Its been so long since I posted on MB. I was always under the GQ section. I have come to terms with my h infidelity but I am still so unsure of Why it happened? We had a wonderful marriage. He even said that he loves me but he is just drawn to this OW and can't help himself. My story is such a long one and this OW is a real piece of work. <P>I was wondering if others on this panel have ever found out why a seemingly wonderful marriage could just crumble before your eyes. After 12 years of marriage 20 years of dating and 2 beautiful children, he threw it all away for a trampy women. <P>He has totally changed. Has disappointed so many people including his own parents and siblings. The local priest will not even allow him to participate in the youth basketball league as a coach like he has done for the past 4 years. <P>What I can't understand is how he can go from treating me with so much respect and love all those years to such hatred. He is so selfish. His family is so embarrassed by his behavior. It's like he is possessed.<P>How is that possible. How can he lay awake at night and not think of me and the kids. <P>He moved out in January of 2000 and moved right in with OW and her 3 kids. His life revolves around her. <P>My divorce is still not final yet, its seems as if he was never ever a part of my life. I am in Plan b because I have no choice. <P>I would not want a future with this man ever again because I will never ever respect him again and will never trust him again. But, I just wish I knew why?<BR>Does that question ever get answered for anyone of us?<P>Any thought out there today????

Yes,<P>sometimes it is preprogrammed into the psychi and at a certain time or at a certain event, it goes off. I have read examples of it.<BR>I have seen it.<P>it is a trait of a certain type of person, one who is very loyal to the past, and to beliefs of the past that have been taught,<BR>one who has difficulty making decisions and taking full responsibility for their actions.<P>However, they will learn later by experience, unfortunately, and will pass on the programming to offspring in lots of cases, through both genetics and example.<P>one theory i have on this is that it has been in the gene pool for generations, however, for several reasons, it has not been exposed due to:<P>1) prior generations shorter life spans<BR>2) current generations MUCH greater economic freedom and affluency.<BR>3) woman's lib movement, much more "actual, realized equality" which directly attacks the much more frail male ego.<BR>4) easy travel, meaning now a person can meet anyone all over theworld, thus increasing the possibility of finding the "right" soul mate!<BR>It raises the probability of finding a <B> better </B> interpersonal connection than ever before.<P>sorry to hear of your confusion, but possibly, it may have NOTHING to do with you. It had nothing to do with my X when I had an episode 10 years ago. It had all to do with my social programming, or lack thereof.<P>tom<P><BR>

I have been stuck with the same question. Why did this happen? My STBXH's dad had a breakdown at 45 - wasn't going to be promoted anymore at his job and fell apart for two years. Had an affair with the couch and the bottle. My STBXH also was no longer going to get promoted (also 45) however he did find another job and moved out-of-state. Since my STBXH had started cheating on me with any prostitute that came his way on business trips (and he went on trips all the time) for at least a year and this was not making him happy. I think he decided he wanted to "fall" in love with someone new. Find someone new to take care of him, he did very easily because he can be extremely charming, interesting and engaging when he wants to be. Got involved with a younger woman he liked at work, she paid total attention to him - made him feel great about himself - got the job out-of-state and decided to abandon marriage and family. He is marrying is OW as soon as our divorce is final. He is repeating the same life we had with her (new house, kids the whole works) but I am sure that in his mind he feels that this time he will do it right and everything will be different because of his new wife.

Even the shrinks aren't quite sure why this happens: <A HREF="http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp</A>

Simple,<P>affair - the strongest drug known to man<P>Seemingly sensible people get totally swept away. Damn the consequences. Affairs, cocaine, alcohol... What's the difference? The human body can produce the most powerful drugs in the world.

