I am both betrayer and betrayed... (I consider myself to be the dumpee)<P><B>I</B> have been seperated for a little over a year and have not thought about dating. Mainly because <B>I</B> am still a married woman. Secondly, because <B>I</B> believe that one on one dating with the opposite sex while seperated constitutes as an emotional affair. Thirdly because <B>I</B> believe its a disrespect to the covenant <B>I</B> made not just to my H, but to God. And finally <B>I</B> believe that <B>I</B> need not jump into anything that remotely has the potential of becoming "more than" what maybe was intended. <P>I don't deny having males as friends by no means, dammit I'm a cop so men are who I'm around all day. But one on one dating for me is a big no no. However, I will go out with a group of people. <P>And by no means (not saying that anyone here does this) will I let my kids see me going out on any one on one activity, because I believe it sends the wrong message. <P>Just my opinion....<P>------------------<BR><B>God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com<p>[This message has been edited by jamie-lee (edited January 10, 2001).]

Jamie-Lee,<P>check out RWD's site on dating for christians. There is a link there for courtship dating that I think you will find very interesting.<P>Gina, WIFTT,<BR>I think there is another reason (for me) why I think dating before a divorce is final is not the best idea. <P>If you have healed in alot of ways before the divorce is final, that is great. Still, don't you worry (just a little) what impression you are sending and what kind of people you will attract if you hold to this view? When people defend their right to date before a divorce because they are not "emotionally" married anymore, all *I* hear is every rationalization an unremorseful adulterer has ever said. <P>Not only that, I'd be concerned about attracting others who also have little respect for marital vows. What is the purpose of saying those vows anyway? What is the purpose of saying them in the future if you don't intend on holding them unless it is convenient? Honest. I'm not trying to slam you. If you feel at peace with the world (no matter when that time is), then I'm very happy for you. <P>Maybe this conversation is irrelevent. Both of you have to decide what is best for you and your life. Personally, I would consider someone who dated before a divorce was final as being an adulterer unless they had express consent from their spouse. And I'd be pretty suspicious if they told me they had consent. I'd be even more suspicious if they tried to defend their right to date. I'm sure my ex is telling people he was faithful (like Clinton was faithful), but he really wasn't. <P>I guess what it comes down to, is would you date and/or form a relationship with someone who was not divorced yet? If you can say yes to that question, then I will leave you alone <BR>

Lonely, I think you make some valid points. Not all dumpers cheated, for sure. But most of us here had to deal with that. My timetable goes like this. I was married for 15 years. Ex-H went out of town on business for 4 months. Before he left we were holding hands, having fun, making love, etc. No talk about being unhappy. 4 months later he came home as a man I no longer knew. It took 2 days for me to discover he's having an affair. For the next 7 months, he pretended to end the affair and went to counseling with me. I then discover he'd been seeing this "ho" all along. He moved out. We were separated 2 months when the OW moved in with him. 5 months after that we were divorced. 3 months after the divorce he married the OW. They started out as "just friends" with no sex involved. These casual dating relationships are dangerous at times. My personal belief is that as long as you are legally married, you should refrain from dating in any way. I find it distasteful. But many dumpers feel it unnecessary to wait. While many dumpees think it's best to wait. I think this says something about the mindset of the persons involved. They are coming from different points of view. I never knew my marriage was in trouble. So for me, the affair and subsequent separation and shacking up were a huge shock for me. It has shaken my very soul. I have now been divorced for almost 5 months, and I still haven't dated. I haven't dated (other than my ex-H while we were married) in over 16 years. And I don't plan to anytime soon, either. I agree with soon2b_alone, it's insulting to be replaced so easily and quickly after devoting your life to this person. Maybe for you, it has worked out fine, but overall, I think it's a dangerous business to be dating EVER while you are still married.<P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

I was one who dated before my divorce was final. I was gently warned by people here that it was not wise. What started out as a set up with a friend's divorced brother mushroomed into a "talk every day on the phone/go out three-four days a week/spend the night thing." It is not something I am proud of in hindsight. If he had not put the breaks on (for many of the logical reasons stated above--again, he was recently divorced too), it probably would have continued a bit longer. Our first date was simply done to get out of the house. Who knew where it would land? Do you know when I started dating? My time line makes me lose respect for me:<P>8/22 H says he wants reconciliation<BR>9/22 H says he wants divorce<BR>10/11 H and I have discussion where I accept his decision, yet cry uncontrollably<BR>10/13 First date with new guy<BR>10/15 Second date with new guy<BR>10/17 Third date with new guy<BR>10/18 Papers are filed<BR>10/20 Fourth date with new guy<P>See where this is going??<P>Yes, I rationalized the entire thing: my marriage was over, my husband was no longer in limbo about his decision as he was before, he was moving out of state. Did I jeapordize reconciliation? I hesitate to ask that question. I will never know for sure. <P>As someone who has been there, I feel that it is definitely a bad idea, though it let me see how easily someone who is vulnerable and lonely can latch on to someone else and think that it makes sense. I have some compassion (and pity) for my ex because of this. As usual, WIFFT has a good point:<P>"However, my take on the next relationship is not whether the paperwork is approved or<BR>even completed, but how much have you healed, have you taken responsibility for your<BR>part of the marriage and accepted it. Have you fixed yourself to become the best person<BR>you can be?"<P>

