Help need advice.<br>I just returned from Pa were I went to see my wife and son for New Year's day. My leaving was very hard this time. It hurt me so much to walk out the door and travel 500 miles back to my life here. My wife and I had a very nice holiday. We talked and held each other. Spent time together and were intimate. On the whole everything worked out the way it should. She has told me she loves and misses me. She did not ask me for anything thus I did not feel used in any regard just cared for. When I left she said she had mixed emtions about that. On the one hand she did not want me to leave but on the other she did. She said she wants to be sure from her heart that we are what is best. That the relationship is worth saving. My problem is this. The more time that goes by the less my heart aches. I am getting use to being myself. Not having children under foot 24/7. Having time to reflect and think. I am starting to make plans for myself that do not include my wife. I find it ironic that the more time this takes the more she wants us and the less I want it. Don't misunderstand me. I want my marriage to work more then anything. I love my wife very deeply but the hurt is becoming to much. I really feel that I am approaching a threshold of pain in this regards. If I do plan B it will be for my sanity not in any effort to reconcile my marriage. I do not want to cross that line but I feel it is fast approaching. Has anyone else been there? Felt like this? I excepted her back after her affairs. I have been pulling out all the stops in the last month and a half to win her back. Each time I try I open myself up to a new round of hurt, humilation, ridicule from family and friends. My heart aches so much that I forget what it feels like to not hurt. I offered Friday to pay for her apartment, electric and phone if she would quit her job (she works as a waitress in a bar) I hate her working there. She asked if there was any conditions ( i.e will I be able to come and go as I please, does this mean we will get back together ect) I told her the only condition I expected is for her not to see anyone else during our effort to save our marriage. She turned it down. I told her it would be good for her to be with the kids all the time and have time to think about us. Plus I wanted to spend the night with her Fri. She turned it down. I told her that it was a good oppurtunity she said that she was SURE it was an open ended oppurtunity. I told her no the blue light special ended when I left the resturant. She still thinks it is open . This attitude of me always being there really upset me. It is like my attempts to help are being taken for granted. It hurt alot. The next morning I had to leave and this was extremly hard, bad weather, my son clinging to me, my wife saying that her emtions were mixed but excited to get me out the door all came together to cause me extreme hurt. So I feel that we are both going in the oppisite direction once again. The longer she takes the more she wants us and the longer she takes the less I want to be hurt. Any advice out there on how to deal with these feelings of not wanting to be hurt anymore? Thanks

