Hello all,<P>I had a HUGE discussion (actual conversation without anger)about burying the hatchet with my stbx and trying to find common friendship grounds. We rode together to a restaurant and talked over a couple of drinks (first one was necessary to quell the butterflies in my stomach...second one just allowed me open up despite the risks - stopped at two - had to work today )<P>Basically, I let him talk a lot about why he involved himself with Separation OW so quickly - for myself I only tried to help him to see it from my viewpoint -if only to encourage him to be a little more sensitive about not bringing her around or up in conversation with me or the kids.<P>He doesn't realize how many "lonely guy" Freudian slips he made while talking.<P>"I told you I hate being alone."<BR>"When you asked me not to date until the divorce was final, you were trying to control me...so I showed you you couldn't do that anymore."<BR>"Going out with *Nurse Ratchet* was better than drinking in the bar with my buddies every night."<BR>"Not that it's any of your business, but I put the breaks on after *Nurse Ratchet* and I slept together a couple of times...it was too soon and not for the right reasons."<BR>"I don't see us (he and Nurse Ratchet) as a couple...but we are in a relationship."<P>All of these statements to me say this "relationship" is doomed - or is it just wishful thinking on my part?...Nurse Ratchet also separated from her husband the same weekend as mine left...they are on the same timeline emotionally. <P>My stbx mentioned today that he could even see us (he and I) eventually "date" post-divorce ourselves, once we found friendship again, and if we could find a way to not relive the past behaviors... Just when I was feeling the door be completely closed...that comment comes out of the blue. Actually, it kind of scared me. I'm very chicken to end up in a situation where I have to go through all this early divorce emotional agony again now that I'm finally feeling like I've worked through the worst of it.<P>Yikes, yikes, yikes!<P>Lisa<P>------------------<BR>---------<BR>To err is human, to forgive divine.

I hope that you can continue to move forward. You have come *so* far. You were unbelievable! Now ... Plan A ... sure it's a risk ... you need to take the risk to know whether you can put your marriage and life back together. <P>Just make sure you can leave this situation with *all* questions answered. Look for <A HREF="http://www.pairs.org" TARGET=_blank>www.pairs.org</A> in your area, or do some things from this site, or go to <A HREF="http://www.gottman.com" TARGET=_blank>www.gottman.com</A> . <P>Keep reaching out, and make it comfortable for him to reach back. No matter how things turn out, you'll be able to look yourself in the mirror and know you did everything possible for your family.

does he wear glasses?<P>If so, does he take them off occassionally to wipe the FOG off??<P>He is an (extreme?) Extrovert who one can't leave alone for very long. he doesn't have much, if any, ability to self soothe. <<ref. Schnarch>><P>Control issues, hmmmmmm, shows that feelings are allowed to override the intellect. I would ask, take as inquisitive, what did you see in him as a great husband for your marriage? what are his good qualities?<P>the reason I ask, could that lonelyness and perceived control issues, be the issues that drove him to lose control? or is there more?<P>the reason I ask is that gives big clues about how he needs to be loved. He sounds insecure, but defiant, i suppose similar qualities to my X, but mine is ICKY! <<I digress!>><P>If you still want to try, it appears that you have to let him think it's his decision all the time, that you can't be a time worrier, and you have to go everywhere with him, figuratively because he is afraid of being lonely, and remember loneliness is a state of mind, not necessarily physically. <P>Long time ago, some discussions said that joined at the hip was so cool! I think its icky, but others require it. it sounds like he craves it.<P>sounds very revealing, <BR>good luck, why don't you try another one?<BR>maybe get some more out of him, maybe you could play the OW and try to steal him back?<P>Nurse Ratchet, hmmmmm, I can visualize her now!<P>tom<BR>

