sisyphus,<P>Here's my definition of a man(or woman) with backbone....<P>One who is secure with himself.<BR>One who knows what they want.<BR>One who is complete by themself and can stand alone without anyone else.<P>To me, that has nothing to do with power. IMO, a man who wants or needs to feel as if he has power in a relationship is dominating. And as far as I'm concerned, he'd might as well find a woman in one of those cultures where the woman stands behind the man and covers her face <P>Now about the selfishness issue. You said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>A man who thinks only of himself is not in the least bit desirable. But a man that thinks only of the woman is a butler or valet, not a husband. And if a woman wants the latter, she will fire the former once she sees through the masquerade.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I AGREE. I said, that no ones world should revolve around one person, BUT that selfishness was not the answer. I DO NOT think that taking care of ones own needs is being selfish. In fact, I believe this is healthy. So maybe in this aspect, we are saying the same thing, but in different ways, which is common for a man and woman <P><BR>However, in MARRIAGE, there is no I. It is only WE. ANd both his and her needs need to be met, and that's the reason we all are here. <P><P>------------------<BR><B>God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> A man who thinks only of himself is not in the least bit desirable. But a man that thinks only of the woman is a butler or valet, not a husband. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, my FIL and GFIL were butlers (literally) and my UIL (uncle in law) was a butler, until his wife died. And then he turned into a completely different person, he got his son off heroin, and his son got a real job.<P>There is some truth to that, however, this is where there is a clash of values. Whenever we went to a hotel, the room was never good enough for the X, and she insisted that i always go and complain, and ask if we can get upgraded to a better room for free. Now this pissed me off, because it is just playing the hotel for a better room without paying for it. Its childish. She even did it at a company ski function when the room was free. I was embarrassed because the company was taking us skiing for free, dinner, a whole weekend, and she was complaining about the room.<P>So yes, I agree, but Bob and I were not on the same wavelength about what required backbone, and what doesn't, with the X. I told the therapist, and her and my kids, that reacting to every single stimuli that comes your way will result in you being stuck in the moment, fighting everything, and not being able to get past the Reading Railroad.<P>Now, the wanting to be nice is the manipulation for a nice agreement, and then off to the wings or whereever he is hidden. <BR>My X said that, and had all these wonderful dreams about I could still make all the money in the stock market for her, and I said that it doesn't work that way. Of course now she is no longer with the man who could do no wrong.<P>she is still at it to this day, even this morning. We did mediation, but its not reviewed and filed yet, so i have to think about it for awhile.<P>WIFTT<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jamie-lee:<BR><B>IMO, a man who wants or needs to feel as if he has power in a relationship is dominating. And as far as I'm concerned, he'd might as well find a woman in one of those cultures where the woman stands behind the man and covers her face.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you want to put "all the" in front of power, I'll agree with you on that one. You're mis-equating power with dominance ... I'm talking about an Aristotelian mean, not an extreme.<P>You can't be "secure" or "complete" and able to stand alone if you are powerless. So again, power is part of your definition of "backbone". <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You're mis-equating power with dominance ... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay, maybe I was, but this is how you came off to me, thus my intial reply. However, I can see it from your point of view at this time.<P>I guess that comment rubbed me the wrong way in the sense that I feel I gave my stbx to much power and trying to regain my own backbone back! <P><BR><P>------------------<BR><B>God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>AGoodGuy,<BR> The worst thing to do is have two amateurs do something that will affect the rest of your life and that of your children. It doesn't have to be mean spirited. But it does need to be done correctly.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think it is fairly common in my state to have divorce agreements made up with the help of mediators, and the agreement then needs to be looked at by an attorney or a paralegal. I don't see why we have to have two competing attorneys; I've been told that that will guarantee financial and emotional ruin (I heard this specifically from attorneys). So if we can agree on things, why make it advesarial? I don't think this is a question of "amateurs".<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B> Further, you do have an image problem with her. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OUCH, JL, that was way below the belt ! If I didn't know you enough to know that you mean well, I'd get defensive here! You may well be right, of course, and I've tried to change myself somewhat during my Plan A. According to her, I am now "perfect" . I suppose I could try to change more to please her, e.g. become a loud mouth, an agreesive SOB, etc. But why would I do that? That is not my personality, that is not whom she married. I wouldn't be true to myself if I started trying to be something I don't want to be, just to please her. Doesn't that make sense?<P>Some of you guys are missing my question. I'm not looking for ways to get her back, so I'm not trying to find the right way to impress her (by being selfish, powerful, or whatever). I happen to like me as I am. Not that I won't strive to continue to grow as a person, I will. But I will do that for me, not to get her back.<P>All I was wondering about is am I unreasonable in my resentment of her recent actions, and in thinking that this resentment will make it hard for us to be "friends". I think you guys gave me great advice here, and I do appreciate it.<P>AGG<P>