Dear R:<p>Boy, your letter really made me feel sad (don't worry, it's not really you, i've been sad for a long time). How long have you been going thru all of this?<p>The reason i ask, is because my H left me two weeks ago and i am completely devastated (physically sick, waking up several times at night, depressed, irritable, unable to eat normally). He says he no longer loves me, that i'm not fun anymore, that he hasn't had feelings for me FOR YEARS! He appears to have absolutely no interest in reconciliation, but is willing to go to counseling. (I think he's just doing that, so he can "prove" that it won't work, and also because my intense emotional reactions toward him probably make him think i'm a basket-case, and he's probably afraid i'm ready to jump off the nearest roof). (I'm not). There have been times when i've been out in public (the mall) and wasn't sure if i could take another step without collapsing! It's been very, very painful. (i am getting some help with meds, thank god, but it sure seems to be slow kicking in).<p>Anyhow, i just keep wondering how long this can all drag out. This MB Forum has been one major source of support for me, and sometimes i get on here and start reading and just don't see anyone having much success. It's very depressing. I'm sure you must be thrilled to have your wife say she loves you (boy, what i would give to hear THAT right now), but things are still not right for you two. See, i keep thinking that if i give my H some space & begin working on fixing my Love Busters and fulfilling his needs, then i know he may start to feel like working on things, but how long can i humiliate myself like that, especially if he throws in the towel at the end????? I have to maintain SOME type of dignity!! I know that it sometimes takes a long time to fix things but i'm exhausted. I also realize that i am just in the beginning of all of this, so i need to be patient. But, there are days when i feel like i could just explode (with anger, devastation). How did you ever get thru all of what you've gotten thru so far?<p>Two days ago, i had the same feelings you had, although they were very brief because the pain returned loud & clear the next morning. When i was feeling detatched from my emotions, i began to feel better and think about things like: do i REALLY want to put this much effort into this? Do i really want to be married to someone like HIM? Maybe i really would be better off without him, and i'm just in too much pain to see that right now. I started to picture myself in the house by myself, and i sort of liked the idea of being independent. We both got married right out of college, and have never lived alone. I am very compulsive, and his thoughtlessness about the house drives me CRAZY. He can be very selfish, indecisive, hurtful, unthoughtful, unemotional, rude sometimes, and aloof. I am a very "feeling" type of person. Maybe i need to be with someone who can fulfill those needs of mine better than him, because, truthfully, i don't know if he could ever really work on those things.<p>I started thinking about Dr. Harley's Emotional Neeeds concepts. My H filled out and discussed the E.N. and the Love Busters questionnaires. So, now i know that he wants to feel important & admired, and i had stopped doing that for him for quite a while (because of my own resentments building up), and NOW i'm feeling resentful AGAIN that I have to be the one making the effort to keep this marriage going, when every time he opens his mouth anymore, he hurts me with his comments (things i needed to hear A LONG TIME AGO, but he never shared with me).<p>Well, i'm sorry i'm just rambling and making judgements about my H (sometimes getting angry and annoyed with him actually helps me detatch from the pain). Your wife sounds a little immature (as does my H). How old are you guys? I don't blame you for not liking the idea of her working in a bar! It seems to me that that's a job for nineteen year olds, not grown women with children (i'm sorry for being so nasty, i'm just angry as usual). I wish i could say "hang in there", but lately, i've been less hopeful about marriage reconciliation. If anyone out ther knows any SUCCESS stories, i'd sure as heck like to hear them!! Sorry for being so negative, but my capacity for hope is dwindling.

Rusty,<br>I hit that wall a few weeks ago. My wife kept pushing away my every attempt at working things out. She even said that she didn't want to TRY, just let things happen.<br>So, finally I told her what you said in your email. That I am losing the energy to bounce back. And, one time she pushes me away, I will stay. I felt my love dwindling, and my resentment increasing. That weekend was h--l. Lots of talking. What I expected from her. What she didn't want from me right now. It was a major turning point. I think that once she realized that I might not be here forever, it forced her to react. We talk a lot more now. She is once, again, caring and friendly. This does not mean that we are OK. It does not mean that we will definately work things out. She still admits that she is unhappy with her life. And that she can't be happy in our marriage until she learns how to be happy herself.<br>You have just had a really good weekend. And, like most of us, wanted more. The whole ball of wax. The whole enchelada.<br>Remember that this takes baby steps. You had a great weekend. And, then you let your need to fly ruin the rest of it. Your wife seems like she is moving towards you. Don't put up that wall yourself. One wall is bad enough to get through. Time. Time Time. Where are you running to?

Rusty,<p>Keep doing some of the things you have told me to try. Ask Bill to repeat his New Years resolution to you. I am anxious to try some of your suggestions in my situation, but you throw in the towel now, you won't be able to give out any more of the good advice. Don't let this bad feeling or experience stop you from moving in the right direction. Think of all the bad things/feelings you have already overcome. If your wife is receptive at all (and it sounds like she is), don't give up just yet!!

rusty<BR><p>[This message has been edited by slowlerner (edited February 16, 2000).]