F1H0,<P>it aint that simple, nor correlated to your answer.<P>WIFTT

Barrington,<P>sounds like Dad, part II, but using a different solution, since STBXH watched<BR>dad not get good results from his couch and his bottle.<P>Sex for you H made him feel good, so I bet in the future he will again go through this cycle, as he hits the exact same closed door, and since he didn't take the time to figure out the combination, he will hit it again.<P>poor people, the genes we are stuck with determine alot that we don't know about.<P>tom<BR>

When there is a complete personality transformation, when the abandoning spouse behaves in ways that are the antithesis of his former personality in areas that are not directly related to your relationship, when he emotionally abandons his children, when he abandons his former values and everything that was important to him, there is way more to the situation than "meeting needs", etc. It may be depression, a personality disorder, a personality break - but it is some form of mental illness, and all the MB techniques in the world will make little if any difference. "Plan A" just makes them angrier. Sometimes "Plan B" does to - or it just allows them to abandon their family even more completely. The WS has disappeared just as completely as if they became addicted to crack.<P>Unfortunately there is no way to predict which spouses will undergo this horrible transformation, but it is all too common. <P>In the article that Sisyphus referenced, it mentioned that therapists should attempt to convince the BS to trust others again. I think a therapist who would do that is doing a disservice to his or her patient. The risk of this sort of transformation is so high, and so completely unpredictable, that no one should be trusted. It is not a rare occurrence. You should always remain vigilant, always emotionally and financially prepared to be completely abandoned without warning. You should never allow yourself to become fully committed to any other adult. If I had it to do over again, I would never have married. Not just would I have not married my H, I would never have married anyone. I love my children with all my heart, but I wish somehow that my only connection to him would have been through a sperm bank. I will always love my H, and I do not wish ever to refer to him as an ex-H. He is and will be my late H. <P>I wish someone had told me at the beginning of this 2 years ago not to expect it ever to get any easier. I wish someone had told me that his anger would continue unabated, that he would get further and further withdrawn from the children. Then maybe I would have been better prepared.

Nellie,<P>AMEN to everything you said!<P>As usual, you and I are reading off of the same page.<P>I cannot and more importantly, will NOT ever trust another human being again, in this lifetime. I have learned the ultimate lesson...that we all must learn to depend on only ourselves...and on God.<P>I watched my H totally and completely disappear into the quagmire. There seems to be no way to recover him from the pit he has willingly chosen to enter.<P>He left us for dead and never looked back. Finally, a year later, he remembered he had a son. But, he still does ridiculously small gestures to stay connected to his life.<P>Once in awhile, it almost seems he is surfacing...only to just as suddenly disappear again.<P>There are no guarantees in life...I learned that one the hard way.<P>Tough lesson...

I'm sorry, but I just havta jump in on this one. They become a differnt, mean or crul person... or even alien to you to detach from you, they are trying to make it eaiser on you and them by behaving in such strange behavior in order to detach from you and th situation as quickly and and easliy to them as possible.<P>They eventually (usaully) come out of this stage, then experience guilt.<P>Good luck to you

.<p>[This message has been edited by Trapped Mom (edited March 25, 2001).]

Nellie,<P>you have some very valid points, and ones which i did see myself. I think that the MB concepts work when there is commitment, and not MI, and sometimes, the MI is just below the surface, meaning the person is still functioning, but the MI comes out under stress.<P>good observation!<P>tom