The "let's be friends' is to relieve her guilt. You can be civil but friends? Friends dont' treat each other the way she has treated you. She is not living in reality if she thinks you are going to do vacations together etc. You need to burst that bubble by letting her know that once you divorce the only connection between you will be children and that you will moving on hopefully eventually finding someone else to share your love. It does not make you a bad guy to want closure in all this. Don't let her guilt you into this. It was her choice to have an affair and to end the marriage she now has to live with the consequences of these choices. <BR>Maybe it is time for some acting "as if" you are divorced so she can begin to see the reality of what divorce is. Perhaps you should begin the legal process now instead of<BR>waiting.<BR>Please look out for yourself legally. It does not hurt to at least consult with an attorney. <P>[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited December 19, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited December 19, 2000).]

AGG,<P>I meant for you to get professional help with this divorce. IF you can do it with mediation and a few hours of accountants time do so. More power to you. I am just worried that you will get shafted since W is in such a fog.<P>As for my comment about her image of you, it was meant as a dig at her, not you. She is in such a fog right now that I doubt that despite what she says she views you all that positively. There is nothing you can do about that until the fog lifts.<P>All I would really like to convey to you is that she is in a fog and when she comes out she will feel guilty and try to cover up her mistakes. In either situation you cannot "trust" her to have your best interests or even the childrens best interest in mind.<P>So AGG don't fool around with this. Sit down , do the mediation, but make sure you have a very very good attorney in the background. You need everything checked. You don't have to rip her apart in this divorce, but you should know by now having read here and in the newspapers, men do not fair well in the divorce process no matter how great a father you have been to the kids.<P>So AGG, CYA and do it well or everyone may suffer.<P>In case you haven't noticed, I am very much for doing everything to save a marriage, but when it is over, it is time to take the gloves off and protect yourself because no one else can or will. Play to win AGG, in your case winning means getting a fair settlement of assests and at least 50/50 custody of your children.<P>Hope I cleared up what I said before. I also hope that you don't go broke saving money on this deal.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>

I would not pay attention her babble about being friends after the divorce. I would not get into a discussion about whether you can be friends with her. Just play the game so the divorce goes smoothly.