Thanks for the pep talk,<br>I needed that! Today was terrible. My wife and I talked/agrued on the phone for two hours today. I was pushing for us to get back together for more openness, for more while she was distanceing herself running again. She said she was afraid of my temper, my controlling ways, that I haven't changed ect. I just can't break that cycle when we start it. It has become so easy to get into it. The conversation ended because she had to go to work but I am sure that if not for that it would have continued all day. I really think that is what we need is a heart to heart where she can express herself and I can express myself without anger or tempers or hurtful words. Sadly I believe she is not ready for that . Hell I may not be ready for that. I am just so tired of being in limbo. I need to make decsions now. Like what to do about our house, our anaimals, my job, do I move out and stay with her some days my cousins some day my van. I can't afford to keep the house. I do not want the responsiblity of caring for anaimals. If I want to get off of work here and drive to Pa to see my kids then I want to be able to with no one to answr to. If I want to stay down here for a day or two to see my parants then I want to. I guess what I am trying to say is that I do not need the added stress of a house, dogs, cats, a horse, helping my father , where to stay, travaling 1000 miles a week for work while I am trying to rebuild my marriage. But I am unable to make the decsions because I want her input on them. It is her dogs, cats, horse, house, also even if she left them. For me to just sell them and/or give them away would I think be a major love buster to her. But what other options do I have. I can not do this any longer. I can keep my job for another month and travel for awhile untill I find a good job up there. I think it will give her space too to be gone for there for three to four days a week. But I can not take care of a house, anaimals ect and travel and rebuild my marriage. Hell the phone bill alone is going to kill me. I just wanted it to be easier. Well it isn't so I have to do the hard work somemore. I just hope the anger I feel towords her will not grow more before we reconsile. Any advice on my problem? Need all I can get. Thanks

rusty --<p>Today has been pretty hard on me too. I was okay when I first got up, but as the day wore on I've become more and more restless and negative about everything.<p>I had a really good talk with my wife on Wednesday. At least I thought it went well -- I did most of the talking, but I could tell by her expressions that my words were having some of the desired effect. Well, there was something else I needed to talk to her about, so Thursday morning I called her and asked if we could get together to talk again. She said she'd come by in the afternoon. Well, by the time she showed up she only had a few minutes to give me. I told her I'd like to have at least an hour, preferable two. She suggested later in the evening (New Year's Eve) after our son's birthday party. Well, by the time the party was over it was 11, and she told me was feeling tired and might not even stay up. So I asked again when we could get together to talk, and she said "tomorrow evening, or Saturday, or Sunday." Well, here it is Sunday evening and I haven't heard one word from her since last year (New Year's Eve). I had rehearsed in my mind what I was going to say, and I thought it was pretty good, but now when I carry on my imaginary conversation I recognize all kinds of love busters, mostly disrespectful judgements, that weren't there when I first wanted to talk. My frustration and impatience are really getting to me.<p>I'm also starting to feel the same "why bother?" feelings you were describing. I'm just hoping that tomorrow I'll wake up refreshed and in a better frame of mind. Those negative feelings come and go, but as long as I don't act on them no harm is done. I'm trying to learn not to make decisions and say things to her when I'm feeling this way. It's probably GOOD she didn't come by today.<p>This probably doesn't help you any, but I just had to get out some of my own frustration.

Slowlerner, try writing your wife a letter. Then re-read it for love busters and make changes. Then re-read it again and do the same thing. Don't send/give it to her until you are sure it is free of love busters. It's a lot easier to modify what you write down then it is to take back words already spoken.<p>terri

