perhaps with time I'll be able to deal with her again, but right now I just have so much resentment built up from the last six months, that I think we're better off having some space from each other. First, I need to lick some wounds and get myself planted firmly again.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> find three lawyers with the most impressive bios of advocacy for the husband. Pick the one you like best. Get this thing filed *before* Christmas. Her behavior must have a *cost*. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks Sisyphus. One thing that my W and I seem to agree on is that we'll try to go with the no-lawyer approach; i.e. figure things out ourselves and then maybe have an attorney go over the agreement to make sure nobody got screwed. We are more or less in agreement on custody (50/50), and things like the house and other finances we can figure out.<P>Really, this whole thing comes down not to the divorce process, but to my behavior around her during and after the divorce.<P>What I see is that if I don't reciprocate to her "niceness" and "friendliness", I may appear to be cranky, vindictive, and a bad guy. I don't want that. At the same time, I feel too hurt to just act like nothing happened, that we are great buddies, just divorced. She has just destroyed my entire family, and I am supposed to be cheerful? I just don't get it.<P>So somehow I want to be able to rationalize to myself (and to her) why it is that I really don't want to be her great buddy, without appearing that I am just "uncooperative". I can just see the situation where people are going to look at us and say: "gosh, [W] is doing such a good job maintaining a positive attitude for the kids, and [AGG] is being such a poop". See what I mean?<P>Also, how do I tell her that I am just not in the mood for being her buddy now, without appearing "poopy"?<P>Thanks,<P>AGG<P><p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited December 19, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> When you're a "great guy" but they're divorcing you, you're either a total wimp, or you're passive-aggressive </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Isn't there a third possibilty? I don't think I'm a wimp just because I'm going along with the divorce. In fact, I was the one that kinda pushed it inthe end, because I got tired of the limbo. I also don't think I'm being passive-aggressive.<P>I think I'm just accepting the hand that was dealt me, and trying to do it with dignity and grace. However, I'm just not sure that I have any desire to be her buddy. "Civil", sure. But "friends", what for? As I already said, she no longer meets most of my criteria for a "friend". The marriage is over, time to move on.<P>

You can be a great guy without being Passive - aggressive or a whimp. You are telling my story, it was like reading my life over the past 7 months "be friends, go on vacation" all the junk. She wants her cake and it it too.<P>Take care of yourself, accept responcibilty for what you have done and try and be a better person!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B> Thanks Sisyphus. One thing that my W and I seem to agree on is that we'll try to go with the no-lawyer approach.<P>Also, how do I tell her that I am just not in the mood for being her buddy now, without appearing "poopy"?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>1. The no-lawyer approach is probably wheelspin. Divorce is arcane enough that you should each have your own lawyer. In most states, you probably won't be able to have one lawyer "look over" what you've both cooked up ... bar rules make him work for one of you or the other, but not both (this is for *your* protection--technically, you and she have a "conflict of interest" which prevents one advocate from competently serving you both--the law does not recognize that you might be able to put aside your "conflict" long enough to cooperate on something as big as a divorce). <P>2. You don't need to tell her. Demonstrate it to her. And you don't need to worry about "poopy". You're having a divorce, and no one that matters (except your children, and of course neither of you badmouth each other or share details with children) expects you not to be poopy. She's the last person whose opinion should matter (even if it does, you shouldn't behave in a way that shows it). In fact, the more you stand up for yourself and your interests, the more clingy she may get. I learned this too late, and I wasn't able to capitalize on it properly (once did so rather dramatically, and with dramatically positive results, but it was too short-term and perhaps too dramatic). <P>Just remember, power attracts women. Powerlessness repels them. Which is not to say that you have to sledgehammer them with arbitrarily-exercised power--and it's likely too late for that to work anyway, even were it the right approach. But carefully-measured use of power in subtle ways will serve you well in the long run ... if not with her, then with someone else.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hurtinginOmaha:<BR><B>You can be a great guy without being Passive - aggressive or a whimp</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course you can. And in that case no reasonable woman would divorce you. Since I have no indication that the STBX is nuts, and assuming she's not lying when she says "great guy" (meaning there's some huge problem on his part like alcoholism, infidelity or abuse), one of the other possibilities is likely correct, at least to some extent that was unacceptable to her (her standards may be unreasonably high, but something sure bothered her). <P>A year ago, had I found this board (instead of "Why Women Leave Men") I might have done better. Would have seen more of my own situation in the posts. I've spent the first half of the last year writhing in agony, the next few months confused and depressed, and only recently has an NTSB-style post-mortem on my part enabled me to draw some conclusions, which I feel I must share. They might be the wrong ones for a particular situation, but sometimes any change is a good one, and teaches you something that helps you triangulate toward where you need to be.<P>