Put me down as another one in the same situation as you.<P>My w was never able to recommit after her affair. I took and extended (6 week) vacation with our kids to give her time to think things through (not a good idea). Came back from vacation and found out about OM-2.<P>She moved out. Kids stayed with me. Things didn't last long with OM-2 and now she is dating and playing the field.<P>Your W may or may not be done with OM, but the situation is still the same. She want you to be there to meet some EN's - be a friend, help with the kids, etc. and she will likely continue dating others for the other EN's - affection, sex, etc.<P>Plan B is totally appropriate in this situation. You quit meeting any of her EN's and then she can't have her cake and eat it too. The other, and probably more important reason for Plan B, is to protect yourself from further hurt, stop all LB's on your part, and protect whatever remaining love you do have for her.<P>Best case scenario is that your W realizes that you are meeting very important EN's for her. EN's that she likely can't get met through dating (family commitment). At that point she may be able to recommit to working on the marriage with you.<P>Worst case is you and/or she still proceeds with the divorce. If you go this way you are still protecting yourself from further hurt and are better able to deal with the "business" aspects of the divorce without your emotions getting in the way.<P>Sisyphus has good advice on how to "win" at divorce. You need to decide if you want to win at divorce or try to save your marriage. This is not to say that you let her walk all over you if a divorce gets started. You still need to protect your rights with your children and your assets. Remember, you can only change you. Any attempts to teach your W a lesson or punish her for her actions will only build the animosity between the two of you and make any chance for reconciliation harder, and/or make the divorce nastier.<P>Even at this late stage you may want to consider telephone counseling with one of the Harley's to help you map out a good solid Plan B strategy. Plan B with kids is definitely not a simple matter of one of you moving out.<P>I am planning on getting back in touch with Steve Harley after the holidays (and I have some money!) to map out my plan B strategy.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>Some of you guys are missing my question. I'm not looking for ways to get her back, so I'm not trying to find the right way to impress her (by being selfish, powerful, or whatever). I happen to like me as I am. Not that I won't strive to continue to grow as a person, I will. But I will do that for me, not to get her back.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've been assuming right along that the marriage is irretrievable. What I have also made assumptions about are the traits that got it there in the first place. Angry as you are over this, you may think you don't want her back. Brother, that particular state of mind is highly variable, even within the matter of a few minutes. For her it is not so, but over time, it might be that she can be turned. Do you want to start now, or at some indefinable time in the future? <P>The man's version of Plan A should look a lot different than the woman's version. Because of historical gender expectations, a woman may need to be a bit sycophantic. The man, assuming no bad habits that need clearing up (hanging too much with the buddies, the big-screen or the brewskis), probably needs to conform more to the more traditional role of husband as steadfast, breadwinning, planning, and in general being a model of strength. Again, leftover gender expectations: even if she's "liberated", she'll want this. That controversial "Promisekeepers" movement may have a few right ideas, along with the ones that are just plain far right.<P>Now, when are you going to start to develop the traits that attract women and keep them around? Do you need to spiral all the way to the bottom first? OK, then, that's fine with me; I don't have a dog in this fight. OTOH, living well is the best revenge, and you won't start living well until you do these things to change yourself. <P>Nobody wants you to be a loudmouth S.O.B. or a sleazy Herb Tarlick. What they will want is this elusive "backbone" ... which consists of identifying your interests and moving toward them with the most subtle application of power needed to overcome a particular obstacle. If you don't do that, the woman won't see you living on South Fork, which is where she wants to be whether she admits it or not. And what of your children? If you one day get the Forrest Gump speech from a school administrator, will you next be teaching the kid to be good with a mop? Believe me, she doesn't want to think about her man in that way. <P>I'm not advocating "win" at divorce for the sake of having a satisfying divorce, nor for the sake of getting her back. It's simply as good a starting place as any to work on yourself (what's your biggest challenge right now?--I'd say it's this divorce), and maybe in the long run you'll wind up with the other two things too.

