Suppose a bereaved spouse has been avoidant of contact (minimizing phone and in-person meetings) and a fogged wayward spouse has *seemed* outwardly happy and perfectly willing to maintain contact (wanting to meet for purposes of finishing up financial issues, etc.), but suddenly wants to go the mail and e-mail route, avoiding even phone contact--just at the moment the bereaved spouse would be amenable to meeting in person.<P>Also suppose the bereaved spouse has somewhat prior to this change asked the wayward spouse to do something difficult to do (outing a family secret in order to protect certain family members) that would require facing their own (unfounded) shame, guilt, fear, etc.<P>Now, assume the wayward spouse has *never* had any problem standing up for herself to the bereaved spouse, to the point of being verbally abusive, etc. In short, she's a tough cookie except for this one subject.<P>How do neutral, outside observers interpret the clamming up: anger over the BS's request, an effort to avoid the unpleasant request, or a sign of fog starting to clear?

I know this is a goofy answer, but the objective outsider would see all three things. <P>Let's see if I am seeing the events clearly. You were the one avoiding contact, whereas your xW seemed okay with contact and relatively "happy." Now you have told your xW that together you two need to expose a family secret that she requires her to face her own shame, guilt, fear, etc. Suddenly, now, the xW is limiting contact? Is that basically what's happening?<P>I'd say a couple of things. First, she is probably not really ready to admit this family secret and face herself, so she is trying to avoid contacting you in order to avoid dealing with it. Second, she's probably fairly upset that you are being pretty firm in insisting that she do something that is very uncomfortable for her. I bet she will squirm and avoid, and when she absolutely MUST do it, she will blame you for hurting her (you "made" her feel this). Lastly, what we all term "the fog" is the amazing ability to deny reality even when it is staring them in the face. If she IS forced to face this issue, especially before she is ready to admit it, she is likely to use every technique available to try to avoid it, including going DEEPER into the fog. However, if she does admit it, it will be almost like a slap in the face to a hysterical person--to some degree the fog will be forced to lift. <P>I'll tell you what. My gut feeling is that she is trying to avoid this topic at all costs, and that is why she is limiting contact with you suddenly. You are forcing her to see something she does not want to see, and to some degree your light of reality is piercing her fog. That makes her mad, and she blames you for it. <P>Sorry. Wish I had better thoughts for you, but that's the way I see it. <P>{{{{{Sisyphus}}}}}<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I would say ditto to above...sounds like only part of the fog has lifted...so long as we can live in denial of what really happen we can have a relationship. But if you point out, inadverantly or directly that I made a mistake...a big one then I won't play with you.<P>I am going through this right now with my soon to be X. If I ask him what color his socks are he will respond in e-mail...otherwise I hear nothing. it's a challenge. You have to know that if this person wants to be in your life there can be no more secrets, no more of this isolated shutting down ... it's hard we want these people to love us as much as we love(d) them...while it is their issue to deal with the ramifications are on us...are you OK with living your life afraid that if you make a comment about infidelity, mistakes etc. that she will revert inward...tough call...but the running thing is a huge issue in my opinion.

