Based on conversations on various threads, I thought I'd just see how everyone stacks up on this issue.<P>As a dumpee and BS (his A in year 10 of 15 year marriage), I firmly believe that my stbx's dating during our current separation (2 weeks after moving out he was seen "making out" with OW)was tantamount to cheating on me...we were (and still are for 5 more weeks) married. Yet he now has a full-fledged relationship going. Nurse Ratchet will, to me, forever be the OW that ended our marriage, because once involved with her, all effort at reconciliation stopped on his part.<P>Is it only dumpees that feel that dating during separation is wrong?<P>My stbx's excuse was that our marriage was over in everyway except the paperwork...why wait? I wasn't supposed to take it personally... <P>Do most dumpers feel that way? Even MB dumpers who just "had enough" and had to end their efforts for their own sanity?<P>I guess I'm just wondering if I have some old-fashioned, out-of-kilter belief system about when a marriage is considered "over" by most people - at the time of divorce? or sometime during the separation when all hope gets lost? Maybe my stbx's behavior isn't cheating in most people's book??? Still feels like it to me, but I lack perspective here.<P>Roll call...<P>------------------<BR>---------<BR>To err is human, to forgive divine.<p>[This message has been edited by soon2b_alone (edited January 10, 2001).]

I've decided not to become involved with anyone until my wifes divorce is final. Not srictly for moral reasons, but I did vow to remain faithful to her. I suspect she is involved with someone else, and I do consider it infidelity on her part. <P>I'm not even sure if I'll be ready once the divorce is final, as I have a lot of healing and learning and growing to do <P>I would never impose my morals or beliefs on anyone else. I'm sure there are those who feel the need for companionship so strongly that they will become involved with someone while they are still technically/legally married. I don't think this is necessarily wrong, It's just not what I feel is the correct course for me right now. Of course that could all change if Ms. Right (as opposed to Ms. right now) crossed my path <P>Take care...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

I was the dumpee. My XW (not to my knowledge involved elsewhere, and simply having lost admiration, respect, etc. for me) expressed a desire *not* to attempt to work on the marriage and an inexorable will to divorce. In my anger and pain, as soon as the house was sold and we were apart (about 1 mo. before divorce was final) I started dating again. <P>That first relationship didn't work. The second *is* fantastic. BUT ... XW showed up back in town (she had been in europe), and I'm having to admit that I went too fast. I'm left with questions (actually, a lot more than questions); and the XW, who knows?<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 10, 2001).]

My divorce is finale and I have yet to date! I think I would if I met someone who made the blood flow so to speak, but I am pretty darn picky.<P>Bottom line is I don't want to hurt some else just to meet my needs!

Just wanted to add one point: <BR>To the dumpee, the "dumping process" is sudden, often unexpected. So we need time to process our emotions and feelings. Thinking about dating again is something that we usually can't handle, nor want to handle - since we still hope for the marriage.<P>But...<P>For the dumper, we need to realize that they have already made up their minds what they think the best course of action is. They probably have been debating their decision for weeks/months/years before they came to us and said "its over". So for them, when they leave the relationship and separate, dating is not such a big deal because they already view the marriage as irreconcilable.<P>And since they have chosen to leave the marriage, their view on commitment is easily seen for its true nature. Especially if they leave on short notice, without any attempt to "try again" to make things work. The vows they made at the alter are probably just "words" to them devoid of any meaning.<P>Mike

I can answer this question in just a few words. I am a dumpee, my stbxH had an A and is still with the OW, so I would say that he felt it was appropriate to date while we were still married. <P>I have not gone out on a date yet, because there is no dry ink on the divorce papers; however, I have just started to actually think about the possibility. As a matter of fact, it has been during the last two months that I suddenly realized there are men out there! <P>There is someone I really care about and I'm starting to have feelings for, but I am going to go slow. It's kinda wierd territory.<P>CJ<P>p.s. Mike, that sounds kind of familiar. Did someone wise and wonderful tell you that one? <BR> <P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited January 10, 2001).]