I am curious as to why you think he wasn't involved w/her before you and he separated? You posted how fast he got involved w/her etc. it seems to point that he was at least emotionally involved w/her before you were separated.<P>I don't know that part about dating post divorce would not put much stock in it. He still sounds like he not taking responsibility for his actions placing blame on you. He needs to do some work on himself it looks like before anything can happen between the two of you.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>does he wear glasses?<P>If so, does he take them off occassionally to wipe the FOG off??<P>He is an (extreme?) Extrovert who one can't leave alone for very long. he doesn't have much, if any, ability to self soothe. <<ref. Schnarch>><P>Control issues, hmmmmmm, shows that feelings are allowed to override the intellect. I would ask, take as inquisitive, what did you see in him as a great husband for your marriage? what are his good qualities?<P>the reason I ask, could that lonelyness and perceived control issues, be the issues that drove him to lose control? or is there more?<P><BR>If you still want to try, it appears that you have to let him think it's his decision all the time, that you can't be a time worrier, and you have to go everywhere with him, figuratively because he is afraid of being lonely, and remember loneliness is a state of mind, not necessarily physically. <P>sounds very revealing, <BR>good luck, why don't you try another one?<BR>maybe get some more out of him, maybe you could play the OW and try to steal him back?<P>Nurse Ratchet, hmmmmm, I can visualize her now!<P>tom</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>WIFFTy,<P>I actually ran a whole scenario in my mind last night where I became the OW in my own marriage...I wonder if I was jealous of myself? *giggle*<P>I'm curious what you mean about the control issues...I've read on some of your posts that you felt your wife was controlling of you...that's what my stbx says about me. Some of it is his justification - I realize - and some of it is a reaction to pent up crapola growing up in a very mother-dominated (and still does) household. I do feel I am "the responsible type" - a detail person, etc. At one time I thought that was a good thing because it complimented his more "fly by the seat of your pants" style. He kept me spontaneous, I kept him semi-grounded. But ever since we moved to his hometown where Mommy Dearest lives, the words "control" and "mothering" were thrown as insults at me.<P>What qualities attracted me to him? He was a good looking, hard worker with ambition, extremely good with children, dedicated to his family (parents, sisters) and very lovey-huggy which I craved since my family tended to be a little cold and distant.<P>His needs? Well he'd answer "to be happy and feel loved." But when I looked through the various inventories and His needs/her needs I think "to be admired" is his number one need - I'm not sure how loneliness works into that list...maybe the companionship one - but we did have companionship - we golfed together, shopped, worked on home projects, etc. It was one of the things other couples have always said they admired about us. Maybe what he's calling "lonely" is really about feeling connected emotionally. He totally detached about a month before he moved out. He called it "giving up."<P>I sort of implied that I would be willing to "date" even after our divorce is final but I could not/would not "sleep" with him (or anyone for that matter) who was sleeping with someone else at the same time. Maybe the single world can handle the idea of having 2 or 3 partners with whom they can casually date and sleep with - but it's definitely not me. I told him it would make me feel like part of the Studio 54 Disco era meat market. He said he totally agreed. I said we would have to be on equal footing - I'd have to know if he was seeing others too - we let the conversation on that topic end there.<P>So, what next? I'm thinking somewhere between Plan A and B...keeping the door open but only an inch or so - so the draft won't blow me over...meanwhile going on with my life as a soon to be divorced woman with kids. What else can I do? (Rhetorical)<P>Lisa<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TMD:<BR><B>I am curious as to why you think he wasn't involved w/her before you and he separated? You posted how fast he got involved w/her etc. it seems to point that he was at least emotionally involved w/her before you were separated.<P>I don't know that part about dating post divorce would not put much stock in it. He still sounds like he not taking responsibility for his actions placing blame on you. He needs to do some work on himself it looks like before anything can happen between the two of you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I do wonder about an EA...the timeline coincidence is huge for me. I guess there's a certain "believability" in the way he tells the story of meeting her. He says he met her after he moved out. She's a friend of a coworker who came to their office for lunch one day. The coWorker mentioned that they both were recently separated and they struck up a conversation which led to dinner which led to dates which led to...she is separated from someone my stbx went to school with and he also went to school with her brother - though she went to a different high school and is 3 years younger than us - so I don't think he knew her from back then (almost 20 years ago). I guess the scenario makes logical sense and I could see how a co-dependency rebound relationship could come out of the initial introductions.<P>Doesn't make me think of her as anything less than one big "ho" - but I could see how it could happen.<P>Also, my kids were with him a lot in the early part of our separation - it would not have left him any real time to be flinging. Especially when she was having to work around her hubby and child too.<P>I agree he needs to do work on himself before any real "new" relationship could happen between us. I wonder sometimes (when he's sounding pseudo-reconcilable)if that's his desire to go through with this divorce no matter what. We would have to start over - a new thing rather than the old one.<P>(I can just see my family and friends shake their heads and wonder what the h*ll I am thinking )<P>Lisa<BR>

soon2b_alone,<P>Well I guess it is kind of "good news"? I think the first question you need to ask yourself is "was he saying the thing about dating to comfort me, or was there honesty in his words". Only you can truly answer that (because only you were there If we were all there we would have needed a bigger table, or probably a reservation, because with such a big party most restaurants can't just fit a party that big at the drop of a dime. Then it would be awkward since nobody here really knows what any of the others look like.....oops sorry, I digress! )<P>Seriously though, from what you are saying it sounds like he has doubts about his decision. It sounds like for whatever reason, he is afraid to "trust" you again (which by the way I believe is what my wife feels). The only way you can re-establish his trust is by your own actions. And this can be done in a way that will benefit you whether things work out for you both or not.... If you continue to take the time to work on yourself - to better yourself - to learn and grow, then it will "hit two birds with one stone". First your husband will see the changes in you and hopefully begin to believe that they are not just temporary ones. Secondly you will be moving forward and you will grow stronger and stronger. If things never work out, you will no doubt have no problem handling it. And, as much as a lot of us here hate to believe this, if he comes back, you may not want him back.<P>It is sad though that he believes that there may only be a chance for you two to reconcile AFTER a divorce. It is a shame that people need that kind of closure while they still believe they have feelings for their spouse.<P>My advice: Keep doing what you are doing. Keep contact with him, but don't push things. Let time march on and see where it leads the two of you.<P>But do take a minute or two and be thankful for the meeting. It sounds like it went well.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike