Would you believe it? Sexual fulfillment is right up there on top (ok, strike that on "top part"--I'm getting a little too informative here.) with me as well. Next to having a recreational partner. And the affection thing. (Hey, I AM a chick.)<P>But sex is only part of a partnership-not the whole deal. Like the frosting on the cake.<P>And it is the very best with someone you have vowed to share your life with--why settle for seconds?<P>I liked your initial post, Monsieur Gnome de Plume. It spoke volumes to me. You seem to be a very dedicated, strong, loving man.<P>Oh. . .<P>And thank you, Tex, for agreeing with my list of traits. I don't have a barn myself. Maybe someday. . .after being ditched, I would settle on a washing machine right now <p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited January 11, 2001).]

Interesting and timely post.<P>I am actually having dinner with a friend on Saturday and we are suppose to share lists of the most important items needed for a good relationship. I will sound so well versed in this area after reading through all of these posts. I think I might just steal Bernzini's list because it does say it all and so well.<P>I know next time around I want to find someone I am not dependent on and vice versa. I want both of us to be able to stand on our own two feet but not be independent either. I want us to be interdependent. I want us to be separate individuals that reinforce each other. I plan to be more assertive in my next relationship and make sure that I stay within the boundaries I know are right for me at this time. <P>I also found this discussion on sex very interesting. This is something I have been thinking about as well. My minister had a very thought provoking sermon on this topic right before my breakup with my bf. Now, I am rethinking what I will do next time around. If I can keep sex out of my next relationship, I think there is a better chance of long term success and finding out who likes me just for me and not just for sex. But, I'm not sure if I will be able to stand by this in practice. I have failed before in this area.

711,<P>I know what you mean about resisting temptation. Before you consider dating again, perhaps you need to really get clear about your views on pre-marital sex. <P>I don't think I was totally sold on it at first. There was that other part of me (the one who places sexual fulfillment high on the list) who wanted to take the short cut. There were many, many lonely nights I struggled with that feeling. I'd keep going back to the memories of me and my ex, and those intimate memories were never about the "act" itself. That is what finally sold me. <P>Now I just make sure that I don't get into situations where resisting temptation would be difficult. It is very good practice for me in other ways, considering my past behavior. <P>I hope this helps. I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other. It has brought me a great deal of peace though.

I have found now, after some time, that I no longer really struggle with the temptation because I don't put myself into situations were I would be tempted. Actually, to be more acurate--I don't have time to worry about scoring some!!! I am too busy with my job and my family. <P>I suppose that would be the key, right there. It takes two to tango, right? So wouldn't it make sense to associate with those that you know would respect your promise to yourself? (In regards to dating.) <P>I realize there are a lot of people who would feel bad for me! because I am missing out on something. I don't feel that way at all. I feel that I am saving up for something and that the wait will be more than worth it.<P>Why am I choosing to make this promise to myself? Well, primarily, my Christian beliefs have a whole lot to do with it. But, my faith is not blind, believe me. I have lived a while and a whole lot of my living has been by trial and error--testing what I called my convictions to sad consequences. So I have been no angel (well, almost an angel ) myself. Now I see, after my life of crime, why we have been given laws and commandments (By God, by Christ) regarding sex and excercising the gift and provilidge of the power of procreation. It is an awesome endowment--one that is beyond any other that we have save for the gift of our bodies in and of themselves. How can we mess with that, how can we take this power lightly?<P>Also, for the reason of intimacy with a person that I love. . .like GDP said so well, intimacy has been very much disregarded and "gettin it on and gettin some" has seemed to become the focal point of sexuality. Pleasure, I guess you would call it. Pleasure is such a small priority compared to sharing such a fantastic and important part of yourself with another person--someone that you vow to stand by forever and they you.<P>It is so easy to confuse intimacy with sexuality--very very easy. (I know my husband did. In seeking for the Holy Grail of intimacy with another person, it sex that was the primary focus. That's how he got so wrapped up in porn and that kind of thing.)<P>And what about the fact that, if you just go right into a sexual relationship with someone without that promise, you may very well not get to know much more about them? That's a scary thought. The power of sexuality may override most anything else in a relationship, and since you have shared that bond, you feel obligated and "stuck" with someone that you hardly know and maybe don't even like (this was my first marriage--I married him because he was my "first." And I was a naive youngster.) <P>I think that this is why so many marriages fail and the wayward spouse ends up saying "I don't think that I ever loved you in the first place." It's because two people have bonded sexually, wrapped in the intimacy that they have shared, when all along, these people were indeed incompatible. They have just headed far down that road in marriage before they realized that they married for the wrong reasons. This is so sad. (But, take this with a grain of salt--I think that even "incompatible people" may learn to be compatible if they want to.)<P>You can share your body with someone, and disregardless of whether it's "consentual between two adults," they may casually use you for what you can give for the moment and then leave you and we all know that hurts like heck. They may take so carelessly what you give them when in fact it is the most sacred thing that you could share with them--your body. Even if it is "consentual" at the time. It seems like someone always comes off hurt and lacking respect for themselves and the other person.<P>I also find myself very scarred by what my husband has done, I have to admit that is one of the more negative reasons that I have chosen this lifestyle. Very scarred. After 7 years with this man, to know that I was just another piece of booty to him (I know that's not accurate, but that's the way I still feel) hurts like crazy. I know that most people will tell you that you heal foremost from the sexual betrayal before you heal from the disrespect and dishonesty in an infidelity. For some reason, I very much feel the opposite, don't ask me why. (Maybe because in my first marriage, I had an emotional attachment with a man outside the marriage, but no sexual attachment. So I can easily understand how this can happen. But I can't relate to the sexual betrayal.)<P>TS, in a very well-written post a couple of months ago, laid out some very good arguements for celibacy between marriages. Or period, I guess. It was a very good post and I wish that I had copied it. She and I share a lot of the same thoughts in that aspect, so I very much appreciated that.<P>So, in the meantime, I am not having it rough sticking to my vows to myself because I know that it will be rewarding in the long run. Perseverance, I guess.<P>And also--I keep in the back of my mind that if my spouse were to ever return to me (snort!) that the door would be wide open to invite him in that I have proved my faithfulness to him. Even if I do date in that time--it would be easy to return to him knowing that I have left no one behind that I have bonded with sexually.<P>And--if he doesn't--like I said, I will prove my love for a future partner even before I know him by my faithfulness.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited January 12, 2001).]