A Good Guy,<P>Boy, I don't know where to start on this post. So much anger and antagonism here. First I look to your screen name "A Good Guy" - To me that says it all. <P>A lot of what you are saying here are things that I have heard over the past months - even from close family and friends. And you know what? I love them for saying those things - I know they are said out of love for me, but I choose to disregard them completely. But let me clarify a little first:<P>Right now I do have an attorney. I dragged my feet for a long time in getting one, mainly because I thought my W and I could handle this alone. But then all those comments started coming at me (as I am sure they were being said to her as well). Soon our conversations began to be "colored" by what others were telling us. I could sense the growing mistrust in her voice and I knew it was happening in mine. So she got her attorney and I got mine.<P>Harsh things were said and done by both sides. Things that I never wanted to say, but felt like I had to protect myself. Now here we are. Last week we spoke on the phone and things went extremely well. For the first time in months, the feeling of trust came back into our conversation. How did this happen? About a month ago I decided to drop my fears and become honest with her. At the same time I stopped trying to manipulate her into coming back - COMPLETELY. I gave my marriage back to God for Him to do as He sees fit.<P>I love my wife - there is no doubt about it. The funny thing is that she said ALL of the same things your W has said to you. Kind of like she wants her cake and to eat it too. But I view myself like you, as a nice guy (and there is absolutetly nothing wrong with that). I now know that if/when we are divorced, just like it is with her, I don't know how I will be around her - maybe we will be good friends - maybe I will just walk away. But I am perfectly content to just let it happen. Let the cards fall where they may. With all of the emotional trauma I am going through now, why in the world would I want to worry about something that has not even happened yet?!!!?<P>Our wives are in a "fog", but that does not mean we allow that fog to control our lives! If you are a good guy, then live by who you have always been. Don't let others sway you into becoming "selfish" or concerned with who has what power. As your wife is making some serious decisions, so now must you - Decisions about who YOU want to be! Some say that a man's true nature comes out during times of adversity.<P>How do you want to be seen?<P>But more mportant, what do you want to see when you look in the mirror?<P>I can tell you that many view me as sad and unable to move on. Little do they know that right now I feel stronger than I ever have in my whole life. True I did let other's opinions sway me, but I put a stop to it. I chose to be who I am. If my wife wants everything - so the *uck what (excuse my French )!!!! They are just material items. Things that can be replaced - buy my character, my dignity, my faith are things that are unreplaceable!<P>I told her last week on the phone - "all I want out of this is my dignity, my home, my dog and my ability to survive financially. Other than that, YOU CAN HAVE IT ALL!" And I said it with conviction and strength. She received it very graciously and said that she does not want a lot.<P>Ok, I don't know your beliefs or your faith, but all I need to do when evaluating other people's advice is to look at it (hear it) and say to myself, "what does God want me to do? TRULY want me to do? And is what is beign said to me in line with His wishes?". For me, those questions have gotten me through a lot and I am walk with my head held high because of my answers to those questions.<P>Stay true to your feelings. If you love your wife then love her. You don't need to be her doormat, but that does not mean you have to get "tough" and "strong". Begin by loving God, then yourself, then your wife and see what happens. Focus on yourself - not to be selfish, rather far from it - focus on the good points of yourself and nurture them first and foremost. Use this time to grow - not regress into some type of child who thinks they need to get mean to cover up their hurt and anger.<P>If your wife begins throwing "daggers" at you, by all means protect yourself, but don't begin throwing them back at her...<P>Finally let me relate something our counselor told me a couple weeks ago (he is a highly respected doctor in my state). He said that often he is able to mediate between a divorcing couple by going through all the family items in what he calls "a marital auction". From just his describing the process to me, I began to laugh. He told me that often, couples leave his office laughing and joking because he makes the process almost like a game. True the process is nothing trivial, but he said he only works to alleviate the stress and tension surrounding the process. He said that what he accomplishes in about 2 hours (costing roughly $250) usually takes lawyers 30 hours each to accomplish (which may cost both spouses combined a total of $15,000). I spoke to my wife and she was in favor of it as well. But first we are going to try and work it out ourselves, then take it to our attorneys only to "review" it. If that fails, then we will agree to the mediation.<P>But I have faith that if we both approach it in a fair and friendly way - it WILL work out. If my wife chooses not to be fair, then so be it. Again I will protect myself but I will do all in my power not to attack.<P>Do I have hope in saving our marriage? Most definitely - I believe that given the chance love can conquer all.<P>Do what is in your heart.<BR>God Bless,<P>Mike

A Good Guy,<P>Maybe you can help me understand something. I've seen so many posts by folks about to, or going through a divorce and it seems "strange" that they want to treat the cheating spouse "fairly".<P>I went through a divorce very recently (for different reasons) and being fair was my last concern.<P>I was fair as I spent years trying to build the marriage, I was fair when I tried to get us into conseling, I was fair when I went through Plan A, I was more than fair in accepting fault and responsibility. In other words, I did everything I could to save the marriage while I thought there was a chance.<P>However, once the divorce was a given, I stopped being fair and worried about myself and my loved ones. I found the concept of "being friends" revolting. I would never choose to be a friend to someone that acted as my ex did. By the way, several times during the divorce she also suggested that we could be friends.<P>For whatever reasons, spouses that have screwed up by the numbers, always seem to come up with, "we can be friends". Its as if they have no understanding as to how badly they have hurt us. Or more importantly, they just don't care! Maybe they feel so guilty they offer it, like its a consolation prize or something. Gee, I don't know you are so upset, I offered to remain friends.<P>You said you plan on 50/50 time with the kids and I suspect that as your a "good guy" your planning on halving all the material and financial "things" in the marriage. WHY???<P>Did she treat you with so much respect, love, caring, and concideration that you just have to repay it in kind? If so I have a proposition for you.<P>Lets be business partners, you do all the work, I'll go off and work on something else, and then in a few years when I get bored being your partner you can give me half of everything. Of course we will still be "friends". Heck after all is said and done maybe we could go on vaction and talk about how I took you to the cleaners. Makes a lot of sense right???<P>All I'm saying is, why are you concerned with ANYTHING she wants at this point? Its time to get tough for your own protection.<P>She made the bed, she has to lay in it, you don't.

