WIFTT,<P>It's been 25 years since I read "If you meet the Bhudda on the Road, Kill Him." It's a phenomenal book and I don't know if it is still in print or available. I am looking a it on my bookshelf right now and it brings back alot of memories. It was required reading when I was taking counselling courses in graduate school.<P>Remember "The Secret is there is No Secret!"

Well, I must admit I have never heard of that book. Hmmmm. It sounds interesting. <P>I do read quite a bit and across the board as to subject matter. Lately, I have taken a break from all the self help books and read a novel for a change. But, I think it's time to read something educational again. You know, New Years and all. Have to start the year off with a little self improvement.<P>By the way, I am an ISTJ. I have no creativity and no perception. I am borderline E/I and T/F. It just depends on the context that I take the test. If I answer from my job perspective I am an ESTJ. If I answer from my at home perspective, I am an ISFJ. Does anyone else score differently at times? <P>Jen

Jen<P>If you are an ESFJ, forget it. they are helpless people <my X is one, YUCK!> don't take it personally, my X is an extremist.<P>Anyway, that is just personality. I recommend the book, "I'm not Crazy, I'm Just Not You!" for some BM references. But I also recomment the Buddha book, it is very well written, and is not self help per se, but is about the human struggle.<P>good luck<P>tom

I've taken two tests along the Meyers-Briggs standard. The first one I came up ESFJ, and the second ISTJ. They both seem fairly on target, but I was surprised to have them come out so differently results-wise. I hope this doesn't mean I'm a schizoprenic <P>Am too!<P>Are not!!<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

Wow! I come back from the holiday's and my post really took off. I think the personality tests are very interesting. My husband is a ISTJ and I am a EIFJ. I think we work together perfectly. He has the common sense, keeps me grounded and points out the logic to things. My open personality has made a positive impact on him. He is much more open together with me then he was before we got together. Family members, co-workers and friends have all commented about how he's so much more outgoing since we got together. I admire the way he thinks things out, his intelligence. I am a perfectionist when it comes to my home and he not only is very neat and clean but appreciates the way I keep our home. Anybody have experience with these two types together??

BonnieSept,<P>I have been meaning to ask you, why on earth did you come over here and post this question in the first place?<P>did you read or hear something that we are missing?<P>tom<BR>

Well this is certainly an interesting topic to say the least.<P>I am not an expert and I am only a man so one must consider my responces in that context!<P>First, I never really dated and I just met people and went out and that was 12 years ago and I was drinking! Now I have been sober almost nine years!<P>Second, it would be nice to be attracted to the individual. I know this is hormonal ( yes ladies men do have hormones )but I think it must exist! I read something recently that said go against what you have always done to find something different. Well I can't go out unless attracted! I know that is probably shallow but none the less it is me!<P>Third, open minded and accepting of people who are different than us!<P>Forth, likes kids I have three (19, 9, 5)all boys. Kids will not meet this person unless it becomes very serious! And that is not even in the stars now! Have to meet some one first!<P>Fifth, reasonably bright, professional, driven yet recognizes what is truely important ( family, friends ) . By the way professional is a very broad term in my definition.<P>Sixth, non-drinker or social drinker for odvious reasons!<P>Seventh, likes sex and enjoys playing! Like to cuddle! <P>Eight, like to cook because I like to cook.<P>Ninth, likes Xfiles (knows who Mulder and Scully are) and plays golf or has a desire to play golf. Swims likes to be outside and be active. Like sledding in zero degree temps!<P>There are more I am sure, I have been told I am to picky and maybe so.<P>The last one is Trust Worthy, if they cheated they are out! Some one who will work at relationship, can get mad and forget it, can say they are sorry!<P>Ok enough is enough, CJ that is a long list!

