All, I need some advice. For those of you who don't know my story. My husband came home from a business trip in Nov. and said he was leaving me and wanted a divorce. He said that he'd been unhappy for 2 years (our 4th anniversary was a week after he left). He refused to go to counseling with me and simply said that he didn't love me anymore, it was over. <P>Some days I think there is another women for a couple of reasons, he left his first wife in exactly this same way, because he was attracted to me, and also because he went on this trip with a female employee, and I had no idea he was unhappy for two years, it came completely out of the blue to me, so it seems there must be someone else since he had to get out so quickly, went to a hotel that very same day and we never lived together again. But he swore that there was not, and I have not asked him again since the very beginning. <P>Anyways, he filed for divorce right away, and we agree on the details, custody of our daughter, division of property, etc., but I still do not want the divorce, however it will all be over in a couple of months since we aren't fighting over details. The reasons he gave me for getting a divorce were that I was not emotionally there for him, at the end of the day, with work and our daughter, I never had time for him. He wants to find someone to love him and share life with and I'm not that person. <P>Now that it's been a couple of months of seperation, I can admit that I was sometimes preoccupied with work, housework, child, and I also realize that he was not very attentive to me and I was unhappy with that. I can see that we drifted apart. But these seem like such small things that can be easily fixed either through counseling or communication between the two of us, not large problems that we should get a divorce over, especially since we have a 3 year old daughter. <P>I have read about Plan A and plan B, however, since I do not know of an affair, and also since we have very little contact with each other, I can't really implement them. In the beginning I told him that I still loved him, that I really wanted to work on the relationship, and for him to please consider counseling with me, if not just for our daughter. But he said that no counselor was going to make him love me again, it was over. <P>Sometimes he would come to the house to pick up our daughter and we would argue, and he would say things like "I considered coming home, but when you fight with me, I just realize it would never work." So I know in the beginning, he at least considered it. Sometimes he calls me and we talk about our child, then the conversation turns to other things, and we get along really well on the phone, and I think, see there is still something there. Other times, he is very angry and blames me for him being broke because of maintaining two households, and problems with our child, and it's all my fault because I didn't pay attention to him, and he lies to me and yells at me, and he always makes a point to say things like "I don't spend anytime thinking about the relationship, I've been over it for a long time." <P>Originally he told me not to call him or e-mail him, to just give him his space, so I did. But now it seems like he calls me. When I asked him why, he said to discuss our daughter, but really I don't believe that, since we talk about many other things. Sometimes I do feel like he misses me and thats why he calls. But when we see each other in person, it seems like he has a hard time looking me in the eye, and friends have noticed that he was the same way with them, so once again then I start to believe he's feeling guilty about something, such as another women. <P>Anyways, the first two weeks after he left, I was a total wreck, had to take sleeping pills to sleep even half the night, cried all the time, lost 25 lbs. I could barely keep it together. But I came out of that, and have been doing really well considering. Going out and doing things with friends, joining group activities, don't cry anymore, etc. And I've been the primary caretaker for our daughter and am proud of how well I've done when my life was such a mess. <P>So, here's my questions, half of me wants to try once more, to just ask him to meet me for coffee and one last time ask him if there is a chance for us, ask again if there is someone else and that I would forgive him if there was, and why can't we work together on the problems, but if he says NO, I'm afraid I will go back to that pit I was in the first couple of weeks, and I really don't want to put myself back there and have to start over again. <P>But the other half of me says, if you don't try, you will never know for sure. And then again I think, even though I'm angry right now at the way he did this, I will keep being nice to him on the phone since that's our only contact, and keep giving him his space, and maybe over time he will start to miss being part of our family, and start to regret his rash decision, and then maybe we could sit down and talk about it, however, I don't have much time since the divorce will probably be final in two months. <P>Thoughts anyone, do you think I have a chance, or should I just give up and move on? I really thought that although we didn't have a perfect marriage, I thought it was pretty good. We all hung out together as a family on weekends and did fun things, but he says all we did was fight on weekends. How can two people in the same relationship have such a different view of what it was? <P>The hardest part is that just a few weeks prior to this happening, he was planning surprise anniversary trip for us, we had been looking at houses to buy, discussing the idea of more children. He called me at work everyday to see how it was going, say he loved me. When I asked him, "If things were so bad, how could you have been doing all those things." He said he was just going through the motions. <P>Please help, I need all the advice I can get.<p>[This message has been edited by MacKenzie (edited January 10, 2001).]

