Well, had the kids over this weekend, and after I picked them up, 11 yo s said that X would be typing up one of his school papers.<P>I started in on him, then cut it short, realizing it wasn't him that was the problem.<BR>Then last night, i reviewed what X had done for s while we were skiing, and she typed it up, corrected some spelling and grammar, etc.<P>Now, here is a TEACHER, 20 year professional, doing a 6th grade english paper for a kid.<P>So we spoke about it, and she said, "I knew it was wrong, I couldn't help myself." Then she went on to rationalize it as 1) she didn't do it alot, and b) she is in some bad habits from the marriage, <P>Well, I didn't ever see her doing the kids homework with us. So my observation continues to be that she will say "anything at the moment to make herself feel good." Now is my thoughts that she will get better delusional? and here we want 11 yo son to go to the same private boarding school she teaches at, but he will be set up to fail if he doesn't do his homework himself.<P>She assured me it wouldn't happen again.<P>My analysis is that 11 yo son decided to stay with me an extra night, and she is scared of loosing the kid to me, so she was trying to be a great friend to the kid! There is a time and a place for that, but that is not the time!<P>So, any divorced teachers out there, or any other experienced divorcees with nut case quality X's have any suggestions? Or is it me? am I too strict?<P>And this was the parent who proofread the 11 yo s's paper, and he got the lowest grade ever!<P>ggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!<P>I want to photocopy it for future reference, but may not get the chance as kid has it with him.<P>tom

Wiftt,<P>You could be really nasty, tell x that you are going to tell the teacher so that son has a chance to do his own work. This would also teach your son not to be lazy and let his mother "type" it for him. <P>Remember, you can't control her behavior. You can, however set boundaries for her indirectly by making your son's teacher aware of what she has done. I would think that most teachers would be able to tell the difference between a sixth grade paper and a "parent helped" paper.<P>My nutcase x has actually been very nice lately. But then again, he was always nice to aquaintances. A little time always helps to distance things a bit. Plus, he's not married anymore, so I imagine that most of his time is spent trying to "score" rather than worrying about our d, or ways to make me pay for leaving him.<P>And I guess that was a real cheap shot at men in general, I apologize.<P>ps, what are you going to use a photocopy for in the future?<P>H

Tom,<P>Hey there! <P>You did the right thing.<BR>Your son does need to learn that having his mother do his work for him will in the end get him no where.<P>I would also say that having a talk w/him letting him know what the importance is of doing the work a couple of weeks to several days before it is due,will then allow him the time to get it done and have the chance to type it him self.<P>Keep your chin up! <P>Your doing a great job! <P>Gina <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----

AAACK! That explains all the inconsistent papers I receive from my junior English students. Their psycho parents are writing them.<P>I would conference with the teacher, but DO NOT say anything about your ex doing the work. Ask about the quality of his writing and other works. (Don't single out writing as an issue; your ex might think you are singling her out--then again, she probably will anyway.) See if the teacher has any comments about his writing quality. Maybe she keeps a writing portfolio on him so you can see if this has happened before. Also, don't involve the teacher in the middle of anything with you and your ex. In other words, don't say that you suspect your ex "wrote" the papers unless she suggests another author first. If I heard that, I'd wonder if you were the spiteful one.<P>Then, if you have an opportunity, see if you can get your son to revise the paper with you as a supervisor. (Gosh, now that I think about it, all of these sound like they will cause hell for you and your ex. I am lost here.)Yes, most teachers can easily recognize a 6th grader's work versus an adult's. Maybe that is why he got a low grade on the first. I know I don't always call my students on that kind of thing specifically because it is very hard to prove and can be hairy. But their grade reflects it. <P>(STUPID QUESTION ALERT: I almost asked if YOU have a computer for him to use. I guess I am too busy worrying about that darn stack of essays I have to grade on Harlem Renaissance poetry. Argh)

WIFFTy,<P>As one of those dreaded teachers, I always assign a hand-written rough draft first - to be done in class. This virtually eliminates the parental rewrite because the obvious differences in quality are very apparent for all to see.<P>Now, if all she did was some spell checking and a little nip and tuck for clarity...I don't really have a problem with that. As an English teacher I encourage my students to get all the advice they can on their writing prior to turning it in to me. In the real world, nobody turns reports in to their bosses without having their secretary, the guy in the next cubicle (and their wife, the English teacher)look it over first. <P>So, I guess I would have to look at the expectations of the teacher first, for allowing it to be written at home (was she hoping for parental involvement?). Then, I would look at the amount and type of editing your ex did - did it change the content dramatically (for instance, did she correct a misunderstood concept about a history topic or something?), or just the mechanics?<P>Content I would take issue with, mechanics I wouldn't. Getting others to proofread for you is a coping skill we TEACH students to use. As for her actually typing it...ah, I'd say "pick your battles." There are bound to be much bigger fish to fry with her down the road...if you nitpik everything she does while your son is in her care...I see disaster on the horizon.<P>Again, question the motivation...is this REALLY about son's homework or is it about power struggling with the ex? I know I keep bringing this up with you...but it's because I recognize myself a little in some of your posts...and I can be the queen of getting caught in power struggles with stbx. <P>Lisa