WhenIFindTheTime:<P>I couldn't help but notice how you keep referring to Meyrs Briggs...I am certified to give the MBTI and interpret the results. I consider myself pretty knowledgeable since I have facilitated a hundred or so workshops on the topic. <P>The whole purpose behind the MBTI is to give you, the person a better understanding of yourself and others. There is absolutely no stats on certain types getting along better than others. Myers Briggs evaluates what your prefrences are...no one is 100%...as we mature, you learn to use the other prefrences. You stated that a woman for you must understand your introvetedness...how about you understanding someone's extrovertedness? Everyone is different...one ESTJ is different than the another ESTJ...life experiences also color people's personalities. One thing that bugs me is when people use their MBTI as an excuse for bad or rude behavior. By the way I'm an ENTP...an oddity for females...<P>Myers Briggs whole concept is to understand how and why we are different...one type is not better than the next. <BR>

Lonely Soul,<P>You are correct, I understand that, really i do. I have been admonished by Karenna for that generalization! I would understand that you would be equally unimpressed since you are qualified, and saw a generalization deduced when in fact it is untrue. I am an INTP, at about a 90% level on each one, my X is an ESFJ, at about a 90% level on each one.<P>Hey you are an ENTP, that's cool, i would think they would get along really well with an INTP. do you? <P>The hot buttons were insurmountable for each of us, but there are many more issues than that. But MBTI outcomes is a quantifiable concrete beginning point for looking at the relationship, to see what tendencies exist, <BR>what hot buttons exist, and gives a starting point to understanding without having to do alot of the Nazi style interogations.<P>And it is much easier to marry someone very similar to you than totally opposite. MBTI infers that as well as a conclusion drawn by Frank Pittman in his book, "Private Lies."<P>Also, I should have put a next at the end of the sentence, since she is neither one, but has similar characteristics.<P>So, will you forgive me for using a broad, all sweeping, characterization?<P>tom<P>

Hey Tom. I originally posted the topic because a friend of mine who is recently divorced was venting about how her ex is dating so much right after their divorce. He's even skipped a couple of his weekends with his kids because of dates. She was saying that she didn't think he should be dating yet, that it was too soon. Her and I discussed this a little. For me, my ex started dating within two weeks of our seperation. Correction, he didn't date but instead grabbed the first woman who would take him and has lived with her for the past 3+ yrs. Guess they are gonna get married now. So for him, a rebound relationship seems to have worked out, at least SO far. For me, well......long story but I had asked for a seperation from my ex because of my feelings for another man. So, I did a typical no-no by getting re-married relatively soon after my divorce, yet my marriage is great. My husband's ex wife dated a guy from her work a few months after her divorce was final. They seemed to be hitting it off really well. He had his two kids over at her house with him a lot. My two step kids spoke of him a lot. Then after about a year the relationship was done. She started dating another a yr. or two later and she didn't involve her children with. Lasted a few months where they went on a few trips together and them bam.....That one is finished now too. So it was hard for me to agree with my friend about waiting for a period of time when it seemed in these situations the one that waited was having a harder time with relationships.

You are forgiven. It is easy to make broad statments about Myers Briggs. Though there aren't any solid statistics on how one type meshes better with another...there is a new book out called, Just Your Type, which looks at ways to create satisfying relationships using tpye. I know when the MBTI is used for couples counseling, understanding the differences is what the counselor tries to focus on. For example, you are an I and your ex in an E. If she worked in a job that prohibited her from being extroverted than she most likely would come home needing to talk, hear music, the TV, go out...something to recharge. If you are an I and had been forced to work all day in an extroverted enviornment, you would need alone time...complete quiet to recharge. Put the two together and you can have misunderstandings galore. If you know this, you can work with it. Anyway, just my two cents.<P>According to MBTI, INTP's value in their relationships, mutual commitment, fidelity, support, being listened to, humor, intellectual stimulation, and companionship. How close am I? <P>I do get along with INTP's...but my type likes to argue just for the fun of it. It used to drive my ex nuts. He was an ESTP. One thing that is pretty universal with ESTP's is that they think the whole concept of MBTI is silly...they often will do what they can to beat the indicator. I haven't meant one that hasn't tried to do that.<P>Anyway...as you know MBTI is used for just about everything anymore...though it is unethical to use it as a prerequisite for hiring someone. As far as dating goes...opposites do attract...my Dad is an ISTJ and my Mom is an ENTJ and they have been married for 50 years. <P>