1. Work on yourself first.<P>2. Be nice on the phone.<P>3. Don't press for an in-person meeting, except for him to see your child.<P>4. Learn to use paragraph breaks so that we all have an easier time reading what you've written. If you want to write it all out first and add them later, that's fine. In fact, you can use the centermost icon over your post to *edit* it, and I recommend you do so and go back and add those breaks.

Being nice and putting no pressure on him is important. If you can get the strength to say to him something to the effect of "I love you and want to stay together. I understand your concerns about needing attention from me and I am willing to do what needs to be done. But if you wish to continue with this dovrce, understand that it is against my wishes, but I will remain faithful and loving." Then shut up and give him all the space he needs. Don't call him; he is beginning to recognize that he misses you. Let him see a woman who truly understands (or is capable of understanding) his needs, which you are demonstrating by not acting clingy or needy or griping. That is very important. Sometimes the other person will goad you into arguments to validate his/her position about leaving: "Yup, I knew we couldn't get along." I know this from experience. Throw them off course and they do not know what to do. My H is gone, but he did acknowledge that he was perplexed by my patience and loyalty during the separation. That is the essence behind plan A (infidelity or not). Read all that you can on plan A posts. It seems like you are going along with his indecision, but really you are allowing him to figure out that you are right for him on his own. That is empowering for him.<P>

If he left his first wife the same way, <BR>he has an established pattern of something.<BR>especially with the events just prior to the speech. something is fishy, not necessarily another women, but within him mentally, like afraid of long term committment, or becoming a parent, or something from his family of origin.<P>If he refuses to see a counselor, then he admits he doesn't want to consider the possibility.<P>I would mentally prepare for the divorce, especially with the events that were happening just before. It's really sad and depressing to see someone you love just turn into someone else right in front of your eyes.<P>tom<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>If he refuses to see a counselor, then he admits he doesn't want to consider the possibility.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>True. But the #1 attitude you want to influence (by hook or by crook) in a WS is the attitude that counseling is not for them. <P>A couple of caveats, though: If the counselor is one you're already seeing, or have had more than minimal contact with; it's probable that you *own* the counselor in the WS's mind ... WS doesn't want to deal with someone who is already biased. <P>Second, if you can get to a seminar program, like Gottman, PAIRS, Retrouvaille, etc., you need to make sure that long-term aftercare with a counselor familiar with their methods is available. Particularly if they are at the opposite corner of the country. I'd take a third-rate program with aftercare over a first-rate one without.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I would mentally prepare for the divorce, especially with the events that were happening just before. It's really sad and depressing to see someone you love just turn into someone else right in front of your eyes.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Defeat does not occur when papers are filed. It does not occur when a judge declares the marriage dissolved. It does not occur when the WS starts seeing other people. It occurs when the BS gives up. While it may not be a bad thing to capitulate depending on the circumstance, my point would be that if you do it arbitrarily when some milestone occurs, it may come back to haunt you. Especially when there is a child involved.<P>I don't think WIFTT intended to equate "mentally prepare for the divorce" with "give up", but I think it's easy to read it that way. "Giving up", if it is ever necessary, should occur in your own time and on your own terms.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 10, 2001).]

But how do I try and get him to counseling when we only speak on the phone a couple of times a week, and rarely see each other other than to exchange our child. <P>How do you influence someone and show them how much you love them and want the relationship to work when there's so little contact. <P>He called me today, and we had a long conversation re: our child and it was very nice, just like we used to be when we were still together, but that doesn't mean he's coming home, only that both of us are willing to work hard for our daughter to be happy.<P>But it seems to me that if the two of us can be such a team re: our child, while in the midst of this divorce, why can't we also work as a team to make the marriage work?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie:<BR><B>But how do I try and get him to counseling when we only speak on the phone a couple of times a week, and rarely see each other other than to exchange our child. <P>How do you influence someone and show them how much you love them and want the relationship to work when there's so little contact. <P>He called me today, and we had a long conversation re: our child and it was very nice, just like we used to be when we were still together, but that doesn't mean he's coming home, only that both of us are willing to work hard for our daughter to be happy.<P>But it seems to me that if the two of us can be such a team re: our child, while in the midst of this divorce, why can't we also work as a team to make the marriage work?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's lyin' time. You tell him you see things with respect to the child that indicate the breakup is having a detrimental effect. Actually, I doubt you'll have to make stuff up. Then you tell him that a family counselor might help the two of you mitigate the effects. <BR>