katgirl,<P>I agree with "nolongersadnlonely" on this one - even my wife has said that she is acting like this to make it easier ON ME! Deep down they have guilt, guilt about a lot of things. The best way their mind finds in dealing with the guilt is to "ruin their good memories" of the marriage. For if they in fact are leaving a good marriage and a good spouse, then something HAS to be wrong with THEM. Unfortunately many people can not handle this - they have trouble looking at the bad in their own lives. They instead choose to just "forget" or discount their mistakes. Thus they recolor their marriage and spouse to make it as ugly as possible. That way they can postpone their confrontation of their guilt (maybe for the rest of their lives).<P>But guilt is a funny thing... I really believe it is always there, right under the surface. The person may be able to ignore it on the outside, but it will definitely show itself in other respects in their life, until they face "it" and come to grips with their actions - only then will they truly heal themselves.<P>Another way that the WS can rationalize their behavior is to try and convince themselves that what they are doing is the "best" thing, not only for themselves, but for the spouse they are desserting as well. Then they can believe that they are the bigger person - they are doing what is right, even though their spouse does not see it right now. They truly grow to believe that one day the leftbehind spouse will open their eyes and see it is in fact for the best.<P>Unfortunately that often happens. Not because it was "for the best" but rather because the leftbehind spouse is able to heal themselves and move on to another relationship - one with two healthy individuals involved. The original WS may perceive it as "now my previous spouse has found who they were truly meant to be with", but it is only them once again rationalizing their actions.<P>--------------------------------------<BR>To skye and Nellie1,<P>I am so sorry you both feel this way - I can feel your pain just reading your words. Believe me when I say I know just how hurt you both are (I am right there with you both). What makes me even more sad is to see what your spouse's actions have done to your feelings and your hearts. Just goes to show the serious effects that divorces have on all involved.<P>I would never ask you to change your feelings about trusting someone else at this point in your lives, because you have every right to feel this way. But I pray for you both that one day you may be able to heal to a point where another special person will enter your life and force you to address the trust issue again. <P>It is so hard when people you trust with your whole being, let you down... On the other hand if you never trust someone like that I feel you maybe missing out on so much. And remember that however trite it may sound "one bad apple does not spoil the bunch". There are a lot of trustworthy men out there, I can count about 2 dozen right here at MB (including myself ).<P>God doesn't want you to trust only Him, He wants you to show His love to all those around you, especially to a spouse. He knows that others will often let you down, but that does not mean you let their faults close down your hearts. You both seem like such loving women. Take some time. Heal yourselves. And try to believe that one day you may be able to trust and love again.<P>My prayers are for you both and for all of us here.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike

Mike,<P>The trouble is that my H was not a "bad apple" for decades. For the first almost 19 years of our marriage, my H gave me no reason to think that he wasn't trustworthy. How long do you have to live with someone before you know whether they are trustworthy? Apparently you never know.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>When there is a complete personality transformation, when the abandoning spouse behaves in ways that are the antithesis of his former personality in areas that are not directly related to your relationship, when he emotionally abandons his children, when he abandons his former values and everything that was important to him, there is way more to the situation than "meeting needs", etc. It may be depression, a personality disorder, a personality break - but it is some form of mental illness, and all the MB techniques in the world will make little if any difference. "Plan A" just makes them angrier. Sometimes "Plan B" does to - or it just allows them to abandon their family even more completely. The WS has disappeared just as completely as if they became addicted to crack.<P>Unfortunately there is no way to predict which spouses will undergo this horrible transformation, but it is all too common. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What you're describing may also be a conversion experience, like the one Saul had on the road to Damascus. Yes, it sometimes happens in lives that from the outside look perfect. If people don't know themselves well (such as having married young), it can happen to them, because they have imperceptibly drifted into life choices that are out of step with their maturing self-image, and something must give. Sometiems a "Walter Mitty" fantasy life is sufficient to keep the person in the life they've come to know; other times they simply lead lives of quiet desparation. Others develop other outlets for the personality, or are able to make changes gradually and without major disruption. <P>The least emotionally-skilled among us permit the problem to build to a crescendo, and either self-destruct, or make such a major break in their lives that others are hurt. Of course we can blame and hate them. What good does it do though?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited December 29, 2000).]

I don't think this has anything to do with a "conversion experience" in my H's case. Most of his basic beliefs have been pretty consistent for a quarter of a century. He was 30 when we married, hardly what I consider young. <P>A few years ago we gave up our careers and our home to go into business for himself farming. One of his parents died immediately afterwards. Unfortunately, although we were actually making money at it within a couple of years, it was not nearly enough to support the family, and we had to give it up - and in the process we ended up far worse off financially, and without the ability to even hobby farm as we had been doing previously - which was far more than just a hobby - it had been a extremely important part of our lives and the way we raised our children for many years. We saw little hope of things ever improving. We had given up so much to pursue this dream, and ended up far worse off than we were before. And then a close relative, a young adult, was murdered. I think the loss of his dream, followed by having it driven home how quickly and easily lives can be destroyed, were the catalysts for his depression. In retrospect, I think he has suffered from depressive episodes all of his adult life.<P>But the part I have the hardest time dealing with is how a man who loved his children with all his heart could withdraw from them. How he can want to see them only if they behave perfectly, and if they do not annoy the OW. How he can blame them for not contacting him often enough, when he has called them only a few times in almost two years. How he can care so little about their day-to-day lives.