Opposites attract, but 4 letter differences are quite abit different than 1 letter difference and 2 letter differences.<P>I just started a sort of dating relationship with an INFP, and she understands when I speak, and I understand when she speaks.<P>The X and I could never do that. But it is more than personality, but I see that some of it was directly related to her view versus my view, and we had power struggles over the right view. less so in the beginning for reasons I need not get into here, but have in prior posts.<P>as an entp, we could have some lively debates and some interesting conversations. however, your E scares me. <P>tom

BonnieSept,<P>point to be thought about: your friend is not healed. She is concentrating on her X's actions, and that smacks of control issues.<P>If they are divorced, they should only be concerned with children issues, IMHO. Anything else is carry over of emotional baggage. Until she can give that up, she shouldn't date. <P>The answer is how fast does one heal from divorce, and understand the reasons, and take responsibility. I have seen one person struggle with her part, even though she had the first affair, her H had a revenge affair, and got the RA pregnant. And he still wants her back!<P>Healing comes from understanding the issues, being able to deal with the self, and then accept the situation. It comes from working on the self, fixing the obvious problems, but deciding to live with the less obvious problems. <P>In my case, I knew it was wrong at the start, but couldn't put my finger on why. I went back to work on my oil tanker once, wanting a divorce before kids, but people (friends?) talked me out of it 13 years. I talked to lawyers once about it 10 years ago. But we had kids, so we stayed together to work on it.<P>Then X had her MLC, plain as day, as is absolutely, positively convinced that I can't change, even though her therapist told her that we have terrible communication. She refused to work on it, just wanted out. Her OM#1 left, and OM#2 is just what she was looking for, see my previous posts about the anti-tom, 180 opposite, and she is thrilled to death (I think). but just wait until they get married, then her MI comes out, as it is only allowed with trusted to family members. Then we'll see.<P>would you like more rambling? <P>tom

What is her MI?

Tom:<P>Why would my E scare you...just curious. E doesn't mean dancing on the table with a lamp shade on your head. It just means that people who are E's get their energy from the outside world. E's are generally social people, but that doesn't mean that they don't like to be alone too. <P>One of the people I work with is an INTP..we often do workshops together. My partner hates doing workshops...it is not that she can't do them, she just prefers one on one than a large group. I, on the other hand, find one on one exhausting and love doing big workshops. <P>

well, BPD, borderline personality disorder.<P>she shows it in different ways. it comes and goes. stress brings it out.<P>Her mom has it.<P>Very weird. I thought and was led to believe it was environmental, but no, its hereditary.<P>fear of failure and highly, highly sensitive.<P>although I have a hard time distinguishing between it and being an ESFJ. its the J part which is very uncomfortable from the P perspective.<P>tom

Lonely Soul:<P>Can you describe me? I am an ISTJ. Borderline I/E and T/F. Totally S and pretty much J.<P>Does the J mean you are judgmental or something else?<P>Thanks!<P>I need to defend myself again Tom. Just kidding, Tom.<P>Jen

