OK....STBX says yesterday that he has some things of mine that he took on accident.. No problem.. I said bring them by.. He wants me to drive somewhere and meet him.. I said.. I didn't remove them... I have to work, why should I have to drive all over down to get something that should have never been taken. He starts yelling.. I tell him to stop, calm down and get over it. (Probably not the most calming thing to say.. but hey..) Anyway.. I am still waiting on the first draft of the divorce papers that were supposed to be ready two weeks ago.. Still no go.. I told him that I just want this to be over with, I didn't want it. He made the choice.. He doesn't get why I am in such a hurry. He is living with another woman, lied to me about it. Led me on to believe there was still a chance (while he was living with her and still coming to see me when I was in town..) and wonders WHY??? I am ready for all of this to be over with??? Now, HE GETS ANGRY WITH ME??!! I told him that I wasn't yelling at him and he is the one who did all of this *^$* to me and I just wanted out. No more, no less. Why is he the angry one? Because he got caught? Because he got himself into this mess?? Geez... someone out there explain this???? <P>arm6868@yahoo.com

I have no idea why he is acting this way or why he appears to be angry. Some people can just be jerks sometimes. <P>I think you are justified to expect him to bring your things back to you. He took them by mistake and he should be thoughtful enough to bring them back. He should at least be understanding to this fact and not get angry when you refuse to meet him to get this stuff back.<P>I think you did the right thing.

There is no explanation to the thought processes of WS's. Sometimes they can seem downright unbelievable. Perhaps he is wanting you to slow down in hopes of changing your mind. Unless he shows signs of change I wouldn't even think twice.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Right now you feel ready for this to be over. But are you? It seems like you had a long history--both good and bad. His leaving and shacking up with someone else was not a contented person suddenly suffering a brain tumor (and *if* it is--how can you be angry at them?).<P>Recognizing that he's feeling conflict now that he's with this other person, you will better be able to understand his contradictory behavior. What will *you* do about it? That depends on whether you will decide you want the marriage or not. If you do want it--Plan A until you tire, followed by Plan B. <P>Now let's think about these items. They can't have been such a big deal to you, or you would have been chasing them before. *He* either wants to be rid of them as reminders, wants some small connection with you, or just has a sense of propriety about property. You will have to decide which you believe. <P>He doesn't want to meet you on your turf, doesn't want you coming to his turf, so he's trying to meet in the middle. You simply don't want to make anything any easier for him. Fine. But admit that to yourself, decide whether it's something you believe you should be doing, and perhaps change your actions accordingly. It's all so very painful. Knowing what you *really* believe and want and need doesn't make it less painful, but pain that you understand is easier to take than pain that you don't understand.

Because he got caught? <BR><B> Yes </B><P>Because he got himself into this mess?? <P><B> Yes </B><P><BR>How do you think you would feel if you realized that everything you thought was good was turned upside down, realizing you have a human weakness? its the realization of the loss of control, what you lost, what is not greener, etc. Its the fog!<P>believe me, fog can make people say the darndest sayings!<P>its anger over the difficulty of accepting mature love, realizing that one has lost the original intimacy that caused the marriage in the first place, which is far more short term stimulating, and than the long term lasting mature love on a deeper level.<P>Sometimes I think that most (not all) WS don't understand mature love, and don't think or feel that deeply, to realize that midlife in itself produces different stresses emotionally and physically that we are ever led to understand.<P>tom<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited January 18, 2001).]

Blindsided,<P>Somebody is bs ing the public! Sounds like he wanted that contact with you again for some reason. If he really wanted to get the stuff back to you without a confrontation, it is real easy to just box it up and put it in the mail. No big deal. <P>Is there any chance he wants to break your stones because you had the locks changed? Does he still want you to jump through his hoops if you want your stuff back? Is he in some crazy way still testing the waters to see if he can still reach out to you?<P>Best of Luck,<P>Bumper

Blindsided:<P>My stbx dumped me, took up with Nurse Ratchet two weeks later, and is still incredibly angry with me over it. HUH?<P>Are you possibly looking for logic in the fog? I don't think you could even find Mt. Rushmore in that fog, so don't bother looking for logic...<P><BR>(((((((blindsided))))))))<P>Lisa