As the Dumper...I take slight offense by SoTired2000's sweeping statement about the Dumper's lack of committment. You cannot measure everyperson's level of committment and reason for dumping using your own situation as the yardstick.<P>It amazes me how everyone who is dumped claims they never saw it coming. Perhaps they didn't...but I can't believe all of us Dumpers are all experts at hiding our true emotions and never opening our mouth's when we aren't happy. I think people have a tendency to justify their behavior as well as their spouse to suite themselves...especially if it isn't what you want it to be. <P>As the Dumper...I was committed to my marriage even when things were horrible. I wanted it to work. But one cannot do that by themselves. Eventually, I reached a point where I couldn't do it anymore. My spouse claims just like everyone else, he never saw it comming. Yet...he does recall me telling him that I was lonely...that I was unhappy...he wrote it off as the wife being a nag. <P>I also taken offense that somehow as the Dumper we are seen as carefree and ready to date and have a glorious time. Get real. I was married 16 years. This has been the worst ordeal of my life. My marriage failed. I never wanted that. But emotional and verbal abuse aren't too great either. Don't kid yourself into thinking all Dumpers are mean spirtited adulterers who don't know the meaning of committment. Let us remember the other vow we say besides forsaking all others. Oh, and not all of us are adulterers either.<P>So, would I date...did I date? Yes...I went out a few times with someone who is also going through this ugly mess of divorce...and he is the Dumpee. How soon? Six months after separation...but three months after the divorce was filed. In my state divorce takes forever...it has been a year and it still isn't final. Was I nervous? You bet. I have only seen one person and though that relationship isn't any longer...too many issues, I am in no hurry to test the waters again.<BR> [<BR>

SoTired-good point. That advanced preparation doesn't make them any more ready to date, however, although they believe it does or they wouldn't do it. I thought that if I was capable of feeling something (attraction, interest, emotion) for someone else that I was ready to date. (Some people cannot even look at another person for a long time.) I was wrong.<P>(I was the dumpee.)

I guess my issue is really with the dating process during *separation* though. Not with those who wait until the divorce is final but date soon after. Everyone, even some adulterers, claim to be respectful of the marriage vows. But then, once separated, many people date and even get into new relationships/living together, etc.even though THEY ARE STILL MARRIED.<P>In my view...you're married until you are NOT. You are not free legally, technically, or any other hair-splitting-word way until the ink is dry on your divorce certificate. I feel very out of tune (don't kill me those who did this please ) with that attitude myself and feel that it is done by justification/rationalization/avoidance of being alone than for positive purposes of finding onesself a new suitable partner (which is what dating when your really available is about).<P>Maybe the problem is with the "waiting period" - the courts and society seemed to have declared this separation time as *sort of married/sort of not,* which sets all sorts of grey areas in motion in many people's values.<P>I also don't understand people who would willingly/knowingly date someone in the middle of a divorce. They risk two things - losing that person to a reconciliation...and dealing with a person who is an emotional wreck or who hasn't figured out their independent identity from their ex-spouse yet. The former is an obvious danger...the latter means that person may jump right back into relationship behavior patterns that just ended their previous marriage because they didn't take the time to really figure out what went wrong. I see results of this already with my stbx. He is an absolute a** to everyone within glaring distance whenever his gf (whom he's had 4.5 of the 5 months we've been separated)does a behavior similar to one he resented in me - the jokes on him...she's very much like me, but I digress...his anger is really baggage from our relationship...but he can't see it and hasn't dealt with it because he's consumed with the idea that this relationship is *new.* I've come to the conclusion that his new relationship is really the same old relationship he had with me, but just with Nurse Ratchet's face on it. Doomed to failure...I hope. <P>Lisa<P>[This message has been edited by soon2b_alone (edited January 10, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by soon2b_alone (edited January 10, 2001).]

There is a fundemental difference between dating and involving yourself in a serious relationship. I don't think there is anything horrible about enjoying the company of someone from the opposite sex. What is dating? Most of us think of it along the same terms as we did when we were single and doing it regularly. Dating does not equal relationship. Do people in their 30's and 40's date? Somehow I think the age factor gives the whole concept a new demension. <P>I have read other threads on this board on dating...somehow it always comes down to sex. The two are not the same. One does not need to go out on a date to have sex and if you go out on a date you don't necessarily have sex. So perhaps we should clear up what exactly it is we are talking about. Going to lunch with someone while you are separated....waiting for the divorce is not a giant sized sin in my book. We are not all 15 with raging harmones.<P>As I mentioned, my stbx tells me regularly he can't wait to get married again...and he was the dumpee. I certainly am not scanning the masses for a new husband. It would be nice to have someone to go to dinner with once in awhile, but so far I've been a little occupied.<P>[<BR>

Interesting question. I cheated on my ex (very brief affair-less than two weeks) and confessed voluntarily about 6 months after that. The OM had been out of the picture for a long time. I sincerely wanted to heal our marriage and find out what was wrong with me that I could do something like that. My (now ex) took his ring off the next day, moved out within two weeks, and was off on a week long vacation with a woman he used to work with less than a month after my confession. <P>This was after I asked him specifically if he was "dating" and he lied. Apparently things weren't so wonderful on the vacation for whatever reason. He did date on and off just about the whole time we were supposedly trying to reconcile. He claims he didn't have sex with anyone else, but that is pretty irrelevant and also pretty impossible to prove one way or the other.<P>I did not date at all during our separation. I found it to be very hypocritical of him to claim fidelity, yet date during that time. I still do. When anyone (betrayer or betrayed) dates before a divorce without the express consent of the other spouse, it is considered cheating in my book. Even with the express consent of the other spouse(like in the case of so-called open marriages) it appears pretty distasteful and dishonest. <P>In my heart-of-hearts, I sincerely hope he started dating soon after our divorce. I know his odds of success are not the best in those circumstances. Someone here quoted 85% divorce statistics for all of those re-married within two years after a divorce. The divorce rate for all remarriages aren't a whole lot better...about 75%.<P>oh. I consider myself to be a dumpee, although some might disagree with that because I cheated "first". I didn't initiate the divorce paperwork and was against divorce throughout our separation. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited January 10, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>There is a fundemental difference between dating and involving yourself in a serious relationship. <BR>[</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>It seems to me that the path to a serious relationship first starts with that "innocent" dinner. It did with my stbx - they talked, compared notes that they were both separated (and he knew her hubby from high school) and had dinner conversation...wham,bam,thankyoumam, they're in a relationship and I'm still trying to figure out how many of *our* towels he will need to get through this temporary bump in our marriage.<P>It was a cruel slap in the face to be "replaced" so quickly after 15 years of marriage especially when we hadn't even filed or filled out a single piece of paper at that time.<P>arghhh <BR>

soon2_b_alone,<P>see, that's the problem. That is how affairs start too. The "innocent" outings can lead to more, even if the intentions are good in the beginning.<P>Even though I'm divorced now, I won't even date until or unless I decide I want to remarry. Even then, I would not date anyone who wasn't actively looking for a life-time commitment and had some serious distance between their divorce and their decision to remarry. On another thread, RWD mentioned a website that talks about "courtship dating" and why one should not consider dating someone they couldn't potentially marry. His thread was called something like "dating for Christians". I'm not a Christian, and not even particularly religious, but it made a whole lot of sense to me. Human nature is fallible. There is just no reason to let "nature" (i.e. our biology) make our decisions for us.

lonely soul has some good points, although i knew my W was unhappy, she complained and projected everything on me. When she did word it correctly, I felt a great need to hug her, hold her, etc. but she wouldn't let me after she said it correctly. its called disrespectful judgements.<P>But even as recently as last night, she still relates weirdly, boundaries are not set by stating feelings or personal desires, such as i don't appreciate the way you talk to me, or I would appreciate to be asked, but by wanting to establish rules in the divorce decree. She has yet to be in touch with her feelings to communicate them to me.<P>Doesn't give me an excuse, but its hard to take blame for something I don't know why. And to take the brunt of all her frustration and anger, and its not just now, its been that way whenever she got scared, afraid, mad, etc.<P>However, dating by going out and having fun with the opposite sex, by all means, do so.<P>Dating with the intention of having sex, well, that's a debatable topic.<P>However, my take on the next relationship is not whether the paperwork is approved or even completed, but how much have you healed, have you taken responsibility for your part of the marriage and accepted it. Have you fixed yourself to become the best person you can be?<P>If you have done your own work, and feel that there is very little more you can do, then it is OK, in my opinion to seriously date.<P>but that depends upon the individual, one's own coping mechanisms, and the inate ability to move on in a healthy manner.<P>good luck everybody!<P>tom