ya know, people make "rules" not to ruin other people's fun. Mostly rules are made to help make people's intentions perfectly clear. Not only to outside people but to themselves as well. <P>There are many differing opinions about what exactly constitutes the "end" of a marriage. We could argue all day about what is morally right and wrong and it doesn't really matter. I can't read someone's mind. I can't judge how well they have "healed" from a divorce. All I can see is their actions. If they show me with their actions that they have little or no regard for the rules (ie vows) that THEY agreed to, I can only conclude the following:<P>a) they are confused. Not a good risk.<P>b) their adherence to rules are completely subjective and likely to change upon their next whim. Also, not someone I care to invest in.<P>This applies not only to the biggies, like marriage vows, but just about anything someone promises to do. Its hard for me to justify spending my time with people who make promises, then make excuses and rationalizations about why breaking them is A-OK. <P>I know alot of people here have told me that I'm against taking risks, and that is partly true. I'm against taking STUPID risks, that is for darn sure. If I were going to jump out of an airplane, I'd double check that parachute and double check the back-up chute as well. If the pilot said "I don't drink", and he's got alcohol on his breath, I'd think twice about going up in an airplane with him no matter what he said. When people are inconsistent in their words and actions, that makes them a bad risk. It is very simple. It doesn't matter to me how healed they say they are. <P>

Well my divorce has been final now for almost two months and I was separated 5 months prior to that and I still feel like a married man in many regards. Cutting off all feelings and emotions for a person that was such a big part of my life for many years is not like flipping a switch. Even though it is perfectly normal and permissible to start dating at anytime now, it still just feels a bit awkward.<P>I have had the opportunity to go out on a few dates recently and they have resulted in the onset of many new emotions. Surprisingly enough, guilt has not been one of them, but the recent involvement has confused me nonetheless.<P>I think TS is correct in saying that <B>people make "rules" not to ruin other people's fun. Mostly rules are made to help make people's intentions perfectly clear. Not only to outside people but to themselves as well.</B> I have a set of rules myself and they fit this scenario perfectly. <P>A very important thing us recent divorcees need to keep in mind is the feelings of our respective dates during our time of healing and to start things off as open and honest as possible. From experience, this is an area that I have not done that well in and now I have found it a very difficult one to approach. At what point does stating your intentions in regard to another person become passé?<P><BR>gsd: I wanted you to know that you shouldn’t necessarily lose respect for yourself based on your timeline of events. True you went out on a few dates early in your separation, but you also found a bit of comfort in spending time with a great guy. You were having some your needs met during these outings which were not being met anyplace else, especially not your WS. I remember your posts during this time and you seemed to be enjoying the company of this other person. Even if it was short-lived, this experience helped you through a rough time. If you had to do all over again I’m sure you might do it differently, I think we all would, but I wouldn’t judge your actions. It’s all just part of the process.<BR>

I got "set up" with someone--the brother of a co-worker. I am not divorced yet. My husband doesn't live in this country and I haven't seen him for a year. I intend to remain loyal to my marriage vows--for whatever it's worth. I was dumpee, technically, because my husband found a girlfriend, but I was the one who left the country where he lives. <P>But my co-worker told me that I need to get out and make some friends, that I would go crazy if I got too lonely. Which I agree with--the only people I see routinely are at work and at church, and my parents. So he asked if I would like to hang out with his brother.<P>I agreed to meet this person because I am fairly new in town (I grew up here, but I don't really know anyone here now) and I needed a friend, a contact, someone to hang out with. It was just an agreement off the top of my head--I didn't want or expect it to turn into anything because I was not seeking a "relationship." I don't want a relationship. I definately don't want sex. I don't even want to see anyone as a "potential" at present. I just wanted a friend, male, female, someone to talk to.<P>Well, I met this person and he likes me. A lot. He's a nice guy. He's not someone I would probably get with as a partner even if I were seriously looking, but he is a cool friend. Isn't there a difference? He calls all the time. He comes over to my house every weekend. He wants me for a girlfriend. I have done nothing to lead him to believe that I want to be romantically involved with him in any way, but still, I would like the friendship, because he IS a nice person. I adore his kids.<P>So, oh-oh. I goofed. I am trying carefully and tactfully to convince him that there is a difference between just friends/potential partners. It's as hard to do that now as it was in highschool.<P>I feel really guilt-ridden that I agreed to meet this person now. I invited him to come to church with me as a "date" just to say we had a date. I feel stupid now.<P>I have to get this off my chest, it's dumb, but I can't lie about anything. <P>

Jayhawk-<BR>Thanks for your post. Though I normally do not agree with everything that the Student writes, I think she has a good point about the rationalization thing. I thought my H was the only one who did that. I suppose I did do a lot of that myself. I hesitate to think that he (the new guy) was just filling some hole because that implies that I was using him (even innocently). That makes me realize that the same could have been true for him. Yes, I really did enjoy his company. And I truly miss it. He is a really good person. And under other circumstances,I think we could have been good together. That is what made me so insistent that I not stop the relationship: what could be. I thought he was perfect for me. There's that ridiculous desperation again. And what really ticks me off is the fact that I have NEVER been one to be insecure or desperate. It sucks how this all has made me feel.