Bernzini,<P>At first, I had to struggle with the idea that men mainly wanted me for sex. I felt like I was just another peice of booty to my ex as well. To give up something that I felt at the time was the PRIMARY reason for my attractiveness to another man was pretty tough. It didn't take that long to realize that this was the source of many of my problems with the men in my life. Once and for all I was going to prove to myself that I could be loved for me, and not just my body.<P>And the only way to know that for sure is to wait for a life-time commitment. Everything else is just lip service. <P>I'm too busy to be tempted as well. The fact that I don't even care about being tempted is even better. I'm not a Christian, but have learned mostly the hard way. Growing up, the lessons about sex and responsibility seemed to be there to ruin my fun, so I rebelled against them. There was lots of talk about how it's a sin, that it is wrong, just say no, but not a whole lot of indepth discussion about WHY those "rules" were made. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>I'd keep going back to the memories of me and my ex, and those intimate memories were never about the "act" itself. That is what finally sold me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Exactly!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Growing up, the lessons about sex and responsibility seemed to be there to ruin my fun, so I rebelled against them. There was lots of talk about how it's a sin, that it is wrong, just say no, but not a whole lot of indepth discussion about WHY those "rules" were made.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, it seems to me that people would be a lot more inclined to follow the rules if they understood the reasons for them.<P>For an interesting Christian perspective on this, see Cornelius Plantinga's <A HREF="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9410/articles/plant.html" TARGET=_blank>The Sinner and the Fool</A>. Plantinga argues that "biblical writers think of sin as the main species of folly."<BR>

Well, I haven't been able to post for awhile and just wanted to thank Bernzini, GPD and The Student for your comments here. What you have all said makes so much sense to me right how. I liked what TS said about rebelling against the rules when you were younger, because you didn't understand why the rules were there in the first place. But, now I am starting to see the "Why" as well. <P>Now, I just need to be assertive enough to keep to the new boundaries I am setting for myself or keep myself out of situations where the temptation would be too great for me.<P>So, I would add to my list of qualities in a relationship, that the next man I meet must respect the boundaries I have set for myself and vice versa.<P>Thanks again.

GDP,<P>VERY interesting article.

GDP--yes, I liked this too. It was very thought-provoking. In fact, I will have to go back over it to look again.<P>I have often thought, after beating on myself about things that I have done in the past "I did wrong, very wrong--but I didn't KNOW then. Well, yes, I was told that it would be wrong--but *I* didn't know for myself."<P>Just as one needs a personal testimony of good things, I guess often one needs a personal testimony, so to speak, of the bad.<BR>And then move on in life with new wisdom. As long as one accepts responsibility for the wrong that he has done, that is.

I will ditto all the traits mentioned...Then add this...<P>Practice the MB principles!! The POJA and the 4 rules for a successful marriage...<P>Bill