Sisyphus,<P>I think I may have asked you this in the past, but I can't remember what the result was, so bear with me... My question is "why do you feel the need to "out" this secret now?"<P>Is it something that is time sensitive and that needs to be brought out right now? How long has it been a secret? If this is not an issue that will have some immediate beneficial results to whomever it involves, then I kind of feel like you may be using it as a tool to "hurt" your wife. (only you can truly answer that). <P>It also sounds like you focus on this secret a lot - I have seen you bring it up in several posts over the past weeks/months.<BR>Could it be that you are focusing on this "secret" to try and take your focus off the pain you are feeling concerning your wife? Just maybe? From what I have read about this "secret" it sounds like the only effects it will have are: 1) For you to enact some type of revenge and make your wife hurt 2) Make your wife resent you even more and drive her further away and 3) I really believe that you may be upset with yourself down the road, not so much because you brought the "secret" to light, but rather that you did it for the wrong reasons and maybe at the wrong time...<P>My own opinion here, but if it were me and there was no direct threat to anybody at the present time, I would let the secret "stay" for a while longer. First I would get myself to a point where I would be 100% sure that telling the secret or forcing my wife(X) to tell it, was not out of revenge, but rather for the greater good.<P>I just kinda have some doubts about your motivation, as I think you may have as well by the way you talk about it...<P>If you truly want to help someone, that is one thing. But if it is only going to cause pain to all involved, then maybe just wait...<P>And you may get some direct advice if you divulge at least in part, the secret here to us... No exacts or anything like that, but rather a general idea so we have more to go on when writing back.<P>My prayers are with you!<BR>Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>I think I may have asked you this in the past, but I can't remember what the result was, so bear with me... My question is "why do you feel the need to "out" this secret now?" Is it something that is time sensitive and that needs to be brought out right now? How long has it been a secret?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's been secret about 20 years. It has been *partially* outed to another family member, but in such generalities that the person who got the information was confused as to what was meant. It is *time sensitive* but it's not like harm will or won't happen with certainty at any point. Risk waxes and wanes, but generally gets larger in my estimation, peaking twice--once within the next few years, again a few years thereafter.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Could it be that you are focusing on this "secret" to try and take your focus off the pain you are feeling concerning your wife? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, it became a focus as a tool for revenge. But I realized that what I wanted rather than revenge was to stop carrying the secret. There are potential victims yet unwarned, and of course I would *not* be the victimizer; however, if the harm comes, I don't feel I would be blameless if I hadn't done everything I could to protect (which is very little, but I hope to do it). <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My own opinion here, but if it were me and there was no direct threat to anybody at the present time, I would let the secret "stay" for a while longer. First I would get myself to a point where I would be 100% sure that telling the secret or forcing my wife(X) to tell it, was not out of revenge, but rather for the greater good.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm 100% there. And the threat, while hard to gauge, is severe enough to be worth some embarrassment, etc., in forewarning parties who need to know. I have offered my services as messenger if XW can't bring herself to do it.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I just kinda have some doubts about your motivation, as I think you may have as well by the way you talk about it...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, when you start with a fantasy of doing something extremely nefarious, but wind up thinking at last that a lesser version of it must be carried out as a moral duty, doubts are justified. But this is a threat that XW herself has acknowledged, and a moral duty *she* realizes that she has. She has, I think, determined that she will wait until the last possible moment to tell it. That moment is impossible to gauge (heck, it could have happened already), and XW could lose her resolve even when she decides the time has come, or be hit by a truck tomorrow. I think the time is *now*, and even if it is not, there is likely only a small harm in being *early*.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you truly want to help someone, that is one thing. But if it is only going to cause pain to all involved, then maybe just wait...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, there may be some pain. But I think XW will be relieved, the warned person will exercise vigilance, and the perpetrator may never know a thing. There is a potential for ugliness, but again, it doesn't outweigh the importance of disclosure.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And you may get some direct advice if you divulge at least in part, the secret here to us... No exacts or anything like that, but rather a general idea so we have more to go on when writing back.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, something happened to XW ... a line *was* crossed, but abortively and only minimally--nonetheless it was of course traumatic, and likely criminal. There are others who will shortly grow into the position XW was in at the time. They are accessible to the offending family member (who is still around [living in same town even--unlike when prior situation arose], and related to the potential victims in exactly the same way, but in iffy health), and the person in charge of their protection has no clue. I *can't* presume that this was a one-time thing by someone who is not healthy enough to repeat and who would be prevented anyway by the guardian's general vigilance. Okay?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 16, 2001).]

