<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragamuffin:<BR><B>Sisyphus,<P>1. "My experience is that I allowed myself to grow cold, and harden"<P>2. "How much better it might have been if I had chosen to remain alone and work on myself"<P>Those are your words. <P>Because of the way you respond to many respected MB forum members and "newbies" in my opinion, you could use some work on #1 & #2.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>At Ragamuffin's, request, I'm moving this to its own thread to clean up the "Divorce Ceremony" thread.<P>Perhaps, as the French department store clerk said to Bette Midler after reducing her to tears, my love of intellectual debate has been mistaken for hostility.<P>Of course I need work on #1 and #2 ... it's taken a while to figure that out. I'm hoping that a few other people can save themselves from going the long way around.<P>Divorce is a world-shaking experience (if not nearly world-shattering). Perhaps sometimes I'm out of line to provide even the slightest nudge. But the conditions that precede divorce, and the extreme emotions it produces, can lead to all sorts of extreme thinking. The extreme I'm starting to become most attuned to is the extreme passivity that comes after some misguided initial flurry of panicked action subsides. We think it's *over*. Well, not necessarily. It's just that what we were trying didn't immediately work. <P>So, what I may say may sometimes cut against the grain of a person's thinking. That is going to cause a reaction, bigtime. And I'm going to come back and touch that hotspot again. Maybe I never get through to them. But you won't find me name-calling, demeaning, or anything else (especially a newbie) ... when every emotional nerve is raw, just nudging hurts bad enough, and I know that. <P>If someone has been around a while, I might be a little less gentle. But I trust you all will keep me in line. And if anyone wants to hear something really extreme, they can just tune in Dr. Laura's radio show. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 09, 2001).]

although I love an intellectual debate, the problem with them, particularly with lawyers who are schooled on the art of logic and debate, is that there is always another point or possibility to consider, there has to be another door to find to go through. ie, don't give up.<P>Well, in the practical world, and I use stock trading as my example, there are two decisions when the position has gone against you: Dec 1) where you capitulate and sell at a loss, and Dec 2) hold on and hope that your investment doesn't capitulate, and becomes worthless.<P>One is within your control, the other is beyond your control. Holding and hoping may work, but your control and your returns wane as the loss of control is traded for the hope of a positive return. As with stocks or marriage, making an investment in a strong, proven stock or W is the soundest approach. However, even that soes not guarentee success.<P>Some here use the first decision to minimize the personal, long term permanent damage. Others, who are more hopeful, use the second, but the second may cause more and deeper emotional losses in an already limited lifespan.<P>Everyone has their own choice, and assuming they have thought through their own position, knowing it better and more intimately than they can describe here, make one of the two choices. The fact that the implied goal at this board is die hard pro-marriage, meaning long term investment ONLY and WS day trading is STRICTLY PROHIBITED, there is an overtone that Sit.2 is the only outcome, and once situation 1 has occurred, then one should stop trading.<P>So, the constant display of decision 2 as the only alternative is very stifling, even in intellectual debate as applied to the real world.<P>tom<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited January 09, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>So, the constant display of decision 2 as the only alternative is very stifling, even in intellectual debate as applied to the real world.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course there's a time to roll over, let go, cut loose; however you want to put it. People don't hang around here because they're at that point. They still have unfinished business. If and when that point comes, you want to:<P>1) Be certain you've done everything you could, the best way possible; and <P>2) Hopefully have exhausted all residual feelings toward the ex-spouse.<P>That's what Harley's Plan A and Plan B are all about. Believe me, no one wants to prolong anyone's pain, or increase it (except where such a short-term increase might pay off in the future).<P>Folks are on here who actually *have* hit that final breakpoint. You *never* hear *anything* from them that gives you the slightest glimmer otherwise. Other folks still have some roads to travel...

