<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B><BR>My wife and I had a happy marriage for years, and I too have used the analogy of my wife contracting a disease as a guide to discerning the right course of action for me. (I used Alzheimer's disease. Is it right to walk away if my wife cannot remember who I am?) When I made my wedding vows they specifically accounted for the potential (indeed the expectation) of change, and it seems to me that this is exactly the kind of situation that those vows were intended for. You don't need the vows to keep you together when everything is going beautifully.<P>A second clarification that may be helpful here involves the belief that it would be easier to start over with someone new rather than go back and clean up the mess. To some extent, I think that that belief is correct! It <I>is</I> easier. Working on a marriage, particularly a broken one, is not easy at all. The fallacy comes in because it is not actually possible to <I>start over</I>. The fact is, marriages don't have problems. People have problems. And they carry those problems with them, whether or not they enter into a new relationship. Working on a broken relationship is a lot harder, but it has the advantage of showing you pretty clearly what you need to work on.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>----------------------------------<P>Such great points, I had to break it out of one of the posts here. Your description of what "vows" mean is something that I believe, but never thought of the way you phrased it. So true - If marriage was supposed to be an "easy street" and no problems were ever supposed to surface, then why do we need to recite vows at all when we get married! For who wouldn't want to stay in a marriage that was always "perfect" and happy and joyful. Only when the relationship gets "tough" do we need to look beyond the current "hard times" and focus not only on the love we once shared and God-willing will share again, but we NEED to remember the commitment we made to each other, to God and especially to ourselves. There is never an easy way out in life - why then are so many spouses fooled into thinking that divorce is an easy way out of their current hard times.<P>Kudos on this point, GnomeDePlume.<P>Your second point is also well thought out. And I think it goes along way for ALL of us here. For not only are many of us here in hopes that somehow our marriages can be saved, we are also here to learn - to grow. I think that in and of itself shows the type of people we all are. We are looking for ways to better ourselves - our relationships. It is so true that a marriage is 50-50. Meaning if it failed, then we have no choice but to accept part of the blame, whatever that may constitute. Once we accept that some of the blame is ours, we can begin to learn from our mistakes. We can't go back and change the past, but we can take what we learn and better ourselves and our future...<P>Only can hope that our WS's somehow come to the same conclusions.<P>God Bless,<P>Mike

The question I will pose, however, is how does the dumpee gauge whether there is any residual duty to claw one's way back to the dumper?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>quote:<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<P>My wife and I had a happy marriage for years, and I too have used the analogy of my wife contracting a disease as a guide to discerning the right course of action for me. (I used Alzheimer's disease. Is it right to walk away if my wife cannot remember who I am?) </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dr. John Gottman says that one of the first things that spouses in troubled marriages do is come to the psychologist or psychiatrist and say "What can you do to fix my spouse ... he or she seems to be going nuts?" I, in fact, did it. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000164.html." TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000164.html.</A> This is not to say your spouse can't be nuts. But the point would be that it's the easy (and usually off-the-mark) label to haul out first when you wonder why a spouse is on the verge of dumping you.<P>

I agree that marriage is hard work. Vows are important, but just like anything else in life, we often don't know what we are made of or the other person until life puts us through little obstacles. A serious illness in a marriage is tough. I know first hand how tough it can be...my stbxh became very ill in the sixth year of our marriage. The illness was tough, but that isn't what made things difficult...it was how my H behaved as time went on. It became easy to blame the illness on every single thing. I take partial blame for this, since I would excuse everything, including rude and disrespectful behavior and blame it on the illness. What resulted was someone who was controlling and completely self centered. I put up with a decade of being married with all of the headaches and none of the perks. So, do you take emotional and verbal abuse because you vowed you would stay with someone? What about the vow to cherish the other person? Being cruel and calling your W horrible names isn't cherishing her. <P>I know many of the people here are the victims of an affair. I had an EA myself; not the best decision I ever made, but it certainly isn't what prompted me to want a divorce. I work in the divorce business and I knew before I knew what I would be in for. I also know the cold hard facts about marriage counseling and affairs, and the dynamics of anger, resentment, and the ability to sacrafice one's own self esteem to save a marriage. You can't make a marriage work by yourself. It won't happen. People have different views on what a marriage is...when the couple's views are different there is a problem. After an affair both parties have to want reconciliation 150%. Statistically, 98% wind up in divorce court within five years, because the pain caused from the affair is still there. <P>I agree lots of divorces happen for the wrong reasons. We live in a throw away society and people tend to be