I see what you are saying.... That changes things. Now I ask you, how did you find out about the "incident"? How many know anything about it? If more than a few, then could an anonymous letter be a potential help? I don't usually believe in anonymous letters, but if what you are saying is what I think it is, then secrets like these often go "untold" for years, and sometimes never come out.<P>But if they do come out, usually "it" has happened to more than one person in the family. This unfortunately is one of the darkest family secrets there is.<P>But I still don't know how it would be taken coming from you. And if your wife is not ready to "face it", and there is the potential for someone else to be victimized, an anonymous letter to the "guardian/parent" of the potential victim may help. Whether the recipient believes the letter or not, their level of suspicion will be raised, which may be enough to thwart any re-occurence of the event.<P>Just be sure that what you know, is the truth - False accusations like (again what I think you are inferring) that are very dangerous and damaging.<P>One immediate course of action for you to take might be to talk with someone who deals with these types of issues and ask their opinion - anonymously. I am pretty sure they will suggest that this needs to come out now - if in fact there is another potential victim...<P>Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>I see what you are saying.... That changes things. Now I ask you, how did you find out about the "incident"?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>XW told me, and more details came out on occasions when she discussed her concerns for other family members with me.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> How many know anything about it?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know, the perpetrator obviously knows, and another family member has only a very minimal and distorted version ... this family member is an ostrich about a lot of things. IMHO, the person was not a good person to ask whether the thing should go further ... neither wanted to hear the details, nor do anything about it.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If more than a few, then could an anonymous letter be a potential help? I don't usually believe in anonymous letters, but if what you are saying is what I think it is, then secrets like these often go "untold" for years, and sometimes never come out.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd have to track down the person's address. It's actually an attractive idea, although I think the source would be all too clear. I was actually going to contact this person directly and try to deliver the information in person. When I determined to out it, I did not want to "hide". <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But if they do come out, usually "it" has happened to more than one person in the family. This unfortunately is one of the darkest family secrets there is.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I sure hope not. I don't think there were other targets, at least none to whom I bear any responsibility.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I still don't know how it would be taken coming from you. And if your wife is not ready to "face it", and there is the potential for someone else to be victimized, an anonymous letter to the "guardian/parent" of the potential victim may help. Whether the recipient believes the letter or not, their level of suspicion will be raised, which may be enough to thwart any re-occurence of the event.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's an interesting point. One that would certainly alleviate *my* conscience. The rub is that how can I know it got there? Only if all hell breaks loose...<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just be sure that what you know, is the truth - False accusations like (again what I think you are inferring) that are very dangerous and damaging.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I would not claim the firsthand experience. I *would* accurately represent what I was told occurred. Just looked up the address. The letter *may* go out today.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>One immediate course of action for you to take might be to talk with someone who deals with these types of issues and ask their opinion - anonymously. I am pretty sure they will suggest that this needs to come out now - if in fact there is another potential victim...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Done. My shrink was kind of wishy-washy on it, but in general the perp seems to be like a lot of his clientele ... I question his judgment of the topic from just the thirdhand info he has. Think he may be a softy.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 16, 2001).]

Sisyphus,<P>I am sharing with you my family history, and it may or may not apply to your situation. In my family of origin, I was beaten and hit with everything in the house. My dad was and still is an alcoholic and my mom was and still is suffering from bipolar disorder. My dad raped me when I was very, very little, and then raped my little sister until she was a young teen. I STILL feel badly that if I had said anything that I might have saved her and stopped him, but I was very young and I didn't really know any better. Nonetheless, it is a lifelong sorrow. <P>Luckily, my little sister was brave enough to say something to the whole family. My dad is still alcoholic and has not changed in the least little way that I know of, but I am so grateful that she outed this behavior and MADE us look at it, even though it was difficult for her and embarrassing for us. In my opinion, her bravery literally saved my children and my neices from suffering the same fate. <P>Now, there is nothing I can do to stop him or change him or anything. HOWEVER, armed with this knowledge I can protect my daughter,my neices, and any other people who mistakenly think that he's a kind, "Santa Claus" kind of man. I can literally save children from lifetimes of hurt and pain. So if this is anywhere close to the situation you and your xW are in, I applaud you for your efforts. It was unbelievably difficult for my sister to reveal this to the family, and a lot of people were mad at her for a long time, but how can that compare to saving my daughter from being raped by her grampa on summer vacation? How can staying silent because it's comfortable compare to the agony a child feels when someone she trusts does THAT to her? <P>It's highly probable that NO ONE will want to out a secret like that. If your family secret is similar, though, I have to encourage you to keep on with your quest, and when they attack you--even when your xW attacks you--remember the little folks you'll be saving. <P>Wow. You are totally in my prayers night and day. <P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>How can staying silent because it's comfortable compare to the agony a child feels when someone she trusts does THAT to her? <P>It's highly probable that NO ONE will want to out a secret like that. If your family secret is similar, though, I have to encourage you to keep on with your quest, and when they attack you--even when your xW attacks you--remember the little folks you'll be saving. <P>Wow. You are totally in my prayers night and day.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you. I'm sorry you went through that. The letter is sealed and in a stamped envelope ... going out today. Only took a couple of lines, with just enough detail I hope. I've asked the recipient to keep quiet himself for XW's sake (XW was not specifically identified, but perp *had* to be -- else quite a few people might be under suspicion ) and the sake of perp's innocent family. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 16, 2001).]