A quick riff on fairness. If there's stuff to divide, you can do a spreadsheet, attach a value to the items, and see that things work out more or less to both your satisfaction. My XW and I did something like this (I did it reluctantly, and believe me I was generous with myself). <P>The law will not let you get away with being less than "fair" -- assuming her attorney is any good at all and yours is not some kind of super-shyster. In big-dollar divorces there are Arnie Becker-type lawyers, crooked judges, and all the rest; but I don't think that's the case here. <P>Even the worst criminal deserves a fair trial, and you should and must provide fairness to your wife. This is not the same as generosity. <P>It may be that you can avoid large parts of the adversarial process. But you still should have an agreement that provides for the surprises that may appear in the future: tax audits, lawsuits out of the blue, etc. There may be things that one spouse rightfully should pay for that the other spouse might find themself obligated to pay ... but a spouse should have a clearly spelled out right to go back after that money from the defaulting spouse. So there will need to be an agreement, and likely an attorney will need to draft it.<P>I would not approach this with rancor or false hope. Just get it done, get through it, don't fold, but don't try to stomp her. In that way, it's far more likely that in the future you might get to that point of talking well on the phone, etc. -- if either one of you feels screwed to the wall, how likely is it?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>I'm not looking for ways to get her back.....</B><P>Hmmm......<P>Yet I see a lot of anger at her for "breaking up the family". If you read Harley, and I know you do, you know where you are in the cycle. She had the affair, not to excuse it, but as a result of you two drifting apart and her needs not being met. She broke off the affair, committed to the marriage and even went into counseling, but it got bogged down. Due to career entanglements, contact with the OM continues, and that is hampering recovery. <P>You know where the process is at, this was laid out months ago in advance. I think that she needs you to give her hope, be the cheerful spouse, give her space to grieve, and not launch OK Corral relationship discussions when she is visibly depressed. <P>Since D-day, a lot has happened that is positive. She broke off the A, committed to the marriage, went to counseling, jumped back into your bed on occasion, and has continually recognized your changes for the positive. The in-love feelings haven't returned, and her mourning continues. She is an emotional wreck, so her statements and actions are inconsistent. We knew all that would come. But the game still lies very much in your hands. If you want to offer an easy divorce, and remove her faith in the two of you together by showing your own lack of faith, than a divorce is what you'll get. <P>If you are really concerned about recovering your marriage for the sake of your kids, I would suggest that a little patience is still called for. Why not tell her that you want to keep trying for 6 months? Or, at the minimum, talk in terms of trial separation for a year, not instant divorce.<P>Sorry to be harsh, but I see a real conflict in your statements here. On the one hand, you blame her in strong terms for breaking up the family and hurting your kids. On the other hand, we both know where the burden for keeping your family together lies right now....with you, at least until she emerges from the fog and gets over the OM. <P>She can fall back in love with you AGG. I think it will happen....at least that is what Harley would have us all believe. It may be a lightswitch out of the blue, or it may be in stages, like Lostva, but WS do indeed fall back in love. I'd hate to see you give up when it could be imminent at any moment. <P>You've inspired me with your strength, and know I would like to see you realize the results of your efforts.<P>Happy Holidays to you and your kids,<P>Mike <P> <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>She can fall back in love with you AGG. I think it will happen... I'd hate to see you give up when it could be imminent at any moment. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mike, the "best friends" stuff is a wicked tip off that there is a lack of respect, and she wants out. The only way to trump that kind of pulling away is to pull away faster on your own. <P>I'm convinced it's very much Newtonian: for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. She doesn't think that he's OK on his own and she thinks he is is too weak for her. Fine. Time to prove otherwise. <P>The Catch 22 is you can't do so while appearing to try to hold on to the marriage. Even worse, each attempt to pull away will be tested by her effort to draw near again ... then down you go in flames the moment *she* has a new negative feeling.<P>Not being there, all I can say is that we'd all love to wave a magic wand and make this marriage whole. If you can find someone who can do that and confound James Randi, become that person's agent and collect 15%. <P>AGG's tired of it, and wants out too, at least for now. I want him to stop worrying about what *she* thinks (that's a lot of what got him here in the first place) and start working on his own characteristics so that this doesn't happen again. Can he change? I hope so.

