I hate being a nice guy, because it seems that nice guys get screwed.<P>My regular schedule is my weekend, dropping off kids at school, monday morning.<P>Monday holiday is mine, X wants kids home Monday night, I say Tuesday at school.<P>It's my holiday.<P>Any suggestions? now I will even be giving up one of my weekends in Jan to her for Nashville, and she balks at trading weekends, because that puts for her such a long time between weekends, even though she has them just about all week.<P>I need real suggestions here.<P>My options that I see right now for the long term situation are:<P>Plan NG) continue being mr nice guy, which doesn't get me very far.<P>Plan TG) going the whole way, now mr. tough guy, which really irritates me, because I wanted it to be congenial. However, since her motives are control, always, and she balks at even considering 50/50 solid blocks of time, this is my logical next step.<P>The other day, she was even trying to talk me out of traveling on my summer vacation with the kids. <P>any peaceful suggestions?<P>and no it is not spelled out in the negotiations, but it will be in the final agreement/decree.<P>tom<P>

Well, I hate to say it, but there is a third course and it involves dishonesty.<P>Robert Ringer's "Type Three" is the type of person who always has an intervening reason why he couldn't or shouldn't keep his word. Something that develops later. <P>So between Nice Guy and Tough Guy is Guy Who Says One Thing and Later Does Another and XW may just have to swallow it.<P>There may be a subtle gradation between these three options that will better serve. I wish I had more to suggest.

WIFFTy,<P>My stbx and I declared which holidays were overnighters (and a start and stop time) and which ones were for-the-day only when we divided up the holidays (in the very beginning of our separation) to avoid this very problem.<P>I suggest you do the same and offer it up to her as something that protects BOTH you and your ex's interests with the kids - plus it eliminates the constant power struggle tug-o-war that happens with stuff like this.<P>I know for me - I get more caught up in the struggle for my "15 minutes" with the kids when I feel like stbx is trying to take it away - than I honestly really care about that particular block of time on that particular day. It's like...so many things have been yanked away from me I cannot stand to give one more inch. But that is not always what's best for the kids or even me. (I usually come to this enlightenment long after the battle - something for me to work on... )<P>I'm not saying you're in the wrong here...especially if she has them more than you...I'm just saying to examine your motives for this particular battle and decide if they are coming from the right place before you proceed.<P>Lisa

Lisa,<P>great suggestion!<P>for an anal-retentive, obsessive-compulsive SCHEDULER, she has her schedule done until June, she is a boarding school teacher. schedules 24x7, LITERALLY!!!!<P>NO EXXAGERATION!!<P>If I have a business trip to take next week, and I didn't call her during that day to tell her, she would get very chippy. couldn't even wait for dinner time for family discussion.<P>so any change is a major ordeal, which was one of her reasons for divorcing me, my job required many variable hours and traveling.<P>so I am up against someone who takes most everything personally, who I have been very easy going with, although she is not, and didn't want to put it into writing. During school, with all her teacher friends around, she wants them very close, during the summer, it is much different. <P>One agreement my lawyer gave me had times for everything. I don't like times, (personality trait!), but am considering that our agreement is too open ended, and needs to be tightened up there.<P>I will suggest it unless I come up with something better. Of course from her side, the answer will be school vacations are day vacations, summer vacations are overnights.<BR>then I'm right back to where I was in the first place, just in writing.<P><<GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!>><P>What I really want to say i can't and I won't, so thanks<P>tom<BR>

My advice is to nail this stuff down as much as possible. Dates, times, who picks up and drops off, and anything else you can think of.<P>Remember, you are now in a business relationship with the stbx. You wouldn't buy a house without all of the details spelled out.