selfish and don't want to work through things when things are rough. My stbx thinks that a good H consists of someone who is a good provider and doesn't run with women. I agree...but there's a lot more to it than that. I felt taken advantage of, unloved, unappreciated, and was therefore desparately unhappy. I told him a million times about being unhappy...but as long as the shirts were ironed, and the house was clean, he never heard. He finally heard me when he found out about the EA. I was lonely...had been lonely...had told my H I was lonely. Someone came along and was nothing more than kind to me. I will never really look at that as an affair, but I grew to look forward to his daily notes. It was nice to have someone care about what I was doing and how I felt. Was I ready to pack up and leave a 15 year marriage for someone I never laid eyes on? No. But I got a glimpse of how pathetic my life had become. I somehow rallied...though...I was willing to try counseling. I wanted him to change, but things only got much worse. I saw a side to him that I never knew existed. <P>The EA ended, but I still wanted the divorce. To this day, he can't understand that it wasn't another man I wanted, it was to be treated like I mattered and not like a piece of property. The EA was the result of the problems. How can you fix those problems when the other person won't listen? Sometimes I wonder if it is a male thing...the ego not permitting them to believe that they are not the perfect husband. No offense to the men out there. In any case, he still doesn't get it. <P>He has told everyone we know that I must have been having a MLC...that I had an affair...that I am off my rocker...I want to ruin him. I know the truth. He was selfish and didn't care about me. I never had a PA...I work hard and stay home and take care of our two children. I don't want to ruin him, but only want what I am entitled to and that is a life where I don't have to be afraid.

Sisyphus,<P>You are missing the point. He is not saying that his wife is "sick" AND that is the reason they are breaking up, rather he is saying that his wife MAY be sick and that is the reason why he is willing to give her time to sort things out. We are talking more "after the fact" than "before the breakup".<P>And I agree. I don't think "sick" is the exact word for it because it generally gets such a bad connotation in the psychiatric field. I (and I believe GnomeDePlume) use it in a lesser meaning - more like a common cold. Something that usually "hits a person hard" but then gradually wears away. Or in the case with my wife, so I hope.<P>Thus, the reasons for the marital problems are there and they may be valid. But, barring any physical or psychological threat, usually (and I say usually here, there are always exceptions) the problems that exist in a marriage, exist in many different marriages and are often common mistakes made by many men and women. The only difference is in the marriages that last, both individuals realize that marriage takes work - nothing is easy in this life, and they work together to overcome the obstacles. It is only when one spouse for whatever reasons, feels that it is not worth working on the marriage, that I say they may have a "brain flu" For they choose to overlook their commitments, their vows, their love (and usually the love is still there right below the surface) and choose to leave, as it is the easy way out (or at least they think it is)....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>Sisyphus,<BR>You are missing the point. And I agree. I don't think "sick" is the exact word for it because it generally gets such a bad connotation in the psychiatric field. I (and I believe GnomeDePlume) use it in a lesser meaning - more like a common cold. Something that usually "hits a person hard" but then gradually wears away. Or in the case with my wife, so I hope.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>GDP said specifically "Alzheimers" - progressive and invariably fatal. What's this cold & flu stuff about?

<BR>I did not marry my W only because she made me happy or because I was in love. I married her because I wanted to build a family with her, to spend the rest of my life together with her. It was not conditional on her staying trim, attractive, and healthy. <P>I know we both made mistakes in our marriage, but none of them were outside of normal failures to communicate. All of them can be easily fixed. <P>The problem is that my W looks at marriage as being very disposable (her parents are divorced), and so the "no longer in love" line seems to be a perfectly adequate reason to break up the family and whatever commitment she made to it. I dunno, it just seems so shallow, that it makes me wonder if I really want to save this marriage. What if I cut off my finger next year, will that be grounds for divorce since I've changed? <P>I think GDP's point about vows and commitment is the bottom line. Some people understand what they say when they say their vows, others apparently have no clue...<P>AGG

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>I know many of the people here are the victims of an affair. I had an EA myself; not the best decision I ever made, but it certainly isn't what prompted me to want a divorce.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lonelysoul, not knowing you as a person I would never think of making a judgement on you. But I can speak from my own experience and say that my wife's Emotional Affair, definitely had something to do with her decision to divorce. NOT FOR THE PERSON SHE HAD IT WITH, but rather for the "greener pastures" syndrome that she convinced herself of - that "there is that prince charming out there who when we marry will be the perfect husband and do everything right". Then her marriage will be like the fairy-tale she always dreamed of. But deep down she knew what she was doing was wrong and that sent her straight into a depression (which of course was blamed on me).<P>Can you really say that if this person you had the EA with never appeared in your life, that you would be divorcing right now?