<BR> Sisyphus, in Greek mythology, king of Corinth, the son of Aeolus, king of Thessaly. Sisyphus saw the god Zeus carry off the beautiful maiden Aegina and told her father what he had witnessed. Enraged with Sisyphus, Zeus condemned him to Tartarus, where he was compelled for eternity to roll to the top of a steep hill a stone that always rolled down again.<P> Interesting how we both feel this way. Me with my stone bing my anger and his stone being his unknowingness and fustrations.

There are other versions (in one he killed his kids to keep something even worse from happening), but in all he winds up with the rock and the hill. Albert Camus wrote on the subject ... said he learned to like his job.

Hi Janiee--<P>Just popped in to see how you are doing. Glad you are getting some of this out & your H is willing (if not eager ) to listen.<BR>You can do the "right" things for years, but if it is all being blocked by a wall (anger, resentment, etc.) it won't help. And, I think sometimes we think we should be able to just move on, but that wall doesn't go away on its own...<P>Hugs--<P>Kathi

Kathi, so right. I really want to extend my thanks to everyone for helping me through this. One I am farther I hope to pass info on to others. Hope everyone has a great weekend!

Jainee,<P>If the A is never talked about - it becomes and elephant in the room that you both try to ignore.<P>You can't "let it go" or your anger unless you have a place/method to release it when the thoughts arise.<P>For me, some of it was about my need to really analyze his thoughts at the time of the A that led him to cross that line. I needed honest answers to all my questions.<P>Another part was to get the truth to any lies I had been told - so there were no secrets "they" shared that I was not privvy too.<P>Etc, etc, etc. <P>The weird thing is for both you and your hubby...if you were to "talk it to death" as Sisyphus suggested, it becomes a desensitized issue and no longer holds the power and aura over your relationship that it does now.<P>good luck...<P>Lisa

He is so tired of talking about his A. I will continue to write anger release letters and just burn them.<BR>Another area we have a problem with is if I express to him my dissapointment with something he does. He takes it all so personal and then throws back hurtful comments to me. Then after I cry or we don't speak for awhile I tell him that it bothers me that he can't take my comment, accept it or ask about it, and move forward. He appologises then we move on but it seems like this happens over and over.<BR>Well, we will keep going as long as we both can...

