Lonelysoul,<P>I hope you don't mind, but I felt the need to respond to your post on the "Who's Ready to Date: Dumper/Dumpee survey" thread about being offended by Mike's broad statement about Dumper's lack of commitment. First, let me say that I doubt of he meant to offend you (I'll let Mike speak for himself, though); and I know as a Dumpee, I did not have any intention that way. Your point is well taken, the Dumpees tend to overgeneralize about the Dumpers. Sorry about that. Also, just for clarity, I don't think any of us really believe that Dumpers were uncommitted to their marriages. For a variety of awful circumstances, you couldn't stand the pain in your marriage anymore--and I think we all realize that's the case. <P>When Dumpees say they didn't see it coming, I think we could unanimously say that we all saw that there were serious problems in our marriages that needed to be addressed somehow, and yet it had not occurred to us to address it outside the bounds of marriage. For example, the week before my stbxH left me, we literally did not sit together, barely spoke, watched TV in separate rooms, and lived our separate lives. In my heart, I desparately wanted him to come sit by me on the couch, put his arm around me, and say, "This is silly, honey. We can't keep living like this. Let's go to counseling and work this out." Instead, he said goodbye, and THAT'S the part I didn't see coming. I knew things were wrong between us, but it had just never dawned on me to not stay together.<P>Anyway, I'm much more concerned about this paragraph: "I also taken offense that somehow as the Dumper we are seen as carefree and ready to date and have a glorious time. Get real. I was married 16 years. This has been the worst ordeal of my life. My marriage failed. I never wanted that. But emotional and verbal abuse aren't too great either. Don't kid yourself into thinking all Dumpers are mean spirtited adulterers who don't know the meaning of committment. Let us remember the other vow we say besides forsaking all others. Oh, and not all of us are adulterers either." May I address that with you?<P>Lonely, I don't want to speak for everyone here, but I will speak for myself. I do not see Dumpers as carefree and ready to date and have a glorious time. My guess is that Dumpers also feel crappy and sad. However, as a Dumper, you have been thinking about the option and possibility of leaving for a little while, and the growth and separation necessary to move on has begun. Thus, it's like a jump-start. Us Dumpees are still struggling with accepting the option and possibility of leaving, and thus we're just behind you on the growth curve and the adjustment. Consequently, speaking strictly from my own point of view, it seems to me that as I'm struggling with feeling rejected and sad and hurt, you've been through that and are on to step 2. Also, I acknowledge that to some degree, we put our best face forward, so it's not like we really display to our former spouses how much we're hurting or struggling. <P>My spouse was/is also emotionally and verbally abusive, so I know the pain you felt. I know you never wanted your marriage to fail, and eventually the day came when you just couldn't take one more hurt. I get that. The funny thing is that we (you and I) are just on opposite ends of the same rainbow here. You had the courage and self-esteem to stand up for yourself and your needs and you--and I did not. I have not now, nor have I ever thought that all Dumpers are mean-spirited adulterers who don't know what committment is. However, just plain statistics will show you that many marriages end when either the OW or OM is involved. Very often, the two partners in a marriage are hurting so badly that one is at the office and someone treats them just in a decent, civil way, and they are in trouble. Then the euphoria of having their needs met, where once they were hurting so badly, well, it temporarily blinds them to the reality of what they're doing. Decisions are made and papers are signed because of heavy denial and not looking at reality. HOWEVER, that is just the way it goes in many marriages--not all. I am positive that some end because one partner or the other either becomes true to themself and can't be abused anymore, or grows to a point they can't stay together anymore, or maybe they just reach their limit and can't stay! <P>My purpose in writing this huge novel to you is to say, dumpee to dumper, that I'm sorry our generalizations hurt you. You did what you had to do in your situation, and we didn't think about it from your point of view. Also, I thought you might appreciate some perspective from the "dumpee" point of view--so we can learn from each other. <P>Okay? {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Lonely}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited January 11, 2001).]