My H was willing to go to a counselor to discuss children issues, of which there were several important ones. It was pretty much a total waste of time. After maybe half a dozen sessions, she declared us done (in a positive sense) and said that she expected that we would be able to work out further issues on our own. In that last session, my H suggested that we meet for lunch once a week or more often to work out a separation agreement. Unfortunately, he had apparently neglected to clear that with the OW. Within a matter of weeks, he was calling me stupid and untrustworthy because I wanted to meet to discuss issues. The counselor had told him that it was way to soon for the children to have to sleep at the OW's house. He told our son that he couldn't spend more time with them because "I" wouldn't allow them to visit overnight at the OW's house.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>My H was willing to go to a counselor to discuss children issues, of which there were several important ones. It was pretty much a total waste of time. After maybe half a dozen sessions, she declared us done (in a positive sense) and said that she expected that we would be able to work out further issues on our own. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bad, bad counselor. McK, get to yours first and make sure there is agreement on your agenda in the event the counselor sees a glimmer of hope.<P>

Actually the counseling thing is true. Our child has been having problems due to the seperation. <P>She loves to go to dinner with him and play, but has been reluctant to spend the night at his house. Also she tells him that Mommy cries all the time, which I don't and she tries to tell me that daddy didn't feed her dinner or that he's a lier, which I know he fed her dinner. <P>So I was given a recommendation to a child phsycologist and have put in a call to him for an appt., just waiting to hear back from him. But I don't want him to come back to the relationship just because our child is having problems, I want him to come back because he truly wants to make it work. I sincerely want to help my child with her problems by going to this counselor.<P>Until that time, we have decided to scale back the visitation a little bit, it may have been too many nights away from her primary home at her age.<P>When he brought her home last night, he did stay at the house for about 20 min. and we had polite conversation, but we didn't talk about the divorce or any aspect of it.<P>I can't bring myself to tell him that I still want this marriage to work, because anytime in the past I have done that, he responds with "I don't love you anymore." or "You should have wanted it two years ago when you didn't pay attention to me." And I have been doing so well, not crying or being depressed, that I am afraid to hear those words again and go back to being so sad and lonely and blaming myself for the whole thing.<P>For now, each time I see him I will just continue to be very nice and to try and show him what he's missing. I'm not sure if there is another woman or not, but either way, I want him to see that I truly love him and want him to be a part of my life.<P>Any other advice?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie:<BR><B>Any other advice?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you're being given a sense of his emotional distance from you, *not* being faced with an eternal closed door. That distance can be gradually bridged, if you are patient, patient, patient. Just make every interaction the kind of interaction that makes him *want* to have yet another interaction. Other than that, get in front of a counselor who understands this could go a lot farther than working out parenting issues...<P>

Thank you. I did see my counselor today, and although he thinks that there is a low chance of reconciliation, he does do workshops and thought that after a couple of weeks of nice interaction, maybe I could bring up to him that there is a workshop being offered that would give us a chance to understand how the other thinks so that we could better co-parent together, and maybe if I put it to him that way, then he would be willing to attend. <P>If I put it to him that it's marriage counseling to work things out between the two of us, then I know he won't go.<P>Anyways, it's worth a try. We'll have to see how the next week or so goes.<P>Thanks for the advice