The rollorcoaster continues,<br>i just got off the phone with my kids. God I miss them. My wife's cousin was watching them for her. We had a nice heart to heart. She told me that my wife has told her that she does not want to see anyone else. GREAT!!! When many people tell you the same thing your mind starts to believe it even when trust is not there. By talking to her and hearing the same things my wife has been telling me I take hope that things are working out. She did say it maybe two years for my wife to get her **** straight but she needs the time to be on her own to discover who she really is. That is fine if not for the kids. I thought she knew all this when she said her vows to me and to God but from looking back on things I see that she has never been has committed to us as I have which has lead me to alot of resentment. I thought that is why people take vows so they have something to cling to when things get hard. To be honest it is alot of little things with a couple of big ones thrown in just to spice things up. I guess that people always need what they don't shave. Marriage is not about freedom or growing as an individual. It is about sharing your life with someone. scarificing your freedom to gain so much more. To grow together as a couple which enables you to grow so much more as an individual. you can be the best one-on-one basketball player in the world but untill you play with a team your skills will not grow farther. Look at Jordon. He is great but how great would he have been if he never played with anyone else. You can only grow so much by yourself before you need help to grow more. My wife never had the time to grow has a teenager. She got pregnet in highschool married right after that for 5yrs. After the divorce she was involved with me. she has never had the time to be her own person. Well she should have thought about that before she married me and had another child. I understand this need but if you look at it that way you will never be happy. She has responsibilities now wife, mother ect. I am deeply sorry that she never had that time to grow but in life you never can go back. You must accept that and move on. Sorry i'm preaching. I just get so anger that the reason for most of our problems can be laid at the feet of immaturity. I guess that the thrill of being on you own not answering to anyone. Doing what you want when you what. How you want. Without regard to anyone's feelings can be called freedom but I call it immaturity. It is the process of growing up being held responsible for you actions. Making mistakes learning from them that make you mature. Don't miss understand me, When it comes to raising children my wife is very responsibly and mature. It is just the commitment area where she is immature. She believes that there is something out there that is better. Always searching never finding . Moving to the next man, area, job, crisis, friend. She does not understand that happiness comes from taken pleasure in the here and now. It doesn't matter what you are doing just by experienceing the moment enjoying the minute can true happiness be found. If you are always looking ahead then the next thing always appears more interesting then what you have so you leave that for the next thing and the next and the next. Never truly enjoying what you have never being satified. Never experiencing the sublime joy that comes with disecting , studying, understand what you hold. Only with understand and preception do you become happy. Looking for the little joys. The quiet touch, the soft kiss, the comfort that truly knowing another human being brings can you find happiness. The little laugh from you child, the loud cry, the chocking cough, the broken bones the bleeding cuts, the good and the bad. By looking at what is happening not what is goin to happen you experience life. And only from experiencing life do you recieve happinness from within yourself. Once you become happy with yourself you can spread it to other people who inturn find it within themselves who inturn spread it to others. But sadly people like my wife always thinks that it is better at the next stop why bother getting off the train and getting dirty. This stop has a mud puddle surly the next will be dry. No then the next will have a place to sit and eat. No well certainly the next must have a fine veiw. With each stop past the chance to experienc it vanishes. A little bit of happiness goes to. Because when each stop fails to meet your expecttations then you start to resent it and it becomes that much harder for the next stop to fulfill your needs. But how about when you miss a stop that at the time you wanted to enjoy. The train of life does not make u-turns. Instead of understanding that and looking at the next stop and enjoying it for what it is. You feel cheated and want the stop you miss. You keep searching every stop for one like that one you missed but there is no two stops alike. So do you destroy each stop because it is not the one you want or do you put childish feelings of lose away and be adult about it and treasue the stops that are left each for their uniqness. You can either be unhappy because you missed something thus missing everything else or you can be happy know that there will be many more and different things to see and do and examine along the way of this great railway of life. Enjoying every stop for what it is not hating it for what it is not. Sorry preaching I know but why can't people see it. Why can't people understand what they have and where they are at is more important then what they may get next. Stop and smell the roses is a good way to sum it up