Janiee,<P>It seems to me your last post just explained what you two need to be talking about. The affair is over, and you are in recovery for a long time yet the marriage isn't right. Is it the affair that needs to be addressed?<P>From what you have said I suspect it is no longer the A, so quit talking about it.<P>Instead talk about his reactions to your comments and yours to his or the lack of his.<BR>In short, it seems that you haven't realized yet how sensitive he is in general, not just about the affair. You don't understand why your comments seem to evoke this strong defensive response.<P>So why don't the two of you talk about this. Why don't the two of you focus on the ability to share your feelings, thoughts, and fears with each other. But don't even go near the A.<P>In fact, being a guy, I would strongly suggest that you start the conversation with "I want to talk" (That will bring up the defenses immediately ) "But I don't want to talk about the affair, in fact if it comes up the conversation is over." (That may help him relax, but it sounds like something worse than the affair is coming :eek .<P>Then detail what you want to discuss: Item #1, item #2, item #3, item #etc. Tell him that tonight only #1 WILL be discussed.<P>Have you noticed there is no "feelings" here. There seems to be a lack of emotions expressed. There is a finite and quantified agenda here.<P>Item #1 : I have noticed when I make a suggestion/critical remark, that you become very defensive. I don't mean to hurt you and I don't see the need for you to defend yourself. So I would like to talk with you about how you and I can convey the information we need to without me hurting you or threatening you.<P>Notice it is clear cut. You want this for yourself, but you want to assist him as well. <P>Perhaps this approach to reaching out, will help. I think that given his guilt, and your difficulties in reconnecting with him after his affair and the time of recovery, that you need to take control of this situation. But start with a real issue that can be addressed not one that can never be changed. He had the affair and that is all there is to it. He cannot change that.<P>But he can change other things. And in the process of you two exploring these other issues, you may find the peace you seek to allow your marriage to heal.<P>Hope this rambling is of some use.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Janiee,<P>You have been hurt. Plain and simple. One of your core beliefs in life and marriage was broken by your husband (you shall not cheat). That is no small issue, and you need to understand that. It sounds like the issue of cheating is a very strong ideal you hold on to and when your husband violated it, it cut you right to the bone. Your reactions and feelings are normal - you have been hurt.<P>Now it comes down to, what do you do with that hurt and pain? Do you let it end your marriage? You say that your husband has made substantial efforts to change his behavior and the way he treats you. <P>But you still don't trust him. <P>I think that sentence may say it all "I still don't trust him". I believe that trust is a fundamental building block of any relationship and when it is violated it has far reaching repercussions(sp?).<P>The first step in healing your marriage is to truly, unequivocally forgive your husband. Forgive him totally, with no strings attached. You need to get to a point where you forgive him so much that it does not need to come up again. I know how tough that will be. But once you truly forgive him, I strongly believe that the trust will begin to come back into your relationship. It won't happen quickly, nor will it happen all at once. It will take time. AND THERE WILL BE SETBACKS. Just focus on your love for him.<P>Don't let the thoughts of "well maybe I never loved him in the first place" come into your heart - I think they are only a defense mechanism. If you can prove to yourself that you never did love him, then you can start to believe that what he did was really not that bad and that if you divorce him, it is an OK thing to do for the both of you. That just isn't so.<P>What he did was one of the worst things a husband can do to a wife. But it was a mistake. We all make mistakes - we are all human. Just because he made a mistake does not mean that he does not love you (or that you do not love him). And even you have said that his behavior has been such an improvement since the mistake.<P>Finally, try to stop focusing so much on what he did to you. As much as it hurts, it really is in the past. He broke his wedding vows, but does that mean you need to break your's? When you said "for better and for worse", did it include "unless he does something to me first". That statement (for better and for worse) is very vague for a reason - for there is no way to know what the "worse" may be in a marriage. This could be the "worse" in your marriage, meaning that the rest of your relationship will be "for better"!<P>The past is gone - its over. We can't change it, as sure as I am that BOTH you and your husband would like to do just that. Focus on your present and your future. Pray for God to heal your marriage. Don't dwell on the "bad" thoughts. I know it is easy for me to say since I am not you, but at one time or another we are all asked to truly forgive someone who has really hurt us.<P>And know that you can end this marriage because you can't trust your husband. But don't forget that the next person may "hurt" you just the same. There are no guarantees in life.<P>Focus on your love for him. Work on the forgiveness and the trust. Love him.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janiee:<BR><B>He is so tired of talking about his A. I will continue to write anger release letters and just burn them.<BR>Another area we have a problem with is if I express to him my dissapointment with something he does. He takes it all so personal and then throws back hurtful comments to me. Then after I cry or we don't speak for awhile I tell him that it bothers me that he can't take my comment, accept it or ask about it, and move forward. He appologises then we move on but it seems like this happens over and over.<BR>Well, we will keep going as long as we both can...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>John Gottman's four horsemen of the marital apocalypse are Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt and Stonewalling. He says marriage can survive just about anything but those four (that includes plate throwing, yelling and screaming, affairs, etc.). <P>Complaints are different from criticism. A complaint is "there's not enough money coming into the house" ... a criticism: "You don't make enough money". Husbands often feel like they've been sentenced to a communist reeducation camp because of something in the past that has been corrected. And wives, once they have something that merits criticism, often continue criticizing on that topic and others long after criticism is warranted. He'll defend his position and finally tune you out. And you'll push harder trying to make your point, and have contempt for him for not letting you do it. <P>You can't stop talking about the affair because you haven't heard what you needed to hear yet, or won't believe it. He doesn't want to talk about it any more because it's always the same angle, and he always thinks he has dealt sufficiently with it.<P>I would bet the horseman are riding all over your marital landscape leaving destruction in their wakes. Perhaps there's not enough left to save. ... but the earlier you do a workshop, the better chance you have. <P>Otherwise, if I could say something to him, I would say this:<P>"Your wife has lost respect for you. She will inevitably divorce you (unless she stays sullenly with you but not *with* you--an even worse fate). Your relationship went into a very deep hole, but I don't want to blame either of you for digging it--yes, you may have cheated, but somehow she wasn't making you as happy as you needed to be when that happened. <P>You have held on tightly. Now let go lightly. This doesn't mean that you don't love each other. It means, right now, that the connection you forged feels broken to her (though not to you, I know). The legal connection must be severed as well, if she is to feel sane and whole. Be kind to her, and yourself. Cooperate in what she wants to do. Then wait. <P>Don't let it destroy you. It happens often, and try not to focus on the justice or injustice of it. Be the best gentleman you can be about it. Don't push to reconcile, don't run off elsewhere. Don't pester her, but don't cut her off either. Maintain your self-respect, and your humility. Hold yourself in readiness. If you both behave well during your time apart, <I>Retrouvaille</I> or some other series of workshops may help you come back together. If that won't happen, there will be a moment when you realize it and you can go on living your single life. Wait for that moment.<P>Peace."<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 15, 2001).]

Thanks again everyone. Things are going better and I am really taking what you have said to heart. I realize it takes two to make this work and what I do and how I view things is a very important step in our happiness.

Someone recommended "Fighting For your Marraige" and "Getting the Love you Want" and I must say after the first chapter of "Fighting for your Marriage" I must pass on that recommendation to everyone!

Me again, things have smothed out a bit reading and thinking. Still feeling a bit unsure to continue, but still here.