edited<p>[This message has been edited by Willis (edited July 20, 2000).]

Gosh Willis,<p>You sound more like me than anybody I've read here so far: 15 years, sexually frustrated, taking on hobbies (probably to avoid having an affair!) and reading the books - but she won't.<p>How to deal with a "My way or the highway" spouse? The 64 thousand-dollar question. Does Harley recommend anything for this? I think all I've heard is sonething to the effect of: do all you can to bring your spouse to the intimacy stage, then they'll start to want to meet your needs.<p>Maybe if you (we) make the point that: "if you read the book, you'll be able to help me understand your OWN needs, and how I'm not meting them".<p>No one like to be attacked, or made to feel that they're doing a good job at being a spouse. <p>I, too, would like to know how long I should wait to get my needs met. God knows I'm far from being the perfect man or spouse, but I like to think that I'm "better than average", or at least that I'm aware, concerned, and working on it. <p>It may come down to "Hey, if you can't tell me what your needs are so I can meet them, how will you ever be satisfied with me?"<p>Val

Willis:<p>So. Your wife is not interested in sex or romance, and is unwilling to meet your needs in that area? Well then, she probably won't mind if you go out and find a warm female who IS willing, right? Or maybe she'd rather you just brought home some porn videos, sat alone on the couch with the lights off, and 'handled' things yourself?<p>Ooops...sorry. Never mind all that. It's just that, in reading your post, I heard echoes of my own wife's attitude regarding my need, and it put my brain in 'Bitter Mode'. Ya know, as much as women complain that there's so much stuff we guys don't 'get' (understand), there's one crucial thing that they don't 'get' (some of the ladies here notwithstanding). Our wives have the power to make us incredibly happy, or to make us frustrated beyond their comprehension! I say 'beyond their comprehension' because they don't know what it's like to NEED sex, not just WANT it.<p>If I could somehow slip some testosterone into my wife's morning coffee, she might start to understand. Of course, for her to REALLY understand, I would then have to reject her advances! Geez, I don't think I'm THAT strong!

Willis,<p>I'm kinda at a loss on what to say about cases like this. I look at guys like you and Val and say you've gone above and beyond the call of duty to go without adequate sex this long. I simply could not do it. But then I'm not you.<br>Sex is such a vital need for most men that I find it hard to fathom how a woman can deny them that, knowing how strong that need is and it's lack of fulfillment is one of the easiest ways to drive a man into doing the wrong thing. I have often wondered what I would do if my wife was injured in a manner that would stop her from having sex. That would be rough, but I'd still be obligated. We'd just have to find other manipulations. At least in that case you'd know it was outside the control of both spouses. In your case it's just a refusal. That's hard to take.<br>I'd like to know if you ever get this worked out. It's just one of those things I don't understand.

Willis,<p>I don't have a magic answer either. I suggest that it might help to give Steve Harley a call at Marriage Builders and set up an appointment for this. But an observation:<p>You said:<br>--------------------------------------------<br>She said things were much better during recent weeks until I asked her to consider having sex more than two or three times a year.<br>--------------------------------------------<p>Important information here. Things have been much better for recent weeks. That indicates two things: you've been using lovebusters and not meeting her emotional needs for a long time, and that this "new you" hasn't been around for a long time. I'd suggest that you ask her to fill out the questionnaires and go over them with you: get a firm handle on your lovebusters, and what her needs are.<p>Once you have the plan in place (and it seems like you're getting a handle on it), you need to spend MONTHS with this. You must establish a consistant track record with her in regards to your ability and desire to protect and care for her.<p>Your needs don't figure into the equation yet. When she falls in love with you, she'll probably be much more receptive to filling your needs. Including sex, although that may take additional 'negotiation'.<p>Remember to always follow the policy of Joint Agreement: if you can't mutually come to an enthusiastic decision over something, then you don't do it. <p>To answer question 1, as you continue to work on the "new you" and she sees how it benefits her, she may be willing to start trying some of these techniques. Remember, bringing the books to her and saying "You need this" is a disrespectful judgement: it's something that she's going to need to WANT to do. The best way to influence her is to show how 'easy' and how beneficial the process is.<p>2. You should wait and give this some time. I'd suggest 6-12 months for sure. You can force the issue by such methods as separation, but those are drastic and can have consequences that you can't undo. Remember to give her positive feedback when she DOES meet your needs (even if it's not the BIG 5...). Positive reinforcement is a much more effective tool in this type of situation.