Lonelysoul,<P>----------------------------------<BR>As the Dumper...I take slight offense by SoTired2000's sweeping statement about the Dumper's lack of committment. You cannot measure everyperson's level of committment and reason for dumping using your own situation as the yardstick.<BR>----------------------------------<P>You are right to call me on that. Re-reading what I wrote, I left out my usual disclaimers. I base this on my own experience and that is all it is - my own experience. And you are right, looking back I now do see signs that were right in front of my face of how our marriage was in trouble. The issue I have is that for the longest time my wife would say and do the same things over and over again. She would hide her feelings about big "hurts" that I caused her(never on purpose - usually because of me being a dumb insensitive guy ), then strike out at me for the little ones (like being late for dinner). The little problems would turn into big arguments and then she would say that she thought we were having some "real" problems. Well not knowing that I "really" hurt her a few days ago, all I saw was that she had a bad day and was blowing up over something small. So to me, we weren't really having serious problems, it was just a silly argument.<P>So I guess you can say that there were signs that I "missed". My issue is that when she finally took the time to sit me down and get everything off of her chest, she had already made up her mind that: 1) It was over and 2) That there was no way I would ever change.<P>The truth of the matter is that once I found out just how bad she was hurting, I did change - overnight! And it was not a two week change of behavior. That was 1 1/2 years ago and I continue to work on myself daily ever since then. The person I am today is worlds away from who I once became. But she would not even "try" and give me another chance. I HAD changed, but it was not good enough for her - she refused to trust me again. That is something I will have to live with for the rest of my life - and it really is not fair (but then again, life is seldom fair).<P>The main point of my post though was that as a dumpee, we are so far behind the dumpers emotionally (at least when the news breaks). My wife says she experienced pain and hurt for years, so when she decided it was over, her love tank was empty. But mine was not - I was unprepared for losing her. She was my best friend in the world - I would lay down my life for her! So it has taken me a long time to catch up to where she is emotionally, and that I think is the case with most dumpees.<P>When I talk about commitment I am honest in saying that I view marriage a lot differently than most people. The vows I made the day of our wedding were not just to my wife. They were to God and they were to myself. From that day forward I believed that I would do ANYTHING to fix/save/help my marriage. Divorce was something that would never be an option. I truly believe that if both individuals can take divorce "off the table" as an option, then the answer to their problems can be found "within" the boundaries of their marriage. I also agree that there are exceptions to this belief, just as there are with any belief.<P>To me commitment is not something that you do when everything is rosy and happy. Commitment is something that shines through when your world is crashing in all around you - when the wind is blowing down your doors - when you feel you just can't go on anymore. BUT SOMEHOW you stick to your word and your beliefs (and your vows). That is what commitment is to me. A troubled marriage....how long do you try to make it work? The answer for me is for as long as it takes.<P>I know that this mindset is not in the norm in today's society, but that is just how I feel. I didn't mean to make it seem like I was "judging" you or anyone else here. It did seem that way and I am sorry. For I am who I am and I don't think any less of anyone just because they don't see things my way.<P>But you were right to call me on that and I do value your opinions.<P>God Bless,<BR>MIke

I understand the dumpee's perspective I do. I know all about committment as well. What I think, some people fail to realize is that your spouse was not my spouse, and vice versa. As hard as it is to except there are some marriages that are just plain destructive. <P>On committment...I was married 16 years. I had a spouse who became very ill in the sixth year of the marriage. We had two children...three years old and 3 months. During this time, we were building a house by ourselves. The illness, I speak of was very serious...also during that year, my spouses parents died and I was in a serious car accident. I stuck it out. I was committed to my marriage. But, as you know, it takes two. Everyone goes on and on about vows. I get the impression that by vows you mean forsake all others...how about the love, honor, and cherish. Which one has more weight? I believe they have equal weight. My H did not cherish me...he took me for granted, he did not honor me, for he called me names and belittled me, my friends, my job, and my family. Love? That is debatable. I know I wouldn't want to hurt someone I loved.<P>What gave me the courage to leave? When I heard my sons talk to me in the same disrespectful way their father did. Did I want them to grow up to speak to their girlfriends...their wive's with such disrespect? There was so much more, but I don't want to bore you with details. <P>I also work in the business of divorce. I am a career counselor for an organization that helps divorced and separated get back on their feet. I am not a novice in divorce. I have heard more horrifying stories than I care to admit. I have counseled people on restraining orders, family court, OM/OW, But hearing them...helping the victims of divorce, did not prepare me for living it. I can tell you this...dumper or dumpee it is hard. People change...people have different views on what a marriage is...people take their spouse for granted. So many people say opps, I didn't know I was ignoring her/him, I didn't mean to be this way or that...they realize their mistakes when the spouse is gone. I don't know. I don't think there is one concrete answer. I do know one thing, you can't judge others by your own marriage or your perception of what happened. I am sure your spouse would have an entirely different view of the marriage. Who do you believe? Maybe it's somewhere in the middle. I have found that every one is different...every story is different and they all break my heart. My point was that no one sit in judegement of another whether they got dumped or they did the dumping. There are divorces out there that should not take place...people do have MLC and are selfish and leave for the wrong reasons...and sometimes the marriage just died. It is sad and unfortunate. People should grieve and mourn the loss, but don't judge others by what is a suitable mouring period for you. Some people have been lonely a long time...married or not. There is a big difference between being lonely and being alone. I have learned that. I was lonely for many years...now that I'm alone...I am not lonely.<P>I hope everyone here finds their way and finds happiness. We all deserve to feel loved and appreciated.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think we could unanimously say that we all saw that there were serious problems in our marriages that needed to be addressed somehow, and yet it had not occurred to us to address it outside the bounds of marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, it is not unanimous. Until my H started acting uncharacteristically cruel shortly after his affair started, if there were serious problems with our marriage, he forgot to tell me that they existed. Even now, I don't know what these "problems" were. The evening before he announced he wanted a divorce, we had called a realtor to make an offer on a house. About six months before the affair began, we were considering renovating a house - I asked him after he left why he wanted to do that if he was thinking of leaving - and he admitted that at that time he had no plans to leave. <P>Affairs very often have nothing to do with problems in the marriage - as Frank Pittman says, they are almost always the result of problems in the betrayer (in men, often, according to him, resulting from problems in his relatiionship with his father).