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Statistically, 98% wind up in divorce court within five years, because the pain caused from the affair is still there. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Interesting statistic. Where is that number from though? Who were the ones interviewed for it? Seems very high to me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My stbx thinks that a good H consists of someone who is a good provider and doesn't run with women. I agree...but there's a lot more to it than that. I felt taken advantage of, unloved, unappreciated, and was therefore desparately unhappy. I told him a million times about being unhappy...but as long as the shirts were ironed, and the house was clean, he never heard. He finally heard me when he found out about the EA. I was lonely...had been lonely...had told my H I was lonely. Someone came along and was nothing more than kind to me. I will never really look at that as an affair, but I grew to look forward to his daily notes. It was nice to have someone care about what I was doing and how I felt. Was I ready to pack up and leave a 15 year marriage for someone I never laid eyes on? No. But I got a glimpse of how pathetic my life had become. I somehow rallied...though...I was willing to try counseling. I wanted him to change, but things only got much worse. I saw a side to him that I never knew existed.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"...he never heard." Here I can relate. My wife has said similar things to me. I don't know why I never "heard her" - I really don't. I think you may have hit it on the head when you said that your husband believed that a faithful, hardworking man is what a good husband is. That is exactly how I felt. That is what society ingrains in many men from the time we are children. "earn a good living - provide for your family - be faithful - then son you will be a success".<P>But that is not to say, that is all we will ever be! I have learned so much since my wife left, and in a strange kind of way I am glad she chose to leave. It made me re-evaluate my priorities of what was important in my life. Where I find fault with her though, is that she does not find it (or me) worthy to give us a second chance. Not a third chance or a fourth chance, but a SECOND chance.<P>But lonelysoul, know that just as you were hurt, you scarred your husband deeply. I speak here from personal experience. THink about it: If I believe that being faithful is one of the most important things in a marriage, how would I feel and react when I find out that the person I gave everything to (worked for and supported), turned around and went outside of our marriage? You expect your husband to change his ways and be upset at how he treated you over the past years, but then when you "cut him to the bone" you can't understand "why he is acting like he is????????". I don't mean to attack you here, because I have read this written several times throughout this site. One spouse is hurt for whatever reasons (sometimes not even on purpose by their sig other) then they go out and PURPOSELY hurt their sig other, and can't believe that he/she is acting like this.<P>It is called "the consequences of your actions". No this is not the "true" person the husband/wife always was, this is the person who has been "PURPOSELY" hurt by their spouse and is mad as *ell.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>The EA ended, but I still wanted the divorce. To this day, he can't understand that it wasn't another man I wanted, it was to be treated like I mattered and not like a piece of property. The EA was the result of the problems. How can you fix those problems when the other person won't listen? Sometimes I wonder if it is a male thing...the ego not permitting them to believe that they are not the perfect husband. No offense to the men out there. In any case, he still doesn't get it. <P>He has told everyone we know that I must have been having a MLC...that I had an affair...that I am off my rocker...I want to ruin him. I know the truth. He was selfish and didn't care about me. I never had a PA...I work hard and stay home and take care of our two children. I don't want to ruin him, but only want what I am entitled to and that is a life where I don't have to be afraid.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sounds like you have a lot of rationalization going on behind your words? You say you did have an affair, but not really. Or if you did, it was his fault anyway. You simply jump to the conclusion that so many other women do, that "men just don't listen". Could it possibly, just possibly be the way women communicate to men? Never trying to really understand men, rather they choose to just continue saying the same thing, in the same tone, in the same way over and over again. I am not defending men here, I am only saying that communication BETWEEN the sexes is extremely different that communication between members of the same sex.<P>I don't know your husband, I don't know your story, but it just sounds like you don't feel you have any responsibility for your actions. And when your husband found out about your EA, which is an affair, you push the blame back on him and then criticize how he reacted....<P>Sorry if this sounds like an attack, but ya hit a raw nerve here. Similar events with my wife. I took/take responsibility for my mistakes. I have apologized again and again to her. More than that I have rearranged my life and priorities to be the person not only she wanted me to be, but to the person I always wanted to be. But she still to this day takes no responsibility for "her" actions. Sure she will speak the words "yes I had a part in the problems", but she is so far away from truly believing them...<P>She continues to live and believe the same things. I guess it will take another marriage and maybe another one after that before she realizes that she may have issues that need to be addressed and that it was not just her first, second and/or third husband's fault.