Hi all just back from Pa again third trip since x-mas. Getting old that 500ile journey. bad weather too. This week went well . My wife and I got along great tuesday night, wedesnday and most of thursday. It just seems that after two or three days something goes wrong. I let her down,or I push to hard, or i forget to take care of something that I promised to do. Then it starts ( the negative loop) She withdraws, I push, She tells me what I did or didn't do, I get defensvie try to explain myself or vice a versa) Any advice on how to avoid this scenc. It happens just about everytime that I am getting ready to leave. Help?

This is not really advice, just an observation. My H will get angry because I did or did not do something, so I try to tell him why, and then he explodes that I am just "making excuses". They are not excuses -- they are explanations. So I auto. get defensive because I do not enjoy the blame/shame of "making excuses". Sure it would be a whole lot easier if each of us just did what we always should do -- but we don't.<p>Something she does when confronting you triggers your defensiveness -- and that behavior (as we all know) is detrimental to our marriages. Maybe try to figure out what is your 'trigger' and talk with her about it when ya'll are in a positive communication point.<p>Defensiveness is caused by offensiveness, so remember that this is not something that you are causing on your own.<p>Maria

The weeks my H & I were back together, the atmosphere by Sunday pm when we were both home on the weekend was always tense. Finding something fun to do (shared recreation) helped. So did taking brief breaks from each other--like getting groceries, take-out, or washing the car.<p>I know this sounds rather simplistic, but I think spending 4 days together (with no work for either of us) over Christmas with cold/bad weather to keep us inside was part of what made my husband leave again.

Maria, I don't agree that defensiveness is always caused by offensiveness at all. I believe that defensiveness is far more often a result of guilt than anything else. That is not to say that there are never triggers for some people - but some people can be defensive because you've simply asked them what's up today - no triggers, no disrespect, nothing but a casual question.<p>In rusty's case, I can't help but wonder if the two of them are both sabotaging any progress they've made during their visit by subconsciously making the parting adversarial. That way, someone must be to blame for them still being apart.<p>The best way to stop a particular behavior is to make it a habit to take a deep breath and think before acting or speaking. It takes work and practice, but there isn't any other way that I know of.<p>terri

I think Terri may have hit on something here. I saw my wife this afternoon for the first time since earlier in the week. We both went to watch our daughter's soccer game. As we watched the game, we just made small talk -- very casual and friendly, with NOTHING said about our relationship and all the STUFF. Yet at the end, when the game was over and we were leaving -- them home and me back to my office/home -- I wanted MORE. I didn't want to just accept the pleasant time I'd had for what it was worth -- I wanted it ALL. It really took a lot of effort to not say ANYTHING. I know that if I had, it would have been a love buster. Today was a good example of a baby step. But it would have been so easy to have really screwed it up at the end, because that was what my instincts were telling me to do. Patience, I keep telling myself. But I'm quickly running out. I know how you're feeling, rusty.

Thanks for all the replies,<br>Marie,<br>My wife does the same thing she blames me for something, I try to explain she says she is tried of all the excuses I get upset because to me they are not excuses. I feel that she does not understand that life can throw up all kind of roadblocks. But when I think about it, if I give her my word then I should fullfill it no matter what so not only do I feel guilty about getting defensive but I feel guilty in not doing what I said I would. LOr,<br>This happens also. I would rather spend all my time with her and the kids. She would rather have her friends and sociall life. It makes me feel rejected. I give her all kinds of suggestions for us to do together but she would rather do somethings by herself. Rejection big time. At least I have curtailed my anger outbursts it helps.<br>Terri-<br>I agree with you that my wife is sabatogeing things because she needs that little bit of anger against me to help her deal with the time apart. it justifies her actions by not getting back together. but here is the kicker<br>Slow-<br>I to want it all so I push. I push and I push. I am not doing it to sabatage us. I am doing it because I do not want to leave but I have to because she tells me I do. I have to leave my wife, my kids everytime. Does she have to leave the kids. No. She says she wants time and space to discover her own feelings. Ok then leave the kids with me and go find your feeling. Go alone and soul-search. Think about us. Take all the time you want. Come back to me strong and confident but don't take everything from me and then tell me you can't think because of the kids, work ect. Why is it that the mother thinks she has the right to the children? I have put in just as much love, time, money and effort to raise our children as she has. Is it fair to take everything from me? So I guess it comes down to the belief that for her seperation is right and for me that seperation is wrong. I guess it means that everytime I leave I am not just leaving my wife but I am leaving everything that I love and treasure. Do you understand the pain that that causes to leave your heart's desire time after time after time. Do you understand what type of resentment that cause towards the person making you leave what you love? Seperation is not the answer at least not for me.

I hear you, rusty. And believe me, I FEEL your pain. I feel the exact same way right now. I agree with every word you said. My wife has OUR kids, OUR home, OUR possessions, virtually everything WE spent 21 years together creating. Since our separation last August, the only thing different in HER life is that I'm not there. For me, however, EVERYTHING is different. She has no idea the loss that I feel every waking moment, not just for her, but for almost everything in life that defined WHO I WAS. Meanwhile she's too self-absorbed with the day-to-day demands of being a single parent with six kids to spend any time thinking about us and our marriage. So far it hasn't crossed her mind that perhaps her life might get a little easier if I was there to help out. And guess what, if I WAS there, we just might be able to start making some progress towards getting our relationship back on track. God forbid she might fall in love with me and find happiness again. What is it in her thinking I haven't been able to see or comprehend?<p>Is this a pity party? If so, count me in!! I'm definately in the mood today .