WIFTT,<P>On this board isn't it really a case of doing ones homework before deciding on option #1 or #2? It seems to me people using the Harley method are in the "research" phase before deciding to sell out or liking the long term chances of success.<P>You want to make sure your decision is made on the best data, that you have done all the research you can do, before making the decision to take a loss and invest elsewhere or ride it out and risk losing even more.<P>Spoken like a true scientist right? Love that research stuff. <P>Interesting thoughts.<P>JL

Boys, boys, boys...<P>What I value most about this board is the degrees of emotional vs detached responses to any given question. There are members all down the emotional spectrum of marriage and divorce. <P>From Sisyphus I tend to get my left brain exercised - logical, detached, well thought out responses with just a touch of rhetoric that the English teacher in me loves. Not always the "safe" and expected answer - but always one that makes me think and question my own motives in the way I deal with my stbx. A good exercise that occasionally hurts.<P>From cOOker - I receive a more emotional response - call it right brain - and someone who is almost down to the hour, travelling the same timeline I am in a very similar marriage demise situation. I feel empathy here...and the safety of not having any of my emotional buttons pushed. Call it "comfort posts."<P>From WIFFTy - I realize that not everyone named Tom is a jerk (sorry that's the name of my stbx). Thanks WIFFTy.<P>I could go on and on...<P>This board and my new friends on it have become my emotional lifeline for the time being.<P>I need all of you responding with your various personalities and perspectives...I pick and choose among the advice and find the right path for me.<P>Just my two cents... <P>Lisa<P>

Decision 1 is ALWAYS available to everyone, its a door that is always open. However, i am not the type of person that uses that particular door very quickly or with out good reason, thought and time consideration. There is a wall of fire on the other side of the door you have to walk through holding little hands that may or may not make it to the other side without burns and scars.<P>Other people have more or less tolerance for fire than I do. I don't particularly have much tolerance for fire, and therefore, spend the time trying the alternatives. My X grew up with fire, has developed a psychie that will try the fire very easily because she grew up with fire all around her.<P>My point being there are two decisions, although I am not necessarily strictly making any required basis for coming to the decision. However, each person CAN come to their own decision, and respect should be given for that person's choice. Its not your choice. This debate reminds me of the monster thread between Exhausted Man and Tired Lady where they both participated, EM defended his view, and chose his affairee AFTER giving TL ample opportunity to reconcile. TL laid herself open to her flaws that drove her to sabotage reconciliation. It was a wonderful, post mortem analysis of their life, and their decisions.<P>However, if you read the responses of particularly JUNIOR MEMBERS, and some others, some did NOT respect their final decision, did not respect the time and effort each had put forth, and kept badgering them to reconcile, there was still a chance, etc. there is a point of stubbornly holding your own views to the situation of others, and there is a point where you can support others in difficult decisions BECAUSE it is their life and decision. One may not agree with it, but one should respect their decision by extending sympathy, or support, or agreeing to disagree that you would not have taken that action.<P>But continued disrespect for someone's decision, although contrary to what you would do, is tiresome, and unproductive at times, especially when it is dec #2.<P>tom<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited January 09, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>However, if you read the responses of particularly JUNIOR MEMBERS, and some others, some did NOT respect their final decision, did not respect the time and effort each had put forth, and kept badgering them to reconcile, there was still a chance, etc. there is a point of stubbornly holding your own views to the situation of others, and there is a point where you are support others in difficult decisions BECAUSE it is their life and decision. One may not agree with it, but one should respect their decision by extending sympathy, or support, or agreeing to disagree that you would not have taken that action.<P>But continued disrespect for someone's decision, although contrary to what you would do, is tiresome, and unproductive at times.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't have any affiliation with Scientology, and haven't spent much time around it. But I do know they do use a galvanic device (one aspect of the polygraph) to measure "reactions" caused by "engrams". These "reactions" are to random words. If you react, you have an engram that needs to be "cleared". Engrams are emotional responses to words. They supposedly block clear thinking. Working through to the root of that reaction supposedly helps you.<P>If someone really has moved on, you don't get much of a reaction from them when you suggest that they might do otherwise. They let it go and so do you. But if there is a flash of anger or some other strong emotion it shows that there is still something there. Maybe it is just a leftover, and is quickly dispelled. But maybe that person still needs to be working on their relationship with the STBX or X. Perhaps not with the goal of getting back together, perhaps just to lay old animosities to rest.<P>Dr. Harley's Plan A and Plan B pretty much get people through these issues. But a lot of folks come here without knowing about them or having done them. I read about them during my troubles, but it never occurred to me that I should apply them in the *absence* of an affair. I don't know where Dr. Harley's thinking is today, but he has literature hanging around that seems to confine Plans A and B to the affair situation only, when they may have much wider application. I think it is important to rewrite the Plans so that they encompass marital breakup from virtually *any* cause.<P>If you've never done a good Plan A and Plan B, you aren't "done" and ready to move on. I have now found that out; to my chagrin. There has not yet been any severe consequence, but I can see the possibility. It's hard to admit this. I don't want other people doing it if I can successfully counsel otherwise.