Hi Blindsided,<P>I can relate to EVERYTHING that you said. And what everyone posted back to you. What sisyphus said is so true. You need to sort out what you want, and to put your pride aside. Don't for one minute think that I am saying you are wrong. I'm not. But I can see so clearly what I did wrong, and it drove him even further away when I think he was reaching out to me.<P>When I look back at my situation, I can see so clearly times when he was reaching out to me. But my stupid stubborn pride made me play 'games' with him. By games, I mean that I wanted to hear him say the things I needed to hear, before I would even contemplate meeting him halfway. If only I had known back then that if I had met him halfway first, it may not have ended up the way it has. Ie, divorce.<BR>I had the feelings of HE did all this, HE can come back to me. He can come crawling back to me. (This is the most honest I have ever been about myself where all this is concerned) I think in his own way, that is exactly what he was trying to do. <P>He wouldn't sign the divorce papers that I did myself - via the kit. So I got a solicitor.<P>He wouldn't respond to my solicitors letters. So we filed court documents which made him.<P>He STILL has not told me/us his solicitors name. Claims he can't remember it. I gave him a ph. book the other night, and he still couldn't find them.........<P>Still has boxes of my stuff, that he says he will bring over. He doesn't.<P>I have learnt my lesson. I'm not pushing him for anything at all. Including his solicitors name. I saw my solicitor yesterday about final settlement (we have one more thing to sort out) and told her not to file papers with the court. I want her to send a letter to him, outlining how she has arrived at the figure, which will hopefully sort it all out. Without the need for 2 lots of solicitors being involved. Gee, only my costs!!!!!!!!!<P>He also wants to babysit the kids at my house, instead of his. Why on earth would he want to be here, where she (GF#5) obviously can't come, instead of his own house where she would be welcome. Just another of those confusing 'signs' that make you think, and think, and think.<P>As far as your H having your things and wanting to meet somewhere neutral to return them, maybe suggest a coffee shop. Hint hint.<BR>Make it ok for him to meet you, and if he doesn't want to talk about anything, give him your best smile, maybe a kiss on the cheek and send him on his 'merry' way. You can bet your bottom dollar is't not merry at all.<P>My only thought about all this is "Don't do what I did". Don't wait for him to say those things that you need to hear. They can't do it. You probably never will hear those things first. They need to hear things from you first, to make them feel safe to come home.<BR>Sucks, doesn't it, but that seems to be the way it is.<BR>You need to make it safe for him to meet you halfway.<BR>All this is said as if you want him and your marriage back. If not, that's fine, but deepdown if you do, don't do what I did. I often think I should write a book about everything I did wrong. And I could write a book..........<P>hoping it all works out the way you want it to.<P>big hugs for you<P>Jo

Update... Well H came over yesterday with the things and the divorce papers for me to look over.. Everything is in order.. I will have a notary sign them today and not really sure what to do afterwards. The meeting ending up being pretty emotional.. He wouldn't come in the house because he doesn't feel comfortable since he has been caught in his game (no better word for it). I told him that I always loved him and still do. That I wished for my own sake that I could stop loving him so that I could get on with my life a little better. I asked him why he was so angry with me? Never really got an answer. I asked him if he was happy and what he wanted/expected from me. He was my best friend and someday I would at least like to be friends again, but it would take time for me to trust him again and NO MORE LIES. Bottom line... I told him that I was still here for the time being. I couldn't take him back tomorrow, but if he ever "found himself" again then I would consider it. He said that he still thought of me often and even dreamed about me sometimes. We both ended up kinda teary. He hugged me, started crying and left.. As he left, I told him that I would have the papers signed and notorized and he could get them whenever he was ready or ??? Basically I left the door open. <BR>Now, today I am a little confused. I do want a divorce just because I need the closure as long as he is living with her and acting like a "family". I have no "hopes" for any future really with us, but how do any of you feel out there about life with the ex after divorce? I don't plan on waiting for him, but at the same time I am having a hard time slamming the door on him also... Any thoughts?

Blindsided,<P>I have those thoughts every single day. What would I do if he said he wanted to come back? <BR>I think if I'm honest it was my pride and my stupid stubborness that made me divorce him. Yes I did want closure from all this, and yes I got a semblance of that. But I think now I will be left wondering about what could have been. Especially when he acts as if there could be 'something' there, or says things that he then won't quantify. Or gets teary - which seems to happen quite often.<P>I guess the real justification for the divorce is that although he was saying one thing, and seemingly doing another, he still wouldn't give up his bachelor lifestyle, or gf #5. They seem to be going stronger than ever. Why would I hang on. a person has to move on at some stage. Don't they???????<P>god, the questions I have asked, that no-one has the answers for.<P>All I can say is this. Wait for him to file. don't push. If you want closure, and who understands THAT more than us, try and find some other way of doing that. But if your H is anything like mine, filing for divorce only opened the gates to let him out. (I think I read that exact same thing here somewhere).<P>who knows what these people think. I honestly think that no matter what my ex-h feels, the road back to me and his family is too hard for him to travel. So he chooses a path of lesser resistence. That's his choice. He needs to do that.<P>Your h needs to do what he needs to do. But don't forget to take care of you too. that is more important at this stage. YOU.<P>keep talking, we're so similar.<P>love and hugs<P>Jo<BR>