Bruce,<p>I'd love to be sure that I've gone "above and beyond the call", but unless my wife can tell me HOW to meet her needs, (or even what they are) I'm only meeting her needs as I perceive them. <p>If I ask my wife if I'm a "good enough husband" or if "there's anything that I need to de for her that I haven't done" (and I have asked these things on occasion), she tells me "everythings OK". So either she doesn't fully understand her own needs, feels weak making them known, is afraid to ask, or some other situation.<p>See what I'm saying? She thinks she's doing an "adequate" job in the bedroom once a week, missionary, quickie, no ups, no extras. It's only logical that I'm not meeting her needs in some way even though I think I am.<p>IF SHE WON'T READ THE STINKIN' BOOK, HOW WILL WE EVER KNOW???<p>So as Willis points out, she's got to at least "play along" with the program so that we know what her biggest needs are, and meet them. Otherwise we could be wasting time, effort, and money doing the wrong things. Here we are buying flowers, nice dinners, telling her she's good-looking, and sexy, when what she really wants is the leaves raked out of the flower beds more often. See what I mean?<p>Jery McQuire said it best: "Help me to help you, Help ME to help YOU, HELP ME TO HELP YOU!"<p>(maybe applying too much movie logic is a bad thing )<p>The "What if my wife was injured and couldn't have sex" question is an interesting one. There's a huge difference between "can't" and "won't". If she "can't", it's beyond her control, she couldn't if she wanted to. If she can, but "won't", then it's a willful denial of our needs. <p>Often I feel such compassion for my wife because I know (to some degree) that she isn't "fully" able to meet my needs in this department. Possibly because of hormonal changes, possibly because of self-esteem issues, and who knows what other legitimate reasons she may have. <p>It's really hard to be mad at someone that you feel that way about. She needs to "help me to help her".<p>"Ramble-key" unstuck<p>Val<br>

Ooops... previous post re-posted somehow...<p>(Twilight Zone theme) do-do-do-do, do-do-do-do....<br><p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited 01-13-99).]

Ive been absent from the forum for awhile but I see some of the same stuff going on. Does anyone see the problem of unmet sex needs fro men as unique?<p>I think it was K who gave all the text book advise. Can we agree that sex is both a biological and emotional need for a man? Then in that case should we not look at it a little differently? To recommend a guy that has sex 2 times a year to follow some drawn out menu to recovery where he basically ignores this need is preposterous. They do need counseling and in the counseling they need to reach some immediate deal on more sex at the same time they reach a deal on whatever it is he needs to change about himself. The guy recommending putting the need on the back burner fro 6-12 months should do that as a form of fasting in honor of those who are rejected by their spouses. Then he can come back here and quote verbatim from the books on how to handle unmet needs.<p>

Willis,<p>You will probably wait for improvement as long as you can possibly go without it. Just don't let this need cause you to wonder. I'm not saying that you will but many here have fallen under that same fate.<p>I have a question for you all. Is there a difference between planned sex and spontaneous sex? For me my H will only accept spontaneous sex. I can't have planned or thought about having it at all. Well to be honest I think about it all the time. I'm not like your wives. I am the one with the sexual appetite. On his birthday his one request of me was to not try and have sex with him. Go figure. I just wondered if there was much of a difference. Sorry I'm not much help on the other end because I'm where you all are. Haven't always been, this is a new development. Gotta love this rollercoaster we all ride. <p>Steph<p>[This message has been edited by Steph (edited 01-13-99).]

NOT have sex on his birthday?!<p>Steph, now we're sure that your H is the "weird" one in your marriage! <p>Whenever my wife asks what I want for my birthday or Christmas, I just look at her and she says "BESIDES that!". Guess she knows me pretty well!<p><br>Val<p>[This message has been edited by V (edited 01-13-99).]

Steph:<p>Wait a second. For his birthday, your hubby asked you to NOT try and have sex with him?!!<p>(Excuse me, Steph. Please cover your ears.)<p>AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *primal scream*<p>This situation--woefully mis-matched sex drives--has GOT to be a twisted practical joke!!! <p>Maybe we should adopt 'testosterone socialism'. That is, those with excess testosterone should share with those lacking--then maybe we'd all be happy!<p>Lost:<p>K is probably too modest to admit it, but he DID win the 1998 Cold Shower award, and is uniquely qualified to discuss sexual self-denial. Going for 4-6 months or longer without sex ain't no fun at all. But it CAN be done, as long as your hands still work!

Doug,<p>I take it you could conceive of hell as a place of gathering for quadrupal amputees with terminal horniness.<S>

Steph,<p>When you have kids there isn't too much that is spontaneous except passing gas. But yet I can't say we plan it. I know if I'd like to do it that evening so I prepare. I make sure the kids are bathed and in the bed by a particular time. And if I have to help them along to sleepyland with a teaspoon of benadryl I'm certainly not above doing it. My friends that know I do that act shocked when I tell them. Who cares? Kids can block a whole lotta love making. A desparate man takes desparate measures.<br>Let's just say I plan ahead to make sure things are spontaneous. Yea...I like that.

val,<p>Thanks for that. Actually because of that I am considered the weird one for wanting it. <p>Doug,<p>I'm not willing to give up my extra testosterone (and I do have it I've been tested). Are you? LOL <p><br>Bruce,<p>ROFLMAO!!!!! Thanks for the laugh today. Passing gas, REALLY! <p>It's not like I tell him in the morning that we will have sex tonight. When we go to bed I will start to kiss him and scratch his back and he will ask me if I had been thinking about it. I tell him yes, that I have been thinking about it all day and he will say that we can't have it then and roll over and go to sleep. Explain that one to me. He didn't know about it until just then so isn't that spontaneous as far as he is concerned? I just don't know anymore.<p>Steph

Steph,<p>Darned if I understand where your husband is on the sex thing. The kissing and back scratching alone would all engines go in my case.<br>You say you've been tested and have testosterone? I suggest we use you (if you don't mind) to create a serum for women with low sex drives. Val and Doug's spouses can be the first recipients. If it works well I'll take a little for my own wife. I get sex but maybe it will kick her into warp drive. You game?

Steph,<p>Darned if I understand where your husband is on the sex thing. The kissing and back scratching alone would be all engines go in my case.<br>You say you've been tested and have testosterone? I suggest we use you (if you don't mind) to create a serum for women with low sex drives. Val and Doug's spouses can be the first recipients. If it works well I'll take a little for my own wife. I get sex but maybe it will kick her into warp drive. You game?

Man, you guys! I really feel for you, because if my Hubby were to stop having sex with me (other than for physical disability) I'd roll over and die!! I'm serious. I can't imagine not wanting or even needing sex. I still remember vividly the 10 months I was single before I met my husband. I had gotten myself out of a bad relationship and didn't want to jump into another one, (which was my pattern before this) so I didn't date for a while. After less than a month, I thought I was going to keel over from lack of sex!! Well, I guess I got to know myself MUCH better...(LOL)<p>I can understand the need for it, and not just the want. Maybe I have a higher than normal level of testosterone than most women, who knows? But I can't imagine, going for any length of time without it, especially when it's supposed to be READILY AVAILABLE!!! Has any of your wives had any sexual abuse in their pasts???? Sometimes that can cause women to hate sex, or feel that it is dirty or whatever. Or if that is the case, maybe it's too emotionally painful to have sex, because it reminds her of her abuse. Maybe she's never told you...maybe she's never told anyone!!! It could be worth exploring...

Steph,<p>I can't understand your husband's reaction either. If I had to take a wild guess, a stab in the dark( no pun intended), maybe he's thinking that since you've thought about it all day, maybe you weren't thinking of sex with HIM all day? Maybe it's some wierd self-esteem issue. Perhaps he thinks a woman doesn't want it unless a guy gets her in the mood (profoundly) right before the act...knowing then that HE did it. Or maybe he's intimidated since you made the first move? I don't know...I'm just throwing ideas out...<p>(We high T women need to stick together, you know

Actually, Bruce, I didn't know if you knew this or not, but all women have testosterone, and all men have estrogen. But men have far more testosterone, and women have far more estrogen. I don't know the typical ratios for each, however. If you didn't know about the women and testosterone thing, don't worry-I didn't know men had estrogen until last week!! LOL!!! I was reading a medical article about how some doctors are treating post-menopausal women with inhibited sex drive with testosterone to help increase their sex drive. Oh, and something else of interest: I read a related article about a man who had very low T levels, and interestingly, porn, or seeing naked women, did NOTHING for him, but he could be aroused by touch and auditory influence. (More like women typically do). Interesting, huh?

Steph and Tommywife:<p>I think Bruce has hit on a great idea! Developing a serum for wives with low sex drive! Given the latest advances in genetic engineering, a few of your cells could be cultured and transformed into a treatment for our wives that would be the answer to our prayers!<p>PLEASE HELP US! Contact your nearest biomedical research lab today! I'm sure they have plenty of scientists who'd love to get in your genes!<p>(Sorry, I couldn't resist!)