Well...here's an update on my situation. It's not good news at all, but I have gotten a lot stronger in the last two months since he left (plus those antidepressants help), so actually I am doing much better than I thought I would. <P>My STBX would continue to call me at work, under the guise of discussing our D, but then we would always turn to other things, family, friends, work, etc. He would ask what I was doing on such and such a night while our D was with him. I just kept thinking it was more than just friendly conversation, that it was more. My friends and counselor, however, thought it was more of a control issue. That he doesn't want to be married to me, but he still wants to know what I'm up to, and gets jealous from time to time if I'm out having fun. But I just kept wondering what was behind it all.<P>So yesterday when he called me at work, we chatted for a few minutes, and I just decided what the H___? It might hurt, but at least I will know and stop wondering. <P>So I asked him, "Are you still sure that this is the right decision for us?" He asked what I meant. And I just said, are you as sure as when you left that this divorce is really what you want? And he said yes. <P>We talked for about an hour about what he perceived the problems to be, and although I do still agree that both of us had things we weren't perfectly happy with, the reasons aren't ones that can't be fixed or dealt with by counseling. And I still don't agree that divorce is the answer, especially when we have a child. But, unfortunately, he doesn't see it that way.<P>He has said that there is no one else, that he's not having or hasn't had an affair (I'm still reluctant to believe that due to his past and also how quickly it all came about with my having no idea). <P>Basically, he said that all we have to talk about anymore is work and our child, and so when she grew up and moved out, we would have split up then anyways, so why waste all that time. Also, he said that I had a hard time balancing work, housework, time with our child, and time for him. That he always came last in that order. And last of all, that I always nagged him to help with housework, or certain childcare activities, and he got tired of always being in trouble for not helping out. And that he wants to find some happiness other than just being a parent.<P>Now these are all his exact words that I am using, and I of course have diffent views of this same situation, but nonetheless, no matter what I think in comparison to what he thinks, it does not change the fact that he is not coming home.<P>I think that he is looking for the perfect woman, superwoman, and he's never going to find it, he will continually be on this search. <P>I work 50 hours a week, bring in almost as much money as he, do 80% of the house work, do 80% of the childcare, take care of all the little details, car insurance, Dr.'s appts., all of it, and rather than pitching in and helping (he did help some), he complains that I never have any time for him. In his mind, I should have just said s___ the laundry, s___ groceries, what's more important.<P>Well, of course now that he's gone, I do wish that I had been more flexible and let some things go, but when you have a family, don't you have certain responsibilities that need to be taken care of. <P>And as far as the nothing to talk about thing, I said, look at all we have in common, we play softball together, volleyball, soccer, scuba dive, travel, we both love all of those things. And his response was "Yes, and as long as we are out doing those things, we are great, but when we are home, we have nothing to talk about." <P>But...I did ask him, "Well, obviously I have some aspects of my personality that I need to work on, so would you mind coming to my counseling appt. with me and explaining your side of the story to my counselor so that he can understand, and maybe better help me, so that in my next relationship this won't happen again? He agreed to go, not with me, but to go alone and tell my counselor. So he will be seeing him tomorrow.<P>My counselor still feels that maybe after tomorrow's session, hopefully he can talk him into doing a session with me, not necessarily to bring us back together, but just for me to understand how he thinks, and him to understand my thinking so we can be better parents together.<P>So, I guess I have my answer, the divorce will go through in a couple of months. Maybe I'm just vain or in denial, but I can't help thinking that down the line he will see it was a mistake. He can fall in love with someone else, and things will be wonderful for awhile, but eventually, they will probably argue about household duties and if they have children, there will be responsibilities that need attending to there, not just fun all the time.<P>I am sad, but I am committed to making the best out of this, learning from my mistakes, making a happy future for my daughter and I, and making better choices in partners in the future.<P>Wish me luck that my counselor can get through to him that these complaints are all things that can be remedied...but I don't seriously hold out any hope.<P>

I'd say continue to hope; and learn how to do a Plan A. Do not accept defeat until he is at the altar with someone else. NSR should have sent you a welcome post. You should post with a title like "Hey NSR-where's my welcome post?!" ... or just look for his welcome post to another newbie. <P>Whether there's someone else or not is irrelevant. There is a child, and your WS (wayward spouse) may come back. Your counselor sounds like he's trying to prepare you for disappointment, not encourage you. Be sure he doesn't give your WS any arguments *not* to return.<P>Don't become bitter. What's happening to you can cause tremendous feelings of bitterness (more than you're feeling now), and you're not going to want to have anything to do with your WS; this will happen probably just at the moment when your WS *could* be coaxed back ... but you won't feel much like coaxing. <P>Look at Harley's writings (especially His Needs/Her Needs), and programs like Retrouvaille and PAIRS.

Well, I seem to be at a crossroads, part of me feels like just going on with my life. I notice that when I go a few days without talking to/seeing him, my self esteem improves, I quit blaming myself for the whole thing, I cope much better. But as soon as he calls or we see each other, I'm down, depressed, can't understand why he doesn't at least want to give it a chance.<P>But the other part is afraid that if I give up now, I will never know if I could have turned things around. But it's so hard to be a good mom when my moods are continually up and down. <P>I mean he's told me at least 20 times over the last two months that he doesn't love me anymore, that he never will again, that a counselor isn't going to be able to change that. At one point I had asked him about going to a movie and he said the only reason he would ever go to a movie with me was cause he really wanted to see the movie. <P>And really, he didn't even want to seperate, he wanted out immediately, and he filed right away, and even complained that the 90 waiting period was too long. So I'm probably beating a dead horse.<P>But on the other hand, at times I think I see something in his eyes that tells me that he misses me. But I'm sure I'm just seeing what I want to see.<P>Today is the day he goes to my counselor to tell his side of the story, so we met to exchange my daughter and to show him how to get there. We decided on a set routine for picking up/dropping off our child, prior to now we had to call each other each time to coordinate time/location, so now there will basically be no reason for us to call each other with this new routine, and it almost seemed to me that he didn't like that idea too well.<P>Also, I told him to just tell my counselor that I would pay for this session next time since he was doing it for me. And he offered to pay! Prior to now, he had complained about being broke with paying child support. <P>At times he seems like two different people, one accused me of my daughter only being a chore to me, the other said that I never cut the umbilical cord and paid too much attention to her! One said that he hates what his relationship with his daughter has become since the seperation, and the next breath asked if he could bring her home earlier than the agreed upon time. <P>Realistically all of you that have been posting here for awhile, how many people have you seen on this board actually put their relationships back together? The statistics in the books say it's very unusual. So I wonder if I'm sabatoging my recovery by not just moving on like he told me to do.<P>Since this happened, we have been in contact with each other basically every couple of days about one thing or another, but now with this new visitation routine, we will not see each other until next Sat., and there is really no reason to call either, so I will be curious to see if he does call anyways. Part of me thinks he hasn't had to see the consequences of permanance of his decision since we are always in contact, so maybe a whole week without contact will be good, maybe he will miss me. <P>Anyways, my counselor will call me to tell me his impressions of the session, minus what my STBX asked him not to tell me, so I will be anxious to hear what he thought, although, I'm pretty sure I know what he will say. MOVE ON, he's never coming back.<P>Thoughts anyone??

Well, realistically, it's probably time for me to accept reality. I talked to my counselor and basically my STBX gave him the same reasons for the divorce. After our daughter was born, I devoted all my attention to her and left him out. I spent a lot of time at work and with housework and didn't pay attention to him. He said he just doesn't love me at all anymore.<P>He did tell him that there is no other woman, that he is committed to recovering from this relationship before he moves on to another relationship. But that he is not interested in any type of counseling as far as recovering our marriage, only counseling for us to be better co-parents.<P>He said that he has been trying to tell me for the past couple of years that he's been unhappy, but I just didn't listen. Now when I asked him why he didn't tell me for two years, he responded that he did...by not buying me as many presents on special occasions. Now how was I supposed to know that meant he didn't love me anymore, I just thought that as the honeymoon phase was over, you didn't get as many presents from your husband anymore. I had no idea he was unhappy. He did admit to the counselor that he is somewhat closed off emotionally.<P>Anyways, it is very sad to me that there is no infidelity, no abuse, no alcohol/drugs, no problems such as that, and we have a daughter, but he still maintains that there is no hope for counseling. Just says that no counselor is going to make him love me again.<P>It seems that it's as simple as me making the committment to him to be more attentive to his needs, and to be more flexible about the house always being clean, and him committ to being more open and sharing his feelings with me. These things are easily done through counseling I would think, but yet it's not even an option for him, he's just not interested.<P>I feel that his reasons are not entirely true, I have photo albums from the last two years full of pictures of all three of us, and also just the two of us having great times, and definitely paying attention to him, but it doesn't matter what I think or feel, it matters what he thinks and feels, since he is the one that wants the divorce.<P>I would like to Plan A, but how? We only will see each other about once a week, and the divorce will be final in about 6 weeks. And there is no other woman, so there's no fog to be lifted. He's just done with me.<P>Any advice for me anyone??

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie:<BR><B>...And there is no other woman, so there's no fog to be lifted. He's just done with me.<P>Any advice for me anyone??</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"The fog" is not necessarily about there being another woman. Believe me, the fog is there. You can tell because of the logical inconsistency in declaring the situation to be hopeless when the problem he identified is readily fixable.<P>My advice is to give him time. Who knows? Maybe when he's ready for a relationship again, he'll be ready to try a relationship with you.<BR>

You're of course right, it is some kind of fog. We talked for a long time the other day, and basically he say that he has been falling out of love with me for a couple of years, and actually didn't love me at all anymore 6 months ago, so that's why it seems so easy for him to move on. He has already had 6 months to adjust, and no one is going to be able to bring the love for me back. It hurts to hear that, but at least he is honest with me.<P>It seems like on days that I am feeling good about myself and my self esteem is up, I think to myself, he's wrong. We took our daughter to her grandparents almost every weekend for at least a few hours and went to lunch, or somewhere to watch football, or just to hang out. And they watched her a couple of times a week while we played out sports. Now how many people get that much time together when they have a young child? So I did pay attention to him and the relationship, we did do lots of things together. <P>He just is the type of person who always likes to be out doing something fun all the time, not staying home much to attend to laundry or yard work and such. But when you have a house and a child, there are certain responsibilities you have to attend to.<P>We relocated about a year ago, so we then didn't have grandparents nearby to watch our D, but he really really wanted this relocation and knew that we wouldn't have a steady babysitter for awhile.<P>But... on days when I am down, and my self esteem is low, I think to myself "I ruined my marriage, someone I loved more than this whole world doesn't love me anymore, and it's all my fault. What I wouldn't do to be given one more chance."<P>What I don't understand about myself is, he didn't always give me lots of attention either, he wasn't the hand holding, hugging type, and I really missed that. And sometimes I told him about that, and it still didn't change. But I would never have left the marriage because of that. Don't you make exceptions to some flaws because you love someone. And I did hate that he didn't like to stay home much. I wanted him to take more responsibility around the house. But still, in spite of these things, I still want him to come home.<P>Why can't I just go on, realize that he doesn't like my personality, and I didn't always like his, and why can't I just think, hey, now we will both find someone who is better suited to us and be happy. I guess I thought we were happy, and I still do love him.<P>Even he admitted to the counselor that he does crazy things sometimes, like lying to me, and he doesn't understand why. I'm hoping that it means there is at least the slightest bit of feelings there for me, at least something I can work on.

MacKenzie----lots of hugs to you from me and a legion of others. My wife has done this with our marriage of 22 years, so I know the pain. I have also found no magical cure. She, too, has seemed to chose going to a vacuum rather than stay and work on our marriage. I have read on here to try to put yourself in the shoes they are wearing now. In a way, by my wanting to change to what she has wanted for so long(just never told me) I am aggravating her by changing. But, put your focus on YOU. Make yourself the person you want to be, and try to be happy. His decision is his to make. You will be able to walk with your head up high, knowing you did all you could. If he comes back, then great---make it a great marriage. If my wife continues on and divorce happens, then I am going to make sure that the next woman I date is not a WAW. They deserve to end up with WAHs!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MacKenzie:<BR><B>But... on days when I am down, and my self esteem is low, I think to myself "I ruined my marriage, someone I loved more than this whole world doesn't love me anymore, and it's all my fault. What I wouldn't do to be given one more chance."</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Both your separate actions "ruined" your marriage (I don't like the "ruined" word--maybe it's better to say "paused"). You cannot take the blame alone. And you *still* have that chance. It's right now! Take a chance, don't wait to be given it. <P>The meaning you're giving to "another chance" is "another comfortably locked-in situation"--of course you don't have that. <P>If you look in a book of romantic ideas on a bookstore shelf--how many of them actually require you to be present or on the phone? Perhaps a bunch--but there are plenty you can do from a distance. You can start small; with nothing "over-the-top" that he can complain about. <P>This is the beginning of your Plan A. Your love bank account with him may still accept deposits, even when he has stamped it "closed". The only way to find out is to try to make some.<P>