This is directed at Sisyphus and only Sisyphus:<P>Well, I'm sorry to say that I have had about enough, and I can not sit idly by while judgements are being thrown around left and right. Let me start with the comments toward c00ker/Nick, because they have definately hit a raw nerve with me. I can honestly say that I am offended at the way you did NOT take the time to learn anything about him or his situation or what happened, yet you DID take the time to presume that you knew enough to advise him. Now, Nick is certainly a grown man able to fight his own battles, but I can say that I've been his friend and we've been in the trenches together, and throughout the entire time I've known him, he worked strenuously hard to save his marriage. He tried to learn his wife's needs; he spent hours, days and weeks learning about himself and becoming a better man, father, and husband; he was gentle, thoughtful and kind to his wife when she was hard-hearted, selfish and mean to him. When she moved out, he persisted. When she took another man, he persisted. When she said, "I don't love you anymore," he did not blame her and turn bitter, but rather looked within himself to see where he could improve. When she said, "I don't want to live together anymore," he told her he loved her but he couldn't stop her. And when she said, "I don't want to be married to you anymore, " he cried and told her that was not how he felt. For months he worked on it, and for another couple of months now, he has continued to stay on the civil, honest, behave-like-a-decent-human being pathway while simultaneously trying to cope with, deal with and accept the fact that what he wants may not--and to be honest, probably will not--happen. <P>Now here you come, after spending no time finding out all the work, effort and tears that have gone into this marriage, and you presume to tell him that his wife may have left him because of his "along for the ride" attitude. Without so much as minimal investigation, you cast around judgements on people and their situations, and yet have the nerve to say you are not judging. Well, judging is forming an opinion , concluding, determining, or making up your mind before you have all the facts, and you sure as shooting don't have HALF the facts on this one. <P>What in the world made you conclude that c00ker/Nick had a precipitous change of emotion and abandoned intention and attachment overnight? Any kind of research or effort on your part? NO!!!! I know, because I speak from the experience of a friend. Without so much as looking up old posts, you start speaking to him of being angry and presume that he acted out in anger! What a crock! And when you wrote: "can't you find one little olive branch to extend to her". MY GOD! Do some learning before you talk! Nick's wife is not a totally evil woman, but rather, she is DETERMINED and will not be dissuaded! When you write that he gave her a "one shot" reconciliation attempt, I almost came unglued! What in the world are you talking about? Do you even bother to look, or do you just miscellaneously talk with your brains disengaged? She told him on August 9th and by September 9th she was gone--who gave who the "one shot"? Damn! He would have had to have been perfect in one month! <P>I enjoy an intellectual debate as much as the next guy, but it is NOT intellectual, nor is it a debate, when you jump to conclusions, do not have knowledge of the topic, and do not throw out options but rather opinions, determinations, and conclusions! The idea of intellectual debate, in my opinion, presumes that both parties have the understanding that it is a debate, both parties have some knowledge of the topic to be debated, and both parties understand that they will present their side and consider the other side. Furthermore, although debater #1 may firmly believe in his opinion and debater #2 may just as firmly believe in his opinion, BOTH parties agree to keep an open mind and acknowledge that the other party may have a point or something to teach them. None of these criteria have ever been met in any posting that I have seen from you, and to continue to insult us and then try to say that you are debating us is just ludicrous and demeaning. At no time have I ever seen an open-minded acceptance of what others have to say or the least little possibility that someone might actually be able to teach YOU something. As I said at the beginning of this post, I have had enough!!!