S2BA,<P>the problem i have with your approach is,<P>1) what if there is no one around to proof your work? You have to be able to do it yourself. Suppose the person is worse at english than you are? how much help is that?<P>2) it practices: typing skills, proofing skills, and <B> time alotment and management skills, </B> and reinforces my goal of double checking your own work, ie self criticism and improvement. It also reinforces responsibility for your own work, beginning to end.<P>Specifically, a learned response from the X is that "I should only have to do something once. . . . " ughh, how i hate that phrase.<P>Do you know how many times i have redone things from scratch because of computer crashes, from the first time being wrong from an misinterpretation, from getting a better idea after thinking through the first time, etc? <P>3) X admitted she was wrong, and said she couldn't help herself. (HELLO??? isn't this sympomatic of something internally WRONG??") like the EA, possible PA? <P>this is a teacher that, because she teaches at a boarding school where kids NEVER have parental support, USED TO dislike parental support in any form. Particularly if the parent is very smart in her field, and can help the kid whereby she feels useless as a teacher. <P>So with all these inconsistencies, all i can think is that:<BR>1) she feels guilty about what she is doing to her kids, <BR>2) is so afraid of them liking me more, or something, they will leave to live with me, 3) she has never been taught these skills and therefore doesn't know how to teach them.<P>and she has admitted to me in the past, that I am a much better parent in that respect than her.<P>so I will not put the teacher in the middle, so i will still take suggestions.<P>BTW, I don't dread teachers, i dread teachers' attitudes that don't realize that one can learn without teachers or learn from someone that doesn't have a teaching degree or job., ie. like myself, mostly self taught, through learned self criticism and self improvement goals.<P>tom<BR>

WIFFTy,<P>I didn't think you meant ALL teachers and I was just teasing about the "dreaded" line .<P>Like I said, I just see a lot of myself in your posted interactions with your ex. I know that some of my handling of my stbx comes out (consciously and subconsciously) of a place of hurt and a desire to have him "hurt" like I do. Hence, power struggles and both of us trying to prove who's the better parent. (My situation - not necessarily yours...).<P>I agree that there are times for kids to learn from their own mistakes - rewrites and more rewrites, etc. But I believe a good teacher teaches a kid to use a lot of different techniques to get at the "right" answer. That bag of tricks can include using the people around you to check your thinking (like we do on this board), or your grammar, spelling, etc. It can also include the "helps" built into software programs like spell checker, grammar checker, etc. And it should also include depending on yourself and your own efforts too. I don't see it quite as black and white as it sounds like you do...but that probably comes from our different backgrounds and experiences with the education system.<P>Lisa<P>PS - the natural consequence for your son is to get a lower grade on his essay for choosing someone who doesn't have great English skills to help him with his paper. That's one of the coping skills I teach - if you're going to get help, get someone who knows more than you! I usually get in my best Obi Wan Kenobi voice and say "choose wisely, son..."<P>Cheerio!

Lisa,<P>I wish it were that easy! my take on english, there are mechanical issues, and there are style issues. Style issues are the hardest to teach, but make the writing work the best, assuming mechanically correct.<P>However, X is also a minimalist, doing just enough to get by in the academic world. Therefore, presents bad habits by making excuses for everything, nothing is your fault, if someone else does it for you, its their fault. I hear them all.<P>The kid was smart, but he has his mother's personality and brains, and unfortunately, the more I see and know, the less I will be able to help him grow up decently.<P>so its just the constant struggle, but<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Like I said, I just see a lot of myself in your posted interactions with your ex. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>shouldn't that be <B> As </B> I said, . . .<P> <BR>tom<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The kid was smart, but he has his mother's personality and brains, and unfortunately, the more I see and know, the less I will be able to help him grow up decently.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It sounds to me like you are projecting your anger at his mother on the boy. How is this statement different from "He is just like his mother, and he will never amount to anything."<P>I think Lisa's points are very valid. There is more than one right way to teach English, or anything else.<BR> <BR>I don't have a teaching degree, and I homeschooled my kids for many years. I have taught at the college level. If there is one thing I have learned, it is that all children are different. <P>What really concerns me is the number of posts of yours that I have read that mention the words "better parent." Parenting is NOT a competition.