AGG,<P>No you are not being unreasonable and yes she must be nuts to think that things are going to be so "happy-go-lucky" beween the two of you so soon. I also agree that you need to be civil about things, but given the circumstances, I just don't see you two being buddies eihter.<P>While I do believe you should get legal consultation, I do not believe that you should have to file yourself. I just think that you should be prepared for worst. One, because just like you thought she'd never have an A, you never know what she'll do as far as the divorce. And two, just because you want to know the laws on divorce (in your state) and what you rights are as H and father. A lot of men get screwed in the courts when it comes to the kids. <P>As far as her overly happy and cheery attitude, I have to agree with Bob, that she may still have OM in her life. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>originally posted by sisyphus<B><BR>3. You're being childish ... responding to her like you're trying to please your mother. But not selfish (and you should be selfish): that would be to get some enjoyment back in your life, find one of the many women desperate for someone like you, and leave her in the rearview until she vanishes. You're being played. <P>Had you been more selfish, you would have been happier; and if you had been happier, you would have been more desirable ... your life got out of balance, and that is one reason she lost interest.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>With all do respect to sisyphus, I must say this statement in itself is childish. WHile I do believe that your life should not revolve around one person. I do not believe that selfishness is the answer. ANd from a woman's point of view "a selfish man is not in the least bit desirable." The fact that you initially wanted to save your marriage, even with her affair, really shows your commitment and understanding of what marriage is all about. However, it does come a time when you have to let her go. ANd since you say this is the time, I myself stand behind you and say move on and take things one day at a time.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>originally posted by sisyphus<BR><B>When you're a "great guy" but they're divorcing you, you're either a total wimp, or you're passive-aggressive </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>AGG, you are neither. Sometimes people, don't know what they have until it's gone. They think the grass is greener on the other side. It doesn't reflect you as a person. In fact, it reflects there character. I use to wonder if I wasn't pretty enough, snart enough, ect.., and why would my stbx just want to give up. But its not about that, nor is about who files first. It's not about how others think of you.<P>This about doing what's right for AGG and the kids. That's neither selfish nor being a wimp. So follow your heart, and if that is to divorce and move on today, I support you and if it's to plan A tomorrow, then I suppport you, but inly you can decide that!! <P>------------------<BR><B>God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

AGoodGuy,<P>I tend to agree with Sisyphus. The worst thing to do is have two amateurs do something that will affect the rest of your life and that of your children. It doesn't have to be mean spirited (I have heard there are lawyers with a heart somewhere in this country. ). But it does need to be done correctly.<P>If you two agree on the 50/50 split with the children, fine put that into the divorce decree, but if as you suggest this divorce is going to be a financial disaster, then you definitely need a lawyer. She is being nice now because she wants out, she doesn't want to be embarassed, and she wants to be rid of you. She is more at risk than you are here.<P>So AGG do it right. It doesn't have to be mean, but it does have to be right. Further, I am sure Sisyphus is right, you do have an image problem with her. She couldn't have rationalized all that she has done otherwise.<P>AGG, pay attention here, this business is important for your children. Further, I suspect you are going to end up with the kids a lot more than 1/2 time. You are going to be the designated babysitter, since you are such a "nice guy, great father, etc".<P>It is your job to take of yourself and your children, she will not. You know that.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just remember, power attracts women. Powerlessness repels them. Which is not to say that you have to sledgehammer them with arbitrarily-exercised power--and it's likely too late for that to work anyway, even were it the right approach. But carefully-measured use of power in subtle ways will serve you well in the long run ... if not with her, then with someone else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>sisyphus, not being argumentive, but,where are you getting this stuff from?