rusty ... please read what you just wrote. Think about disrespectful judgments and other Love Busters. You are being disrespectful, to some extent, of your wife's feelings. You know her life history and understand why she would feel that way - but then go on to say that she has no right to feel that way because she is married.<p>Be careful when you start to say things like that to us, it might be coming out in your communication with her, and you might be pushing her away when that's not what you intend. I'm sure, like my H, she's fully aware of what she said in her vows, but apparently she's having trouble with her feelings right now (like my H). Trust that with patience and love, she will get her head straight. And be certain that with Love Busters, she won't, unless it is to decide that you can't be what she needs you to be - a man who loves her without judging her, who respects her for who she is.<p>I hope you haven't taken offense, I just worry when I read stuff like you've written, that people will wind up conveying these feelings to their spouses and create more problems.<p>terri

terri,<br>No offense taken. I am using love buster's. I am making judgemental decsions. I am also saying that people who are never happy are that way because of the way they look at things. That is the way life is. I wish my wife could see it. I understand her point of view but she is unable to see my side. Because to see it she must admit that she is not totally right. To her that is impossible. Sorry just been a bad day.

Rusty,<br>I am having a bad day too. So, I have to agree with you. My wife is very similar. We married as soon as she graduated college. She never lived on her own. Had very few boyfriend in school.<br>She also feels that life is passing her by. As for that train. She got off at my stop. But keeps looking at the train, wondering where it is going, and thinking that it has to be better than here. The difference is, that my wife is afraid to jump on the train. But, she takes no joy in what is in the station. Just keeps wondering.<br>This past weekend was rough. For both of us. She was down most of the weekend. When she is like that, she tends to argue with the kids. They, in turn, think that their mom is in a bad mood because of them. This puts me in a bad mood. So, last night I was really upset. Tried to talk at 10 PM. But, she was tired. So, we argued until 12 midight. <br>This morning, she said that we have to lay ground rules for living together, or separate. Well, my feelings are that the ground rules have to be jointly decided upon. <br>Another day.<p>BTW - I copied my New Years Resolutions from the other board:<p>1. Dont let one stupid/bad thing set my "tone" for the day. Each day is too important to let one<br> thing ruin it.<br> 2. Don't let one bad day ruin a week. Obviously a week is 7 times more important than a day.<br> 3. Don't let one stupid/bad thing ruin you life. Things happen. Get over it and past it. There are<br> a lot of days left.<p>[This message has been edited by Bill (edited 01-04-99).]

Rusty:<br>WOW!<br>You sound as angry as i did, in my earlier post. I also tend to make negative judgements about my H (lazy, immature, etc). Terri was right. That is definitely not helping. And I KNOW that, even if i try not to, that it probably DOES come across to him when i communicate.<p>That is why i left the house last night when he was coming over to drop off my Xmas presents from his family. First of all, it's painful just to see him, and second of all, my emotions were running thru the roof last night, and i KNOW i would have done some Love Busting.<p>Thanks, Terri, for your objective input!!!