<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> If you've never done a good Plan A and Plan B, you aren't "done" and ready to move on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Is that the only Plan available to one? what about when your X takes you to plan D immediately, with no warning, no discussion, very little time, and a total disregard to any plans? In fact, she told me that Harley was sexually biased, and my X only tries everything once. She and I did counseling 10 years ago, and that got us to midlife. However, there are people who suffer from lack of intelligence, poor breeding, mental illness, etc. In other words, your investment just went to zero, and you have little choice but to figure out how to recover from the loss? You can call it what ever plan you want, but the reality is that you have to figure out how to heal yourself, each individual is different, and there are 26 different Plan options. Plan A & B offer a much higher return on the investment, but others prefer to learn by experience, some never learn. <P>Plans A and B are action plans which you can implement, designed to recover your investment, but recovery is NOT guaranteed, not is it considered free from hurt. But it is a proven plan that works under alot of conditions, just not all. <P>To assume that is the only answer is arrogant, it may be the best answer to you, but not to everyone.<P>BTW, did you read the thread?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>Well, I'm sorry to say that I have had about enough, and I can not sit idly by while judgements are being thrown around left and right.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Reread ... and find a judgment there if you can. There are only questions. The questions may hurt. But I'm not probing for vulnerabilities just to watch people squirm. If I see exhaustion, my heart goes out to the BS who's exhausted. But I don't want them to *stay* down if there's some fight left in them. <P>The issue is not how long it's been. How many olive branches one has extended. How many times one has been rebuffed. How many light bulbs did Edison try before one stayed lit?<P>The issue is: if there's still "a ride" one should not just be "along for the ride". I made no presumptions about anger, but after a while it's certainly understandable, though always unproductive. I never said being "along for the ride" is why the wife left him, but I did say that it might have contributed to their marital breakup (meaning the continuing process *after* he capitulated). It certainly doesn't contribute to a possibility of reconciliation. If cOOker said "I just *can't* do it anymore" that would be a far different thing. That's not what I was reading. Only the individual can discern the difference between defeatism and actual defeat.<P>It's not your battle. It may not even be cOOker's battle. It may be over. Or not. I know it hurts. I know it hurts you to read these things. All of us are hurting now, or have been hurting in the past. If you want to reach out to cOOker, that's fine. If you want to tell me I overstepped, that's fine. If you want to presume that I don't have a background, or don't care, or don't understand, that's fine too. I weigh my words, trying to use them appropriately. I can certainly miss the target. But if I have provoked outrage, it was not with any desire to do so. The person who is outraged needs to look within themself for the cause of the outrage; I just don't believe I am it. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 09, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>Plans A and B are action plans which you can implement, designed to recover your investment, but recovery is NOT guaranteed, not is it considered free from hurt. But it is a proven plan that works under alot of conditions, just not all. <P>To assume that is the only answer is arrogant, it may be the best answer to you, but not to everyone.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, when you're beyond Plan B, there is no "relationship" left -- I view Plans C and D, etc. as red herrings. If someone finds that thread, I'll look at it.