I am sorry, but I don't buy that every encounter with the opposite sex leads to a potential affair. I am a professional...I have lots of lunches with men. There was nothing going on but business. I have male friends...we aren't fooling around. Yes, dating can lead to a relationship, but I don't think you need to lock yourself away and clasp on the chasity belt every time you talk to someone of the opposite sex. <P>People make mistakes and will continue to do so. You can't judge others by what is right for you. Yes it hurts if your H or W has left you and seems fabulously happy dating. But don't forget don't judge a book by its cover. Ofter times there are underlying issues taking place. What seems often isn't.<P>If a divorce is pending and two people want to go out to a movie or have a drink, I really can't see what is wrong with that. I'm not talking a romantic weekend to Aruba...I'm talking a few hours of companionship.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000: For the dumper, we need to realize that they have already made up their minds what they think the best course of action is. They probably have been debating their decision for weeks/months/years before they came to us and said "its over". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think this is a very valid point. I understand that not all "dumpers" have walked away without warning, but some have. In my case, my ex admitted that she had made up her mind that she wanted a divorce before she ever spoke of her unhappiness and by then it was too late for her.<P>Anyway, back to the topic at hand.....I did not date at all during my separation because it was not something I felt comfortable doing. Until the moment the divorce became final, I was a married man and that's how I conducted myself. I got out, met some new people and even flirted a bit, but never did anything to betray my vows.<P>I think the situation is different for every person and for every relationship. I have known several separated people who dated during their divorces and I thought that was ok as long as they were ok with their decision.<P>I can also say with a subtle amount of certainty that dating directly after a divorce can be a hard thing to handle if you are not emotionally ready to take on the feelings of another individual. It tends to be a very shaky experience at best.<P>------------------<BR>“What does not kill me only makes me stronger”<BR> -F. Neitzsche

Lonely,<P>I could probably deal with your definition of dating if my stbx had waited any reasonable (2-3 months or so)length of time, filed paperwork to begin the official end of our marriage and then lightly dated various people. I would not take that as "cheating" nor as a personal affront to the last 15 years of my life.<P>BUT, he took two weeks. Two weeks from announcing he wanted out to being heavily involved. Insulting, humiliating, degrading...ugh

I don't know. Maybe I'm just a big believer in being able to delay gratification. Seems to me that if someone adimately (sp?) refuses to delay their dating gratification until after their divorce, then there isn't much reason for me to believe they would delay gratification after they were with me.<P>People have an amazing ability to rationalize their behavior if they are lonely enough. If people are lonely enough, they can very easily talk themselves into believing they are "healed" because they can't bear to wait. I've gotten pretty fired up about this topic in the past, but I've decided not to in the future. I can't change the world, that's for sure. Oh, well. It was worth a shot. <P>To me, the timetable for real healing is like planning any budget or schedule. Estimate the amount of time or money you THINK it will take, then double it. Seems to work for just about everything else in life.

Good Q.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>However, my take on the next relationship is not whether the paperwork is approved or even completed, but how much have you healed, have you taken responsibility for your part of the marriage and accepted it. Have you fixed yourself to become the best person you can be?<P>If you have done your own work, and feel that there is very little more you can do, then it is OK, in my opinion to seriously date.<P>but that depends upon the individual, one's own coping mechanisms, and the inate ability to move on in a healthy manner.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tom.......way to go,I couldn't have said that any better.I agree w/you!<P>TS,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> People have an amazing ability to rationalize their behavior if they are lonely enough. If people are lonely enough, they can very easily talk themselves into believing they are "healed" because they can't bear to wait.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree also w/your statement.I have no doubt that could happen.<P>But what about when the person isn't lonely at all.Has their own life,and even enjoys the nights when the house is dark and quite watching their favorite movie.Or working on a hobby of theirs.<P>They do enjoy talking or seeing the special person,but there isn't that "DESIRE","DESPERATION or "HAVE to be w/that person 24/7".Is that still someone that isn't "healed"????<P>Gina <P><BR>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----<P>[This message has been edited by LittleCookie (edited January 10, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by LittleCookie (edited January 10, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by LittleCookie (edited January 10, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by LittleCookie (edited January 10, 2001).]

Well, I am the dumper..and I "date." <BR>I'm not looking for a sexual partner, <BR>I just like to go out have dinner, go to a<BR>movie, and talk..heck even meeting for coffee<BR>is fun..I went back to school met some new people, would go out w/ them..not just men..<BR>but women also..(you can also make a "date"<BR>with your girl/guy friends) to me a date is something you make plans to do with another person be it male or female..or even making plans to take your children out..you pick a day you want to go, and you plan for it..and it's considered a "date."<P>When I go out w/ my guy friends I don't expect them to pick up the tab even if they <BR>asked me to go..because I look at it as two friends getting together to do something fun..maybe I'm in the wrong here...but thats how I see it..<P>Even if your married and you go out to lunch<BR>w/ business associates..you call and make the plans to go out it's still considered a "date" in my book..maybe not the "romantic"<BR>sexual kind..but it's still a date..<P>and not everyone who is the dumper..is ready to go out and jump into the next bed thats offered them..and it's not always because of the vows..it's also about self-respect..