<P>Before we look to judge another, first we should take a hard deep look at the person we see in the mirror...<P>Mike<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited January 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> GDP said specifically "Alzheimers" - progressive and invariably fatal. What's this cold & flu stuff about?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think we still aren't on the same page... He used Alzheimers as an example of his wife forgetting their love and marriage - not that she was losing all memories and such. I used "the cold & flu stuff" because I was trying to say that I don't believe my wife is literally "sick in the head" and in need of serious help. Maybe that is why everyone here calls it "the fog" - In saying it this way you are identifying it as temporary and not a serious malidy.<P>Any clearer??<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B> I think we still aren't on the same page... He used Alzheimers as an example of his wife forgetting their love and marriage - not that she was losing all memories and such. I used "the cold & flu stuff" because I was trying to say that I don't believe my wife is literally "sick in the head" and in need of serious help. Maybe that is why everyone here calls it "the fog" - In saying it this way you are identifying it as temporary and not a serious malidy.<BR>Any clearer??</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I just was looking at GDP's words, and if it is fog, in his estimation it's fog that will never lift. I didn't mean to suggest that her inability to reconnect with him would debilitate and kill her, just that it was much more than a passing disenchantment, more likely a permanent condition (at least as GDP sees it).<P>

SoTired2000:<P>I don't take offense. On the surface it does sound like I was an ingrate and blame my husband for all of my unhappiness. I don't expect anyone to understand who doesn't know me, him, or the situation. I don't place blame on my husband for me engaging in an EA. There is so much more to my situation than just feeling unloved and wanting romance. I forgave my H for his out of control behavior after discovery. I wanted to address the problems in the marriage, he only could see the EA as the problem. <P>The EA I speak of was nothing serious. I met someone on the internet who started writiing to me. I had no idea what he looked like...we never discussed meeting. I agree I shouldn't have participated, but I did. I can't change that. That was a year ago. Since that time, a lot has happened. My H tried to strangle me in front of our children...I had to have the locks changed and get a restraining order. You probably are thinking, well, what did she do? I did nothing, but refuse to hug him. He has threatened to burn the house down and has told me several times he wishes I were dead. I could go on and on, but I won't. He tells me he loves me and then tells me he wants to get married to someone else. He has crossed the boundries of what is appropriate and what isn't. Now, I ask you, does that sound like a man who loves his wife and family? I don't live in a romantic mist. I have lived in an abusive unhealthy relationship. I have had bugs installed on my computer, had my email read, have had phone calls in the middle of the night to make sure I am home, I have had PI's following me...and all of this after the divorce was filed. Yes, he didn't run around. Yes, he worked. But he also hurt me emotionally and physically. He hurt his children. That is wrong. I am not rationalizing. I know I was a good wife, but I am also a human being with feelings and needs. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>The question I will pose, however, is how does the dumpee gauge whether there is any residual duty to claw one's way back to the dumper?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps a more appropriate question would be: how does the dumpee gauge whether there is any residual duty to wait for the dumper to rejoin the dance?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>I think we still aren't on the same page... He used Alzheimers as an example of his wife forgetting their love and marriage - not that she was losing all memories and such. I used "the cold & flu stuff" because I was trying to say that I don't believe my wife is literally "sick in the head" and in need of serious help. Maybe that is why everyone here calls it "the fog" - In saying it this way you are identifying it as temporary and not a serious malidy.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>Well, I just was looking at GDP's words, and if it is fog, in his estimation it's fog that will never lift. I didn't mean to suggest that her inability to reconnect with him would debilitate and kill her, just that it was much more than a passing disenchantment, more likely a permanent condition (at least as GDP sees it).</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There's a limit to how far you can stretch an analogy. I don't know whether my wife's emotional/psychological condition is permanent or not. Maybe she will snap out of it, or maybe it will torment her for the rest of her life. All I know is that I personally can't abandon her just because she has forgotten who I am, and all the good things about our relationship.<P>My wife does need help, and I believe her malady is indeed serious. But she isn't so "sick in the head" that I can have her involuntarily forced into some kind of psychological treatment. That probably wouldn't work anyway, since effective progress on her kind of problem must be volitional. No, there's only one kind of treatment that can be legally compelled.<P>In our day of "no-fault" divorce that treatment takes place in the courthouse rather than the hospital, where the lawyers and judges will "help" her throw away everything she and I worked for over the twelve years of our marriage.<P>I suppose it's kind of a throwback to the day when leeches were used indiscriminately in medical practice too...<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited January 05, 2001).]