Nellie,<P>you are right, but sometimes those are her words, and since now she can't let me have them for more than a weekend without getting desperate to see them and need them, how is she going to let them go in several years? How is she going to prepare them for college? Her fear of overnight summer camps has slowly seeped down in them.<P>She does not promote independence, nor respect. How would you feel if your offspring were being brought up with the new values of your H and his GF? I don't think that you like their values, or their actions and feel powerless to change them. But you don't have that situation, I do.<P>Yes, I am angry, because we had a great family, the kids were doing well in school, and now, she is dragging them down with her.<BR>Her house is huge, there are extra rooms, plenty of space for desks in each room, etc. The kids do homework together at an undersized kitchen table, and constantly fight with each other (witnessed it last night) Why can't she have them study in their rooms at their desks where they would be free from interference from each other?<P>Yes, there is more than one way, but I believe in a certain structure within which the learning occurs, ie: the child must attempt it first, not say I can't do it, mom, can you? I watch it constantly, X loves to give attention when kids can't do the work, and is afraid to encourage them to challenge the next level when they accomplish the first. This results in the minimalist approach to life, and her family is just like that. She also used to attack me when after they accomplished the first level, I would have them think about the next level.<P>The whiners get the attention, and if the whiners don't, then the attention giver is labeled mean.<P>She has left them with me when they were even younger to go to a teacher conference for four days. We had a discussion last night and she said she couldn't do that any more, she misses the kids too much. great, how is that showing older kids how to spread their wings, be independent, think its ok to live with dad for three days? Dad is tougher on them, doesn't put up with whining and not trying, and the kids respect that at my house.<P>They sit down, do their homework, but still resent my asking them about it, the secrecy issue like X has about her life, and the pushing them to the next level, or even discussing with the. I have guest lectured in MBA classes and her classes, as well as taught my subordinates how to do my job and all have been very successful after I send them on their way. So I have confidence that I can set an appropriate learning environment, as well as promote learn by doing in the environment, which overcomes fear of making mistakes.<P>She has that fear, which she is passing down. So it is a struggle to overcome the insecurities and the dependence oriented environment in which she is raising the kids so that the kids can leave home with confidence!<P>tom<P>

Tom,<P>I think it is too soon to panic about their independence. When my oldest was in sixth grade, I couldn't imagine her going off to college, but she matured a lot in the next few years. She is now spending her junior year abroad. The next daughter down started college in another state when she was only sixteen. Both of them are doing fine. It is amazing what changes you see after they go through adolescence.<P>And, btw, my kids have always done their homework in the same room. They are all very involved in each other's lives. None of them spend much time at all in their rooms, and that is the way I want it. I would certainly NOT want them raised according to the OW's values, a woman who lets her kids have tv's, vcr's, and computers in their own rooms, and whose kids apparently rarely emerge or interact.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B> my take on english, <P> shouldn't that be As </B> I said, . . .<P> <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>WIFFTy (can't quite call you Tom - that's my stbx's name...grrr...),<P>That's English (with a capital "E")...<P> (back at ya!)<P>Lisa<P>

My two cents:<P>While proofreading is not always bad, I would hate to think that my students' parents are reading his essay and simply telling him which words to capitalize and if his participles are dangling. I would hope that they would point the mistakes out to him and make him figure it out himself. Some people just take a red pen to it (I suspect your wife was one) and be done with it. <P>Yes, style is different from mechanics, but sometimes they are so intertwined that it is impossible to separate the two. And some parents do not know the difference and end up rewriting the entire sentence the way they would say it. It's a fine line. It's always a bad idea to have someone else type your papers for you. Could you insist that he handwrite it instead? (If the teacher does not object.)

Tom, Haven't read all the posts..and I'm not a teacher..but I have experience in a child not doing their homework and expecting someone else to do it for them...or just not doing it at all...I did some of it for her..which was MY problem!! but if I didn't she didn't do it..and well..they teach all that "self-esteem" crap about how it will hurt your child if they fail..blah blah blah...well..(my dad and step mother are BOTH teachers and I heard that from them)<P>I learned that her self-esteem will suffer more if I do it for her..or if she doesn't do it herself..so last year she had a report due<BR>and didn't do it..her teacher called me asking about giving her more time..I told him NO!! She had just as much time as everyone else..give her an "F" he was in SHOCK that I would say that..I explained to him that she would never learn anything if she kept getting more time to do the work..so he gave her a failing grade..and all the other students who had the same problem..She hasn't turned an assigment in LATE since..and I no longer do her assigments for her..I may help her and give pointers..help w/ spelling and such..(but she has learned to use the spell check on the computer quite well) and her self esteem has improved greatly..<P>But, the point I want to really make here..is this..that when someone else does the homework for them..it tells the child they are stupid and can't do it themselves..<BR>and thats what they learn and begin to believe...soooooo...that said..Good Luck