A pity party? sounds great. I could use a little pity. My family thinks I am nuts to try to save my marriage so they don't talk to me. My wife would rather do her thing so no pity there. Her family thinks I am some type of stalker because I travel 500 miles just about every week to see my wife and kids and to try to rebuil my marriage no pity there. So everyone and everything is against us right. Guess what I don't care. If none wants to understand my veiws then I will be a lone adventurer trying to save my life as I know it. My wife left me know choice. Pity or respect it just would be nice for someone to see that this road I am traviling is the hard way but the right way. Your wife slow is doing what mine is doing running away so she does not have to make a decsion. And if we push them to make a decsion we all know what that decsion will be so we do what we must. no fun but is it worth it? time will tell.

Rusty,<br>I sympathize with you about the family situation. My mother keeps asking me why I am still at home when my wife makes me miserable. Almost an encouragement to leave. AND SHE DOESN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT MY WIFE'S AFFAIR! My sister feels the same way. But, since they both know that this is what I want, they are (somewhat) behind me. Don't listen to others, just do what you have to/want to do.<br>Rusty/slowlerner,<br>I sometimes wonder if things would better if my wife and I separated. Taking pressure off of us to be so cordial at ALL times. I think that living together puts added pressure in most all situations. Intimacy feels forced. Even just being alone with each other is extremely tense. The pushing that SL feels is a constant struggle with me. I want it all, too. And sleeping next to the woman that I love, makes it all the more harder to hold back and not push. <br>My resolve not to separate is waning. However, my wife is still pretty strongly against it. I guess that says something.<br>

Rusty,<p>Just a observation:<p>When you notice a negative response from your wife, APOLOGIZE!!! Don't push, don't explain, don't defend, don't rationalize. At most, politely ask what you did wrong. When she tells you (and she may not until she trusts your response), apologize, thank her for being honest, and then try not to repeat that behavior again.<p>You're going to have to break that loop. And becuase you probably love your wife more than she does you, guess who get's to carry the burden for a while.<p>I'm guessing that while you were with your wife, she found that having you around was an additional demand rather than a help. Even if you helped in some ways, you demanded in others.<p>Leave the demands behind. Concentrate on the positives (eliminate lovebusters, provide for needs). With time (and it'll take some), you will make slowly make deposits in her love bank, and you will (hopefully) avoid withdrawals. It's the baby steps approach: but you really have to be consistant in the elimination of lovebusters or she's going to think "He'll never change".<p>An example from this weekend: I came down too hard on our son for something he did. My wife got mad at me for it. In the old marriage, that would have been it: resentment on both sides.<p>Instead, she came into me and apologized for getting upset with me. I apologized for overreacting to our son. We sat and 'brainstormed' (following the Policy of Joint Agreement) until we came up with a 'novel' way to handle his punishment. It was her idea, too. That's the way the marriage ought to work. But it takes time and patience to get there.

K,<br>What do you do when your wife says "don't apologize"? <br>She is not sick of hearing the apology. She keeps saying that I have nothing to apologize for. It's tough to eliminate the love busters, when apoligizing for them, is a love buster, itself.

I'd listen to your wife. If she says 'don't apologize', then I wouldn't apologize. At least not in the way that you have been apologizing.<p>Saying "I'm sorry" 500 times a day for trivial things can be annoying. Or for apologizing when you didn't have control over the situation, or it wasn't your fault. But I can usually see and sense when my wife is hurt, and that's usually a great time to say "I'm sorry" or to offer some show of support.

Bill --<p>I spent nearly four years agonizing over the separate/not separate question. So many times I felt like I'd reached the limit of what I could handle, and that I couldn't live with her even one more day. But somehow, I kept hanging on. <p>Then one day (last August), I finally DID reach my pain threshold and left. Now, after five months apart, with final divorce only weeks away, I feel like all I did was jump from the frying pan into the fire. It's hard to see that when you're in the pan dancing like crazy to keep your feet from burning though.<p>Of course, when you're in the fire it's pretty hard to see things clearly, also. Perhaps one day I'll look back at all this and say that for whatever reason it was necessary. It's brought me closer to God and helped me to learn a lot more about myself, and things I need to change. So I've already seen a lot of good from this.<p>But unfortunately, the experience doesn't seem to be having the same affect on my wife. The only changes I've seen in her have actually been negative. If we are to ever have a successful relationship in the future, I think she needs to experience some of the same growth that I have. Otherwise she/we will be doomed to keep repeating many of the same mistakes that got us to where we are right now.<p>No advice here -- just be aware that no matter how bad you're feeling right now, it could get worse by you leaving. A whole lot worse. I've often thought that if I'd found Dr Harley's books and this website six months ago, our separation would have been completely unneccessary. At least then we shared a bed and had the opportunity to talk some every day. And back then she still said she loved me. All of that's history now.

slow,<br>Unfortunately, my wife has told me that she doesn't (didn't) love me. She said she needed time to re-find her love for me. Only in the past few weeks has she told me that she loved me. But, not "that way", yet.<br>One of the things I keep discussing with my therapist is whether I would be better off separated, than together. It has been six months, but feels like an eternity. <br>I have stopped telling her that I love her, since her reply ("I know") hurt tremendously, by not hearing the "I Love You TOO".<br>Her issues are mostly with herself. She is depressed about her life, what she has done, and her future. This, of course, makes it extremely difficult for me and the kids. She can go for days seemlingly ok, and then her depression takes over. This sets me off, and things get worse. I have to learn to control myself while she works on her problems with her therapist.