rusty, disillusioned, et al<p>I've been purposely waiting until I could see some resolution to a situation before posting. This one refers to anger. Last week my wife was off all week and the kids were out of school. I had to work. She decided to take the boys to her mother's on Tuesday and return on Thursday. Things had been pretty good over the holidays as I reported earlier.<br>They came home Thursday and I came home from work that afternoon looking forward to seeing them. When I came in my wife was on the computer and the boys were playing video games. I'm greeted with a lame, "Hey", without her even looking up. I brush it off, thinking to myself not to be so sensitive, because, of course, I'm looking for a little more after not seeing them for a couple of days. Unfortunately it does turn out to be an omen of things to come because she hardly speaks to me the whole evening.<br>Now I feel myself getting royally pissed. Things had been going well. What happened? Yes, I know about the roller coaster since I've ridden it to death. But it still catches you off guard at times, especially when you've enjoyed a reasonably peaceful period. I allow the greater part of the night to expire before I say anything just to give her a chance to warm up, which she never does. She just goes to bed.<br>So I go in to ask what the deal is. I won't go through the whole conversation but it's a recap of I'm not fully healed and sometimes I just don't feel the same way. Well, folks, the normally try-hard-to-be-reasonable guy was just not in the mood. I hadn't seen them for two days and I was not looking forward to a three day week end as a married single man who had just had a good holiday with his wife and kids.<br>I was livid. I told her I was going to disable that computer and that, by God, if I couldn't have any interaction I'd be damned if some stranger in California would either. I told her that I was sick of this switching and that if she kept doing it I would be flipping my own switch and that when I did it wouldn't be switching back any time soon. I went into the kitchen and paced the floor, fuming. Then I slammed my fist into the refrigerator door. It had one of those little magnetic holders attached so when my hand hit it it put two cuts in it. Then the right side of my hand started to swell. Afterwards I went back to the bedroom to get something and she saw the hand and asked me what happened. I asked her what did she care and went back out to the living room.<br>The next morning I was sitting on the couch. She comes out, looks at my hand and asks why I do this to myself. Then she rubs my hand, kisses me on the forehead and says to stop doing this sort of thing and stop getting so upset, that things will be ok. Since then she has been acting pretty well and even came home Saturday with a couple of new shirts she bought me.<br>Obviously what I did was a major love buster and I let my anger get the better of me. Something I've been very successful in restraining in recent months. How I got out of this one on a positive note I'm not quite sure. In the past an outburst like this would have bought me about 3 days of silence. But I think my wife has done some maturing of her own and seems to be handling things better.<br>I just have to remember that just because the roller coaster levels out that I can't afford to forget that I'm still on it.

Bruce,<br>I have had a similar experience this past week. It culminated last night. A similar situation to yours. Things had been going well. Too well, I guess. So I expected more. Going into last night, I was upset at her lack of emotion toward me. <br>Unfortunately, for me, one of the biggest love busters is bringing up serious conversation at bedtime. She resents having to deal with this when she is tired. It makes her upset the entire next day.<br>So, I of course forget this. She goes to sleep. I go down to watch TV. Get more upset that she doesn't come down. Then I go up where she pretends to sleep. I remark that I will sleep downstairs. She "wakes" and asks whats wrong. This embarks us upon a 2-3 hour tirade of her and/or me leaving the room at times. <br>This morning she angrily said we need to lay down some ground rules for living together. Or separate. <br>Ground rules are great. My number one item is to find time to talk to me, other than at bedtime. <br>I think I have to start from the beginning, again. Eliminate the love busters. Cool down. Let her get her feelings back. Slowly.<br>Baby Steps.

Bruce, Bill, everybody else:<p>Gosh, these stories are KILLING me. I know it takes time, effort, and patience, but even THAT doesn't bring success. I'm sorry for writing while i'm in a bad mood (again), but i don't know what else to do. I want to SCREAM!!!! Anybody have any suggestions for coping strategies?? I have three support groups lined up, i maycall a counselor for myself, and my H & I are going to our first "marital counseling" session this Friday. But i cannot help but think that he's just doing this to accomodate me or to "prove" that counseling doesn't work.<p>i almost feel like i could let go easier and get on with my life, if he would just sayy he wants a divorce. But then, i would truly be devasttated.

Disillusioned,<br>It is a long battle. And, there is very little positive feedback during this recovery.<br>I wrote that my wife and I took some major backward steps. Yesterday, I found out she stayed in bed all day. She was depressed at our situation. And she also got a rejection letter from a college. So, she stayed in bed, ate, and slept. We didn't talk last night. I left her alone and didn't ask her anything. I decided to step back a bit. No pushing.<br>I don't know how long you have been here. One of the things I started doing at first, at the suggestion of someone here, is to keep a journal of my recovery with my wife. My feelings, emotions, and the events. Yesterday I re-read the earlier entries. I had forgotten how bad things were, and how much better they are now. Far from good, but a whole lot better. Try to look back and see the difference.<br>Also, you should find your own counselor. You need to talk this through with someone on your own.<br>Good luck.