gsd,<P>When I had my affair, I was all alone here in Atlanta. I had no friends, no family. The OM was someone I studied with. When feelings started to develop, I was so afraid of failing the class we were in together, that I stayed around him. I sold my soul for an A in that class, and I'll never forget that. He started out as a friend too. The day "it" happened was the day I went to his apt. to tell him we couldn't be friends anymore. Good intentions gone awry. I've worked and studied with men all of my adult life and nothing bad ever happened. That was my rationalization. Even the strongest of people have their vulnerable moments.<P>Now, I have to work around him. He and I have the same boss. He is a very smart guy. We might have been friends under different circumstances, and he certainly would have been a good business contact. But since we screwed things up, we never talk or even make eye contact. What a waste.<P>You mentioned something in an earlier post. You said that you have sympathy (and pity) for your ex now that you've experienced how easy it is to become attached to someone when you are vulnerable. I'm very glad you've made that connection. After my ex went on his "vacation" with an OW, he didn't make the connection you did. He told me "I needed a friend". I said "So did I". You see, we all really are not all that different in alot of ways. We all need love, attention, and affection. The fact that you can see through your rationalizations (unlike your ex) will serve you very well in the future.

TS,<P>Sorry about taking so long to get back. Been a little busy.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Still, don't you worry (just a little) what impression you are sending and what kind of people you will attract if you hold to this view? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok......first,no.....I don't really care what other people might think of me,or the impression I am sending.I am the only one that matters how I feel about my life and the way I live it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When people defend their right to date before a divorce because they are not "emotionally" married anymore, all *I* hear is every rationalization an unremorseful adulterer has ever said.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah,I can see that,and would agree.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Not only that, I'd be concerned about attracting others who also have little respect for marital vows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ya know what? That is the beauty of going out and meeting people and or dating.If you find that you are attracting others that have this aspect concerning the marital vows,then hey,don't go out w/them! Pretty simple.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What is the purpose of saying those vows anyway? What is the purpose of saying them in the future if you don't intend on holding them unless it is convenient? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your right........once again I agree w/you. <P>My X left me......he is the one that didn't take our vows seriously and didn't want to try.He made the choice of leaving me,instead of "For better or for worse".<P>You know he thinks that "Love" is a ooey-gooey feeling,you have to have passion for that person or you are just "going through the motions of an unhappy M". I say Bull-****! It really is a bunch of crap.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Honest. I'm not trying to slam you.<BR>If you feel at peace with the world (no matter when that time is), then I'm very happy for you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh,TS,I know that you are not.I have always admired your values/morals,and all that you believe in. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Personally, I would consider someone who dated before a divorce was final as being an adulterer unless they had express consent from their spouse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know it is kinda funny that you say that,only bc at one point in time [when I was still in the hopes of my x returning]I did believe exactly the same thing! <P>It is all when you can't fight any more,be a door-mat any longer and know that your life is on hold in the hopes of the sp coming to their sences.At some point in time you have to take charge of your life and do what is best for your own self perservation and for your children, if any.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess what it comes down to, is would you date and/or form a relationship with someone who was not divorced yet? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok.....my first gut answer is of course not.But then I change it to a yes.<P>TS,the one thing that I want to try for you to understand from where I am coming from,is the fact that not everything is "Black and White".[at least not in my world.]<P>I can't just say a yes or no to that Q.<BR>I would have to ask a lot of Q about that person to know the answer.<P>There are so many variables w/that Q.<P>I can say this.<P>If the person was let say just seperated,and probably still wanted a reconciliation w/their SP.........then of course I wouldn't want a "relationship" w/that person.<P>Now let's take someone that has been seperated for a while they both have signed the papers and is just waiting on some District Court Judge to say it is over,then I can answer yes,yes I would.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you can say yes to that question, then I will leave you alone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is ok,you don't have to leave me alone. <P>Your a great person to talk w/about such things!<P>Always good chatting w/you,take it easy.<P>Gina <P><P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----

Gina (aka littlecookie),<P>My ex dated while we were separated. I'm sure he told his dates he didn't want a reconcilation. Or maybe he told them he did after he dated them for awhile. My guess is that he jerked one or two women around during his confusion. I personally would say NO to dating someone whose divorce was not final. No matter how much they insist the marriage is over, in my view, it simply is not. I suppose it has more to do with my own values than relying on what state the other person claims to be in.<P>Now, take me. I've been divorced going on two years but I still don't feel like I've disconnected enough to honestly date another person. The fact that I'm legally divorced would make it OK in just about anyone's mind for me to date. However, I can't personally justify dating someone (and would consider ME to be a bad risk) until I've completely put my marriage behind me. On the other hand, putting my marriage behind me is not a goal I have. It may happen eventually without effort on my part, but I'm not forcing it, mostly because of my school. We'll see what happens after I graduate.

TS_<BR>Why is putting your marriage behind you not a priority because of school? <P>