This has turned out to be a great topic! I want to respond to the part about whether the kids should be #1 or the new relationship or what. Here's my two cents:<P>I honestly thought I would be focusing on my children until they were off to college (7 more years), and thus I would be putting them first in my life. It never dawned on me that I might actually find someone, so when I got a crush on someone, suddenly I realized that I better think about this stuff. <P>I firmly believe that to make a strong family you must first have a strong relationship. Children are very, VERY important, but if they are the only focus of your life, then the relationship can atrophy. On the other hand, the kids have been through a trauma and deserve the focus and attention of the "original" parents. Last, but not least, I considered how I would feel about a man who put dating me ahead of his own children, and verse visa, a man who put his children ahead of his consideration of me.<P>It's a tightrope, to be sure, but I think priorities need to be flexible. For example, immediately after a divorce, I think the primary focus (90/10) should be the children and reinforcing that relationship, while simultaneously starting to remember HOW to date. As the time comes to actually try dating (70/30), I think the kids need to be kept informed honestly, and I think that it's my job to be picky and not have a "parade of men." That would be too insecure for them. Then, I think as the time comes to get exclusive, the kids definately need to be part of the consideration (might be about 50/50 at this point), because although the children do not know some of the things I've learned, I think there has to be some kind of acceptance and hopefully even a good relationship between the kids and the exclusive SO. As the SO relationship grows, I think the focus needs to shift too (30/70), but in many ways, I think the kids need to be reassured that they will always be very important to me, and that I will consider their thoughts and feelings too. Last but not least, when the time comes to remarry (10/90), that's when I think the shift of focus would be to keep the new marriage strong, while maintaining the parent relationship. <P>Okay, I know this is pretty much a novel, but first I have to concur with WIFTT/Tom that there really is not a "first" and "second" place--it's more like a balancing act that you do every day. Let's face it, there's no way a person could chose between their spouse or their kids. However, I think some preference need to be made to the spouse, once there is a marriage commitment. Too many couples put their work or their kids ahead of keeping their own relationship healthy, and well...we end up here! However, while it's dating, then exclusivity, then SO, I would think the priority and focus would be constantly changing and the balance would be constantly shifting as there is a stronger and stronger commitment. <P>I can't honestly say that I would admire a man who was just dating me, who might be utterly intoxicated with me, but who would just abandon (physically or emotionally) his kids for a date. I would really look up to a man who would say, "I care about you deeply, but my kids need me and I am their father." That's the kind of guy who would gain MAJOR brownie points with me!!<P>Whew! My fingers are tired!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

711...No, the J does not mean you are judgemental. J in Myers Briggs is the prefrence that tells you how you like to set up your life. J means that you like order, closure, and schedules. J's for the most part don't like surprises...they like to know what is happening. A cruise is a very J vacation because everything is planned in advance...no surprises. J's are the folks that are given a project and it is done wtih time to spare. They are great organizers and planners. They sometimes are very rigid and don't like have to their plans changed. <P>The fact that you are boarderline E/I means that you function as both...given the circumstances. The sames goes for the F and T. Approx. 70% of the female population are F's. That particular function has to do with how you make decisions. F's are much more subjective in using their own personal value system to make decisions...T's are completely objective. Surprise...surprise, most CEO's are T's. Not that F's can't do it, they just don't want to. <P>In a relationship, ISTJ's need fidelity, mutual support, being listened to, mutual commitment, shared values, companionshiip, and security.<P>Hope this helps.<P>Susan<P>I need to defend myself again Tom. Just kidding, Tom.<P>

great topic guys....<P>but I need to run it off and keep it for next year...<P>I'm having this year for ME, with no "man clutter".<P>However, next year, what I would love is someone who respects me, respects my position as a mother and an ex-wife, and all the baggage that that brings with it.<P>Oh who knows. I'll probably fall in love with the garbage man, go and live on a commune and live out the rest of my days barefoot and with braided hair..... At least I'd be happy.........<P>I have no idea. I'm not looking, and I don't want to find. I;m excited about having this year for me. I can be selfish where I am concerned. I don't think I've EVER had that before. I don't mean be selfish in every aspect of my life, obviously I need to consider my 2 precious bundles, and my friends and family, but just for me, for once, I want what I want. Now I just have to decide what it is that I want!!!!!!<P>Is this the ramblings of a lunatic. I don't even want to re-read it, you might have me committed.<P>big hugs to you all, and I hope you all find what you are looking for. You all deserve it.<P>love and hugs<P>Jo