<P>Anyways, AGG, again from a woman's point of view, IMO, a man with some backbone is extremely attractive to a woman. Not power or control. Unless she is a woaman born in the 20's or before, more than likely she wants to feel equal to you, not inferior.<P>------------------<BR><B>God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jamie-lee:<BR><B> [QUOTE]sisyphus, not being argumentive, but,where are you getting this stuff from?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, among others, from you it seems:<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Anyways, AGG, again from a woman's point of view, IMO, a man with some backbone is extremely attractive to a woman. Not power or control. Unless she is a woaman born in the 20's or before, more than likely she wants to feel equal to you, not inferior.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"Backbone" is power and willingness to use it ... absence of either negates the concept of "backbone". So, yes, power does attract women. Now when you say "not power" you may mean that you are not out there constantly seeking the most powerful man you can find (Alan Greenspan's kind of ugly anyway), and I would agree that few woman do that (but enough to keep Bill Clinton *very* busy). "Control" in the sense of "controlling" is someone overusing their power because of their own fear of losing it if they don't use it all the time.<P>I stand by my comments.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jamie-lee:<BR><B>With all do respect to sisyphus, I must say this statement in itself is childish. WHile I do believe that your life should not revolve around one person. I do not believe that selfishness is the answer. ANd from a woman's point of view "a selfish man is not in the least bit desirable." The fact that you initially wanted to save your marriage, even with her affair, really shows your commitment and understanding of what marriage is all about. However, it does come a time when you have to let her go. ANd since you say this is the time, I myself stand behind you and say move on and take things one day at a time.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"Selfishness" is something that got a bum rap in kindergarten. Somehow being grabby and not sharing were tagged with a name that makes people ashamed to make sure their own reasonable needs are fulfilled. After a time, if you do neglect your own needs you will at best run out of juice. And when you do that, you won't be capable of meeting other people's needs and they will want you away from them.<P>A man who thinks only of himself is not in the least bit desirable. But a man that thinks only of the woman is a butler or valet, not a husband. And if a woman wants the latter, she will fire the former once she sees through the masquerade.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited December 19, 2000).]

sisyphus,<BR>As much as I want to agree with you, you may have something.<P>I have been told I am a "nice" guy, in fact my x told me many times that everybody said I was such a nice guy. She said that they didn't know the real me. I am not passive aggressive, at least I don't think so. My x seemed ot be jealous of my "niceness." <P>But on the other hand, she never really had respect for me. She confided alot in her friends at work and I was always kind of told that this is what so and so would do. I put a stop to this early in the marriage when she would do it with her father and BIL.<P>I wasn't able to at work. She went as far as to defend another worker(male) that got in trouble when he got caught in an area he shouldn't have been. X said why would he do that, that "they" were out to get him etc. He also always had comments on how to do things around my house because he had done this that and the other in previous employment. <P>She was never interested in my work, she acted like I would get fired anyday, so I got that I never discussed it.<P>I don't remember how it came to me, but when x was out with her om one time, they went to see "Eyes, Wide Shut" and she said it was so terrible that om went and got their money back. She seemed to think that was a great thing. That is something I would never do. If I picked a bad movie, why would that be the theaters fault.<P>Another aspect of my "niceness" is the woman I dated in late fall. She kept saying how "nice" I was, but there seemed to be a big "but" hanging there.<P>As far as I can tell, om/h is the anti-bob and thats what attracts x to him.<P><p>[This message has been edited by RWD (edited December 19, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RWD:<BR><B>I don't remember how it came to me, but when x was out with her om one time, they went to see "Eyes, Wide Shut" and she said it was so terrible that om went and got their money back. She seemed to think that was a great thing. That is something I would never do. If I picked a bad movie, why would that be the theaters fault.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Only because the theater owners are the ones who decide what movies to show on their screens. It's not as simple as just that, but the point would be that it's not unreasonable to hold them responsible for the quality of the product, just as you would for things at the concession stand that they didn't make either.<P>Yep, you need some "alpha" lessons, as did I. <P>My ex came from a family where if something wasn't acceptable in a restaruant (by your sole judgment, I don't mean you found a roach or something), it went back. That wasn't me. I will go after some other consumer issues like a terrier with a rat, but not the same ones she would. Did I lose points for that? You betcha.<BR>