It's couched in the thickest of psychological jargon, but this is an intersting paper on spousal rejection: <A HREF="http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp</A>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All I was wondering about is am I unreasonable in my resentment of her recent actions, and in thinking that this resentment will make it hard for us to be "friends".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nope, you are not being unreasonable, and yeah, all this would make it a bit hard to be friends. Back when my H didn't think we could ever fall back in-love, I got earfuls of the "we can be good friends" cr*p. It IS simply guilt talking...guilt that they have betrayed the marriage, are tearing up the home, etc. He really wanted to believe that we'd be good friends, we could still do things together sometimes, the kids would hardly notice any disruption, etc. <P>Had he not come to his senses 6-7 or so months later, my next step would have been to go to PlanB/trial separation, to let him see what divorce & life without me would be like. I would not have been mean, would have been quite fair, but would not have let him try to be good friends with me.<P>Go re-read Mike's post...in my opinion, he is right on the money.<P>Hugs--<P>Kathi

Wow, thanks for all the responses! I stayed away for a day, and now I'm hopelessly behind!<P>First, thanks to all of you for your comments. I do appreciate them tremendously. It's too bad that I see so many of you here who until recently were still on the EN forum (Nick, help me, Country Guy, etc). Oh well...<P>It looks to me like the original topic kinda digressed into several paths, and I'd like to address them all (sorry!):<P>Path 1, the issue of "being friends" after a divorce. Seems like a nearly unanimous vote that this won't happen, that it's her guilt talking. I tend to agree, and I'm glad that you guys validated my thoughts!<P>Path 2, the issue of how to handle the divorce process. Well, I still hope to do it in a low intensity level approach, and use attorneys only as needed. I understand that at the first sign of trouble, we'll probably have to resort to attorneys, but I'll go in hoping for the best. Other than that, I certainly plan to try to be fair and cordial. Like SoTired2000 (Mike) said, I don't care about most of our possessions, except for the house, since it represents our kids' home. Given adequate custody (at least 50%), plus the house (after buying out her share, of course), I'll be much less picky about the rest.<P>Path 3, the issue of possibly changing myself to stop the divorce. I understand all the points about trying to change myself into something that SHE will like. I understand. But I'm sorry guys, I've been changing myself for the last six months, and I no longer know that what she wants me to be is somthing I WANT to be. I like myself, not in a selfish or egotistical sense, but in a simple sense. I am a good guy. I am a good father. I have a good job, good friends, good sense of humor, etc. As a matter of fact, I never had trouble attracting women who my friends thought were well out of my league. I did it by being myself. So at this point I must say that if my W wants something else (which I think she does, now that she got her kids and a high power career), then let her go find it (actually, she already did, right? - the OM)<P>Path 4, the issue of should I try something else other than divorce. Here I'm a little confused. I thought most everyone agrees that after about six months of Plan A, it's time to try something else. It's been six months for me, and I AM ready to try something else. If she will be willing to separate instead of divorcing, that'd fine with me. But I don't think that'll be an option that she'll consider.<P><BR>Once again, thanks so much for all your thoughts. I look forward to chatting with you in the future!<P>AGG

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>Path 4, the issue of should I try something else other than divorce. Here I'm a little confused. I thought most everyone agrees that after about six months of Plan A, it's time to try something else. It's been six months for me, and I AM ready to try something else.</B><P>Uh.....I don't know where you got that six months figure. If you can reference a Harley article I'd be interested. When counseling with Steve, I repeatedly asked about time frames, (like, neurotically) and was told that it was so individual that no cookie cutter time frame could be employed. There are too many factors -- the end of the affair, the end of the emotional affair (has that happened yet, AGG?), how long the marriage had been off track, the quality of the Plan A, the quality of the relationship when it was good, outside influences such as friends and family, psychological issues...etc. It goes on and on. <P>In your case, your W still has to see the OM on a daily basis. That is the biggest time anchor you can imagine to recovery. I think that six months would be MAYBE be appropriate from the end of the affair, emotional and otherwise......what date would you put on that? I know she is still occasional mooning around crying in her room....you don't do that because you are out of love with your spouse, you do that because you are not over an affair. I'm not even sure that any "clock" should be ticking yet.<P>You know where I stand. She is still in the fog, and you are giving too much credence to her mood and statements. If she suggested you jump off a cliff together, would you? I think you need to adopt a calm, secure, steady stance, and basically ignore her nutty behavior. Don't go along with her divorce scheme to end her pain...it is a false path.<P>Mike<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited December 21, 2000).]

Mike<P>is there a subjective reason why you are over here on the D/D boards? not a harbinger is it?<P>tom<BR>