Sisyphus:<P>As an officer of the court, aren't you obligated to report the potential endangerment of any minor children if you become aware of a potential situation?<P>I know teachers are - I am one. If I have knowledge that abuse of any kind may "alledgedly" be going on and I sit on the information, I can be held liable both criminally and civilly by the courts and the victims.<P>I think you are not only obligated to warn the guardians of any potetntial victims, but you are also probably obligated (at least morally) to involve Child Protective Services to at least investigate.<P>All of this advice, of course, is based on assuming what "the secret" is...<P>Lisa

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by soon2b_alone:<BR><B>As an officer of the court, aren't you obligated to report the potential endangerment of any minor children if you become aware of a potential situation?<P>I think you are not only obligated to warn the guardians of any potetntial victims, but you are also probably obligated (at least morally) to involve Child Protective Services to at least investigate.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not aware of the extent of my obligation. It is not my area of expertise. However, your point is well taken. <P>I have no knowledge of any current situation. I only know that someone who hasn't been a minor for a good long while reported some information to me that was much more than a mere fearful notion, but less than anything having really "gone on". Not much of a case, in any case.<P>By sending this letter, I believe I have discharged my duty. The situation is remote enough in time that I believe a mere warning is enough. I do not know this dog is running around biting. I do know that this dog once took a little nip at someone...

Hi Sisyphus<P>anything to protect others from the most horrible experience that I could think of. Assuming of course, like everyone else.<BR>I know I posted to your other thread about protection of the children/grandchildren - that must be paramount here.<P>If your letter protects others, I say send it. It would be much better in my mind to incur your w's wrath, than be responsible for something disastrous. Although you obviously would not be directly responsible, I feel you would feel a great sense of guilt at your inaction. And at perpetuating the secret.<P>I had cold shivers when I read your original post, I just had a feeling that I knew what you were referring to. If I knew something like that, I would have to do something. Never having been faced with it, I don't know exactly what I would do, however, I would have to do something.<P>take care of you, you're in my thoughts<P>Jo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by soon2b_alone:<BR><B>As an officer of the court, aren't you obligated to report the potential endangerment of any minor children if you become aware of a potential situation?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Here's the extent of one's obligation in Florida: <BR> <A HREF="http://www.state.fl.us/cf_web/fs/childabuse/canassess.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.state.fl.us/cf_web/fs/childabuse/canassess.html</A> <P>What I know doesn't *quite* reach the standard for immediate reporting. It *would* if I knew how much unsupervised contact the perp had with the potential victims.

I'm just a layman here, but it sounds to me as if anything that happened, happened in the past--long enough ago that there really is no legal action to be taken, nothing that could really be proven. However, as I understand it, what you are trying to do is pre-warn someone so that there are no other occurences. Thus, you are trying to take action BEFORE the fact, in order to prevent it. If that's the case, I think you should be congratulated. <P>Now get ready. If you sent that letter, it is conceivable that the recipient will not want to hear what it has to say. If you signed your name, chances are very good that folks are going to be very angry with you and do anything and everything to avoid that elephant in the living room. Even if you didn't sign you're name, they may be able to put 2+2 together. Rest in your conscience, though, no matter how hard the storm rages, because I firmly believe you did the right thing, the morally upstanding thing, and the hard thing. <P>{{{{{Sisyphus}}}}}ppp<P>Those p's are pats on the back.<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.