I believe all of us, betrayed, betrayer, whomever, have been guilty of self-deception at some point in our lives. <P>Some people are just alot more invested in their self-deception than others and have alot harder time letting go of it. Nobody likes pain. Consider the times you have had a hard time coming to grips with a certain part of your own personality (at any level) and you will be able to answer this question. <P>WIFFT,<BR>hey you. I don't understand the women's lib argument. What would you suggest? Maybe I should drop the PhD to make the guys in my lab feel more secure as men? When I read stuff like that it makes me feel totally screwed. On the other hand, I did meet one guy who actually preferred women with PhD's. He's out though, cause he was looking for good breeding stock (IMO), not an actual partner. He shops for women like he shopped for a breeder for his labrador retriever. It's kind of funny actually. Back in the day, it was enough for a woman to look good. That was the "trophy" wife. With the new knowledge-based economy we have now, I suppose my PhD could be a nice trophy for some guy. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 29, 2000).]

katgirl,<BR>Remember, its not about us, it is something in them. Yes, we contributed somehow, but it is not our fault. It is a decision they have made.<P>My counselor told me, that the WS usually feels that the marriage has been over for a long time and they get angry at us because we are now trying to patch it back together when we should have done it years ago, even though like you, many of us didn't know there was that big of problem. My x said she was unhappy for 10 yrs, yikes, isn't that something she should have told me along the way!!!<P>She is now married to the om, he is the exact opposite of me, he is the antibob. I imagine that would be exciting change from me for a while. I beleive she painted herse;f intoa corner and had no place to turn so she married om. She in turn gave up her religion, her family, her friends, and her children for the most part.<P>My counselor also told me that he felt that my x had always lived by her head, she was a borne again Christian back in the 70's and now she felt she was always unhappy. Now, he says, she is living by her heart, what ever feels good she is doing. I have to agree, there is no other reasons for her choices that I can see.<P>When we were married, she worked part time and we had a nice house. Now she is working 60 hrs per week, lives in a small, chilly and smoky house(at least thats what I have been told).<P> The kids are an after thought. She got married on the weekend of our son's 10th birthday and he adores her. She called last night and said d was sick and was concidering taking her to hospital, but she was still planning on going to work today as her om/h would be home. She refuses to take any time off work if the kids stay home from school unless they would be in the hospital, and she is a nurse!<P>So I guess there is no clear answer. All we can do is hope the clear from the "fog" if we want our marriage to be saved.

Hey TS,<P>its a well know fact that the male ego is more fragile to the female ego. And that women's entrance in to the work force and shattering of glass ceilings, can make traditional men anxious in a marriage where the women is financially independent, and has less dependence on the man, less trapped means more options.<P>the change in the dynamic of the marriage is due to the change in the workforce; it is threatening to the traditional man, not necessarily the educated or non traditional men. The good news is that it will take a few more generations to work through to slowly eliminate the men from traditional marriages as the number of double income marriage increases.<P>BTW, its is a generalization, not intended to apply to any particular situation, but a conclusion drawn from reading and deduction.<P>I vote that you continue your PhD and finish it as soon as possible. I think JL will agree with me there.<P>Tom

WIFTT,<P>I understand that what you are saying is a generalization, but perhaps this point hits too close to home for me. I believe my marriage ended (in part) because of my desire to obtain a PhD, which is a higher degree than my ex's. My first H felt threatened by my desire to finish my Bachelors. It sucks that I, as a woman, should feel pressured in any way to "choose" between pushing my personal limits intellectually and having an intimate relationship. I think you and I would both agree that MEN who fail to push their limits (financially and intellectually) usually are not considered the best mating material. On the other hand, women are encouraged to limit themselves as not to "damage" a man's ego. Is it so difficult to expect men to work on a little self-esteem? Why is dependence attractive? Easier to control, I guess. To me, that is what it comes down to. <P>And you know what else? It ain't just men who are threatened by ambitious women. Other women can be pretty insecure too. Women make up half the population, yet there are only 3 state governors out of 50 who are women. <P>Anyway, don't worry. I'll still be getting my PhD. I would still get it even if there wasn't a single man on this planet who would want me.