I am sure Frank Pittman is wonderful, but he isn't the expert with the last say on why men or women have affairs. <P>Perhaps in some cases a man had a bad relationship with his father and it screwed him up. There are plenty of men who had horrendous relationships or no relationship at all with their father and they didn't screw around on their wives.<P>I do believe many people truly didn't know that there was a problem with their marriage, but that doesn't mean there weren't problems. Unless you are a complete pschotic or a the biggest cad in the world you don't just get up one day when you are blissfully happy in a marriage and decided to have an affair and leave. <P>My stbxh would tell you he had no clue. I did tell him, but what the hey...we were married many years, in his head, I was just nagging. I often would hear his married friends complain because their wive's complained about no romance, not paying them attention, etc. Well, those men would do well to listen. One of those friends wives left her H...no affair; though, I don't know the reason. But I'm sure their were clues. <P>I realize it is hard to be objective when you are the one going through a betrayal, but often times people who were closest to the couple saw things or sensed things. One thing is for sure, you can't blame yourself for your spouse's betrayal. It's hard not to, but I don't believe there are excuses such as a bad childhood, etc. We are all give the right to choose.<P>Susan<P>

Even if it is true that all men who have affairs had poor relationships with their fathers, that does NOT mean that all men who have poor relationships with their fathers have affairs. Frank Pittman did not say that, and the fact that not all men who had poor relationships with their fathers have affairs does not impact the validity of Frank Pittman's thesis. <P>Other psychiatrists have said that in almost all cases where men leave long term marriage, they are suffering from depression. Among other classic symptoms, my H had lost all interest in activities he normally enjoyed. I suggested he go to a doctor, but as far as I know he never mentioned his symptoms of depression.<P>My H was unhappy about our financial situation, about his job, about where we lived, and about the fact that his business had not succeeded. Then a young relative of ours was murdered. A personality break is not terribly uncommon after a crisis such as a business failure or a death. Unless you have lived with someone who has gone through this, you can not understand. It may even seem hard to believe. You may want to believe that people don't change overnight, but they can and do.

Susan,<P>obviously, there was a communication or an interpretation problem. My W said that during her last two years, she tried everything she knew to make me happy, and when I reviewed the tapes, none of her actions were of the type that I valued.<P>therefore, without knowing my EN, she didn't have a clue, regardless of what she said. When she decided it was over, when I got her EN's i could see where i let her down, but she also flatly said she could not meet any of mine, and I believe her, she can't. I also didn't realize the power of her EN's.<BR>I tried to do what her words said, and she never responded how she claimed she would. <P>So the real love language was not used by each of us.<P>Did I see it coming? I talked about D several years ago, in a positive way, meaning we need to work on our relationship, or we will be D when the kids leave. (my values: parents should stay together for the kids because our problems weren't insurmountable.) Her response, "my parents should have divorced, so we will." Huh? what does my IL's have to do with us? followed with "Since I refuse to do counseling ever again, did it once, i am not waiting until the kids are gone." Great, i picked a W with no perseverance.<P>So you may have believed that you tried, and you did, it was not in the language of your H or if it was, there were non verbal clues that confused him, or his personality or FOO values had him interpret the actions and words differently than your intention.<P>Frank Pittman has an excellent book, but no book is THE ANSWER. I see you dismiss Nellie's point with a black and white impossibility. My X does that. drove me nuts, the world is not black and white. You can gain educational points from most every book one reads, either from a new idea/concept, or reinforcing old concepts.<P>I am not attacking you, I am trying to point out a different interpretation of your viewpoints from my experience. that each of us tries our best, but many times the behavorial actions are not in the right direction, and the verbal/non verbal interactions get different interpretations for very good logical reasons.<P>therefore, again, it is back to working on the self to make it as knowledgable about oneself and one's relationships to make the next one the best it can be. I know from personal experience my current friend uses the same love language as I do, has most of the same values, and personality. <B> the difference is like night and day! </B><P>but i am now very educated on myself, and my relationships. I know what i need, and i know what i have. one can't get any better than that!<P>tom<BR>