Okay, teacher, it's time for the student to show you something!<P>First, I have one quick question that may make or break this whole discussion. Do you to basically have joint custody? I assume your answer is yes, although it may or may not be "court ordered", that's the understanding. Well, then technically, if you wanted to be difficult you could demand exact 50/50 time with the children, right?<P>You're not being a meany to expect to be able to spend time with your kids. In fact, they are depending on you to be their dad and fight for them. Don't forget that. <P>Okay, it sounds to me as if your stbx has not yet accepted the fact that she is no longer able to control what you do and when you do it. Sorry Start stocking up supplies now, because you will probably be in this battle for a long time to come. So, although it is going to be very hard for you, you will probably have to consistently be the nit-picker who keeps on insistenting on going by the letter of the agreement. I've seen it over and over again that she wants to rewrite the agreement (that is solid and in writing) to fit her intention (that is constantly changing and only in her head). It just doesn't work that way.<P>Here is an interesting idea that you have not yet considered. You said that your stbx is a scheduler--compulsively, obsessively so. Well, use that to your advantage! If you are not a scheduler and don't like times, find a good friend who's good at that kind of thing (or someone who is at least organized--haha) and look to the future! With this highly organized person who is on your side, sit down and figure out what YOU WISH FOR, assuming you could wave your magic wand. If you WANT to have the Monday holidays be overnights, look ahead with your organizer and see how many Monday holidays there are and when. Figure out,in pencil, the weekends that should be your weekend according to the current agreement, and try to think of possibilities when you might need to juggle or move around. For example, just guess that you'll need to change a weekend once every three months. Actually write in the currently planned vacations, breaks, etc. that you have agreed to as "yours". Okay, now you have all kinds of information, but this is purely from your point of view, exactly the way you WISH it would be.<P>Here comes the tricky part, teach. Look at it for one minute from her point of view. As badly as you want to have the kids every minute that are "yours", she also wants to have the kids for every minute that is "hers". Lucky kids! Anyway, now that you have all this info, make a couple of alternatives that would be reasonable to you yet respectful of her. For example, if there are four Monday holidays in 2001, your wish list (above) would say you want all four to be overnights. However, for the sake of harmony, you would settle for Memorial Day and Labor Day, and let the other ones go (Martin Luther King night and Columbus night aren't that dire, are they?). Same thing for the weekends that you have to switch. Having the kids be 3 weekends at one house and 1 weekend at the other can be mighty lonely for the 1 weekend parent. Maybe instead of doing 3 weekends at one house and 1 weekend at the other house (due to switching a weekend)there could be a staggered 2weekends, 2weekends, 2weekends, then back to the normal schedule. You get the idea, right?<P>Last but not least, the options that you gave Nice Guy or Tough Guy forget one other guy. That's the Nice Tough Guy. You can be civil and even downright congenial and flexible, but in the end your children are depending on you to fight for every hour with them. Tom, they NEED you, and don't you ever forget that. So I don't care if your stbx fumes and fusses about the agreement--let her! Make her stick to the custody and arrangements that she agreed to, and don't apologize for it. If you need a change, come to the table armed with several alternatives THAT ARE ACCEPTABLE TO YOU and let her pick one. <P>I don't know if you realize this, but you are reacting to her "misbehavior" rather than being proactive. You wait until she says she wants them home on Monday, and then you react. BTW, I have to admit, I do the exact same thing--I wait until my stbx does something and then react to him, rather than setting my boundary first. Anyway, what I'm encouraging here is to SET YOUR BOUNDARY FIRST and then let her pick from three or four options that you find acceptable. Okay?<P>So, not Mr. Nice Guy, not Mr. Tough Guy--Mr. Nice Tough Guy! Be reasonable and flexible, but ferociously enforce the agreement.<P>{{{{{{{{{{WIFTT}}}}}}}}}}<P>CJ <P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Tom,<P>You got a lot of great replies. I'd be interested in hearing from Lisa which holidays are overnights and which are day only.<P>I had this very problem, we were rotating holidays, and his was THanksgiving, me Xmas Day, him New Years. Well, he turned down Thanksgiving, turned down New Years, so next year, he thinks he gets THanksgiving (for not this year, and New Years,) AND XMAS. Where does that leave me,when I offered him his days (wanted him to take them) and he refused.<P>Problem is, its NOT spelled out and its a PAIN in my rear every holiday that rolls around. I also have the problem of ex not wanting any time on breaks, which not to sound horrible, but I'm a single mom of 3, plus I run a daycare. It would be NICE to have him take our kids for a few days on a break and let our kids get a break from the daycare. Plus, I could use a break from ALL kids every so often. <P>In my opinion, spelled out or not, I would interpret the current situation that if Monday is Tom's turn on the holiday, then that should be his til Tuesday morning.<P>You can't be a nice guy forever. I have tried it for a year and here, a year later, I still get the raw end of the deal everytime. <P>If you didn't get along all that great in the marriage, or you disagreed, then expect to disagree now and you do what protects YOU. <P>I understand her need to want the kids all the time, however, I suppose, this is her consequence of the affair/divorce. Something she will have to live with the rest of her life and there will be a few days when she has to miss her kids. That's life. <P>It's no different for me, I have to miss my kids every other weekend when they go to their dad's, but thats how it goes.<P>Sorry to go off on a ramble, but this topic irritates me because of my own ex.<P>I am going back to court to get this all in writing. HOW are the holidays split. What time for drop off and pick up, what is overnight and what is not. <P>Lisa, if you come back to this post, please let me know what you chose, to give me some ideas.<P>Tom, what have you decided? I think you should keep them overnight Monday. If it will be settled in the final papers anyhow, she may as well get used to it, and maybe this really is a control thing. What's really the difference if you drop them off at seven pm on Monday or take them to school Tuesday, they'll only be up a couple hours before bed anyhow.<P>Good luck,Dana<BR>

Okay Dana, Tom, here's my parenting plan agreement. <P>Spring Break - weekend and 2 1/2 days each - exchange at 2:00 on Wednesday<P>Christmas Eve - mine 9:00 am to 9:00 am Christmas day.<P>Christmas Day - his - overnight (same as above)<P>Remainder of Winter break divided in half equally.<P>Summer - one week me, one week him, back and forth, exchanging at 4:00 pm on Sundays<P>Because we are both teachers...and feel a strong commitment to consistency for the "school night/school morning" ritual and the desire for our kids to have a "home base" feel for the school week...any holiday that falls on a Monday (MLKing, Presidents, Labor Day, Memorial Day, Mother's Day and sometimes Veteran's Day - are treated as a "day only" holiday because that night is a "school night" despite the fact that the day is a holiday. Day-only begins by 9:00 am and ends at my youngest's bedtime (8:30 this year - 9:00 next - and caps at 9:30 pm in the 3rd year).<P>4th of July is always an overnight because fireworks don't even get started until dark.<P>Parent Birthdays depend on what day of the week they fall on - if it's not a school night we allow the sleepover until 9:00 the next morning - if it's a school night -we follow our school year schedule.<P>For the kids' birthdays...my stbx and I suck it up and have one party with all family (both sides) who's brave enough to attend invited. His family has no problem with me - since I was the dumpee...my family just bite down really hard on their tongues for the kids' sake. I handle our daughter's sleepover parties and stbx handles our son's.<P>Halloween follows our normal school schedule...whatever day it lands on...that parent gets it.<P>The kids stay with me during the school week (I am the overly-responsible parent and more of a "homebody" than stbx so this provides consistency for homework, backpacks, sports practices, etc.) They go to their dad's every other weekend (Friday to Sunday) and he has them from after work until youngest daughter's bedtime (capped at 9:30 pm) on Tuesday's and Wednesday's every week.<P>I am listed as the custodial parent, but as you can see we share a lot. It's not 50/50 - more like 65/35...but that is the priority we put on school year consistency. We have also agreed that when the kids are in high school and can drive - they pretty much can go back and forth between us at their own will during the day, but where they put their heads at night to sleep will still follow the schedule.<P>Lastly, the parent without the kids gets first right of refusal to "babysit" (even if their is a remarriage) when the parent with the kids needs to be absent from the kids fo more than 2+ hours during their visit. (This is so OW is not babysitter while I am at home without my own children - grrrrr).<P>It was a tough negotiation in the beginning because I was so hurt over the OW, I didn't want to be fair...I felt (and to some degree still do) that his judgement/morals became very questionable and he was not being a responsible parent. Now that some time has passed and things are less volatile between us, I feel we came to a pretty fair agreement that works well for our kids...I don't like the idea of OW being around our children, but for the time being that hasn't been an issue - he's kept her away - so I guess I'll cross that bridge if/when it happens.<P>Hope this helps - feel free to email me if you have any other questions. laporter66@hotmail.com.<P>Lisa

Thanks Lisa,<P>since X is one of those dreaded teachers, she feels that schedules are the only way to go, consistency. I was not raised in total rigidity, but with flexibility.<P>we are at the 60/40 percent with me 40% of course. Of course, being a teacher who gets all her energy from kids who need her, etc, it just gets difficult to get them away from her. She encouraged me to have sunday nights at my house, (unless she talks to her lawyer, grrrrr!) who favors the minimum father time.<P>now she is going back on that concept after meeting with her lawyer. I think, i could be wrong, as it is a disrespectful judgement, she thinks that as the CP, she has the final say in the schedule.<P>so I am considering going to a tougher negotiation stance with the lawyers.<P>thanks, though, i really appreciate it. It gives me more ideas.<P>tom

Tom,<P>My guess is you are going to have to do both plans, but try to be about 70% NG, 30%TG. Anything you can do right now that will engender good feelings will pay off in the long run.<P>When my ex started playing the control game with the kids, I just stopped asking to see them for a few weeks and she had complete control. Then came the time where she really needed to spend a little time with grownups and without kids!. When everything else had failed, she finally called me and gave me permission to have the kids while she was out. We never had a problem after that. And we started working together trying to do the best for the kids even though we could no longer shared the same pillow.<P>Bumper

In the end, Tom, it really needs to be what's best for the kids - for their lives.<P>Since my stbx and I are trying to bury the hatchet (other post on hatchet update - waiting for your reply there btw...), we have also agreed that the parenting plan is really just a "guide" - and a tool to fall back on if/when we are at odds with each other. If we continue healing our anger with each other as we have started to recently, I feel much less possessive with the kids and actually offer up more of the unequal time to stbx (for instance, I suggested he take my son hunting on Monday for dad/lad time even though it is technically my holiday this year).<P>From the non-evil,dumpee teacher standpoint - consistency does not equal rigidity - but it does give the kids a reasonably assured expectation of where/when they'll be at which house. Like it or not, this is important for kids to feel settled. (and it's really important for my 14 year old that his friends know where to get a hold of him when... IMHO. Maybe you can push for a LOT of time during the summer...when consistent bedtimes and schedules are not so important to kids (or teachers )<P>Lisa