Prickers & Petals,<P>thanks, and remember, you are preaching to the choir!<P>tom

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gsd:<BR><B>While proofreading is not always bad, I would hate to think that my students' parents are reading his essay and simply telling him which words to capitalize and if his participles are dangling. I would hope that they would point the mistakes out to him and make him figure it out himself. Some people just take a red pen to it (I suspect your wife was one) and be done with it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My XW went through college without ever really learning to write. Although her parents were very assimilationist professionals, there was a lot of Spanish spoken at home, and consequently she was always a little bit behind (though she has no real trace of a Spanish accent--it's all North Central Florida).<P>When she was in grad school, I can remember working with her on the weekends to do her big thesis-like project; and basically *I* wound up putting the thing together.<P>When she was in her first real job after grad school, I would wind up writing huge chunks of the narrative part of her reports where she just couldn't commit words to paper. Gradually I was able to show her how to lift and rework sections from other reports on similar situations. I began to insist that there be a framework for me to start with, so she had to find one. Then I went farther; making her *tell* me what she wanted the narrative to say (instead of anticipating). <P>All of this was not without a lot of <I>angst</I> on her part about how she couldn't do it. Finally, it got to the point of me asking her what she wanted the sentence to say. Then I would have her type those exact words, and work with what she had typed. Over time, I didn't have to be there anymore, she would call me during the day for help with a difficult sentence--but she was basically writing the things on her own without me needing to be there. Then even that dwindled.<P>The unfortunate upshot was she became known as the best writer in the office--except slow and meticulous. She got the "brain surgery" reports ... while being able to do lots of quick, stupid "cookie cutter" reports was where the real money was to be made. No good deed goes unpunished.

Looking over that last post ... the things I taught her to do are habits that provided a lot of the motivation for her to have created the secret item that I now hold that could destroy her career. In some way, I *created* the need that she had to make the "item" (odd that she now seems to have forgotten it--does she think she still has it? Is she afraid to ask whether *I* have it? Or does she simply trust that I wouldn't use it against her?--this last would be too much, she doesn't trust *anybody* like that except perhaps her closest relatives). <P>I also perhaps take a lot of credit for her career; I hope not too much.<P>Is it any wonder that in my darker moments I like to know that I have the power to yank the rug out from under her, depriving her of the fruits of *my* sacrifice?

So you were the parent/teacher, and now she has graduated into real life.<P>One has to marry a near equal.<P>You can't be their teacher or therapist.<P>been there, done that,<BR>that was part of my problem, I taught her<BR>stuff that her parents didn't, in the same vein as my BP IL's taught her confusion.<P>tom<BR>

Tom,<P>My daughter is a straight A student and there are times that I have typed a paper for her. I *DO NOT* write the paper, only type it from her draft. I type a lot faster and we had a keyboard that all the letters were worn off, so it made it difficult for her to hunt and peck .<P>If I notice something that sounds off in her writing, I will call her in and work it through with her and have her change it to what she feels is correct. <P>Just giving you a parental thought on typing papers for kids... <P>Lori <P>

Lori,<P>I appreciate your response, although just because you are a faster typer, doesn't help the child learn to type, and therefore, if you are not around, the child hasn't learned to properly plan the time required to type the report at her speed.<P>This is very important, as in time management skills development, which I lack, not for someone else doing my work but for grossly underestimating the problems I will get into that I don't plan for.<P>My X does alot of things for the children with the excuse that she can do it faster. Is speed constantly the underlying reason for doing something? If so, you life will revolve around how fast something gets accomplished, but not necessarily the quality of the output. I have learned NOT to submit the final product until it is ready, (within a reasonable time) and I don't just do it to get it over with in the fastest possible means.<P>The reason, I learn about processes and improvements by doing something, sitting and reflecting about how to do it better, and then probably redo the project at a next higher level of completeness.<P>So I strive to learn "from the bottom up" everywhere, so that as a manager I have done everything that I ask my subordinates to do.And I can stick up for them, knowing how long they should take on a project.<P>Sorry to disagree, but the faster reason tends to find my X and the kids rushing through tests, etc, and not taking time not rechecking answers, etc, but taking shortcuts, etc for the time savings, which hurts them in the long run.<P>tom<BR>