that assumes Plans A-C, E-Z are sequential, which would be deducted from the Harley methods; however, they may be parallel or equal options, not necessarily sequential.<P>so I take it you voted for Harley for president?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>that assumes Plans A-C, E-Z are sequential, which would be deducted from the Harley methods; however, they may be parallel or equal options, not necessarily sequential.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can't make sense of this. Must be that old head injury of mine.<P>For me, anything that's not Plan A or Plan B comes under the heading of "going back to living your life--without any regard to the ex-spouse". If you're contacted some time later by the ex-spouse, then depending on where you are in your life, you may have to decide between reactivating the Plan B shield, or starting over. If your new life precludes your involvement, Plan B is your only option.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>so I take it you voted for Harley for president?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, no, in truth I feel kind of gypped because Plans A and B were expounded for the "affair" case, but their application was not advocated for other marital breakups. Perhaps I am wrong in thinking that they have broader applicability. <P>If I had recognized Plans A and B as having broader applicability, I think I might be in a different place now, perhaps even with an intact marriage.

right, you have a very narrow view, only the one currently being discussed, with a limited ability to conceptually relate the current topic to a non specified situation. whereby innovation and additional growth takes place.<P>its the compartmentalization approach to life. it lacks the ability to think out of the box, the compartment.<P>its the J in MBTI<P>tom

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> But if I have provoked outrage, it was not with any desire to do so. The person who is outraged needs to look within themself for the cause of the outrage; I just don't believe I am it. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you don't wish to provoke outrage, perhaps you should be a bit more circumspect with your choice of adjectives. <P>I am always careful to try to only say things on the internet that I would say in person as well. It's a pity that everyone doesn't adhere to the same standard.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by c00ker:<BR><B>I am always careful to try to only say things on the internet that I would say in person as well. It's a pity that everyone doesn't adhere to the same standard.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's no help. I can be blunt in person too.<BR>

Whew!! Another heated thread...<P>I read here everday...I used to post here everyday too...<P>I asked for your experience, I've shared mine...<P>I try not to read between the lines...Looking for something that I can construe as judgemental...<P>I don't call names...<P>I'll damn sure step on your toes if they're out there...As I expect mine to be stepped on...<P>There have only been a few posts in the 15 months I have been comming here that have not been loving and careing in nature...<P>When I do see something that I <B>"feel"</B> is directed to me in a judgemental way...I am forced to see if that point is valid...90% of the time <B>I</B> misconstrue the intent of the the replier!!!<P>I read this thread and the one on the Divorce Ceremony...I found nothing offencive...you may say..But Bill, it wasn't directed towards me...I say yes it was...because sysphus(sp?) IMHO <B>WAS</B>refering to me inhis reply to nick...he,or is it she??, was putting out a thought for all of us...making sure <B>WE</B> know we have exhausted every possibility...I read that he/she, sorry sysphus thinks they could have done more...I for one am grateful for that shareing of experience...I need those checks now and again...<P>CJ, Nick...I love you guys... <P>Sysphus...TY for the emotion check...I am grateful!<P>Bill<P><P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

Sisyphus,<BR>Not only are plan A and B expounded for the "affair" case, they are generated with the sexually betrayed spouse in mind and noone else. Like a sexually betrayed spouse is the only one who has been betrayed, or is the only one who might still want the marriage. <P>Being a scientist myself, I understand that he has to narrow the topic in order to study it sufficiently. <P>I like your debates. You notice I haven't shied away from your insights. How does one know what areas need healing if they are not even sure which areas are injured? When we go to doctors, they probe and poke, looking for sore spots or irregularities. When I have an emotional reaction to what someone says here, I think "AH,HA. There's something I need to look at here!" I'll be the first to admit that I could work on my bedside manner (who couldn't?). You just keep it coming, my friend.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 09, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> It's no help. I can be blunt in person too.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"churlish"<BR>ADJECTIVE: 1. Lacking in delicacy or refinement: barbarian, barbaric, boorish, coarse, crass, crude, gross, ill-bred, indelicate, phillistine, rough, rude, tasteless, uncivilized, uncouth, uncultivated, uncultured, unpolished, unrefined, vulgar.<P>That's not blunt that's insulting. Flex your internet muscles at someone else.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

Bill,<P>sniffle, sniffle, <P>do you love me too?<P>sniffle, sniffle, <P>HHHOOONNNNKKKK into a kleenex.<BR>