B123,<P>You have to keep in mind where you are posting! you are posting and reading a board that is stands for marriage, and works very hard at trying to repair broken marriages. There are success stories here, and one of the themes to success here is to practice patient, Plan A and grow.<P>These are the themes and the goals here, and plan a doesn't give up hope, but continues to move towards reconciliation. So this is influencing your thought process, and hindering your ability to heal by keeping you thinking about reconciliation.<P>However, I firmly believe that once the papers are final, unless there is a unbelievably compelling reason to go back, one should take what is learned, and try to put it to good use finding an even better relationship. That is first after getting yourself healed and into the best emotional state as possible.<P>Because you will still have him in your life for probably the rest of your life, good or bad! And sometimes, nice guys finish last, in lots of respects, we get walked on, and after awhile, we realize we are better than that, and what we had was not what we really want. (most times, not all, Nellie)<P>stay positive about yourself, and keep on healing, and coming to the understanding and accepting reality.<P>tom<BR>

Thanks again guys for all the words of wisdom. I seem to fluctuate between wanting it over NOW and wanting it to never end at the same time... Oh well.. part of healing I guess. The tears flow much less often and I am starting to enjoy life again, so I know that I will be ok again. <P>Bonnet- Funny you hit the nail on the head with the comment about actions vs. words. He as much as said that yesterday.. He isn't able to deal with himself and seems to be so ashamed of what he has done that I really don't believe he would ever come back. Right now it is easier to live with someone and get the immediate "comfort" than to work on something that was "real".. I don't see him leaving her as long as things are "good". I really think that eventually he/she will move on to someone else. In one sense I hope that I will be strong enough to follow my heart if things do change and not let my pride get in the way, but I honestly can't say that I would ever be able to trust him again. If it were only another woman that would be one thing, but all of the other lies I don't know if he would be able to live with me and my distrust. It would take so long for me to be able to believe him.. It is so hard to just give up on all of our dreams though. <P>

Hi blindsided,<P>I think it's normal to fluctuate. I'm just now starting to think that I want this to be over. I know in my heart that evrything could be worked out, but for whatever reason, there is no desire on her part to work on "us". I've made it clear the the door is still open, but I have to move on. It's time.<P>That being said, there is no reason that I can see for him to be angry, except that maybe the fog is lifting a little bit and it's not that perfect situation he has been seeing. Now is the time for you to show your true self and not allow yourself to be dragged down by his behavior.<P>It is very difficult, but if you have any hope of him ever wanting to come back and try, you have to show him someone he would want to come back to.<P>And if it does end, try to part amicably and move on with your life. A little wounded, for sure, but also wiser.<P>Take care...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited January 19, 2001).]

Why the anger from your (stb)x? It's called <I>projective identification</I>. It's how he copes with his guilt.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B>Why the anger from your (stb)x? It's called <I>projective identification</I>. It's how he copes with his guilt.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>gdp: Please elaborate...<P>Lisa<P>

Well, I can't do the concept justice, since I don't really understand it very well myself, and it doesn't seem to get consistent usage.<P><I><B>Projection</B></I> is one of the things that can happen when you have difficulty "owning" your feelings. You take the "bad" feelings about yourself and assign them to someone else. (You "reject" those feelings.) So, for example, when my wife declared that she did not want to talk to me because she didn't want to hear again from me that she could not make it on her own, she was projecting her own self-doubt onto me. (There is no other possible explanation, since I have always had far more confidence in her than she has had in herself.)<P><I><B>Projective identification</B></I> is a bit more complicated. There you not only project your rejected feelings onto someone else (the projectee), but the projectee actually becomes (in your own mind) the part of yourself you want to reject. The projectee may actually cease to be a person in his/her own right, becoming merely a container or personification of your rejected feelings. Further, you attempt to elicit the rejected feelings from the projectee.<P>For example, if I am feeling guilty and angry with myself but I don't want to admit it, I can displace my guilt onto you and get angry with you instead. <I>You</I> are the guilty part of myself. And if my expression of anger manages to provoke guilt or anger in you, so much the better. Then I can tell myself "See, it's <I>your</I> fault, not <I>mine</I>; and it's not <I>me</I> that's angry, it's <I>you</I>."<P>If that sounds confusing, then I have successfully communicated my (lack of) understanding of this concept.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited January 19, 2001).]

GDP - I saw this concept played out with my ex. He had made a mess of his career at home, knew it but could not own up to it. Got a new job out-of-state, saw a chance at starting over again but included me in part of his own failure at home. Therefore it was an easy decision on his part to start a new life and a new job with a new wife. <P>What happens when he most likely will fail at this new job also? Will he still blame me for this?<P>Wondering,<BR>Barrington

Barrington- <BR> I often wonder that same question... I guess it is easier to blame someone else for your shortcomings... I am very big on taking responsibility for your own actions. I have made many mistakes, but ultimately they were my choices... I hope that one day he too will realize that HE made choices and everything that happened had to do with him as well. At first I made it easy on him and took all of the "blame", then I woke up and realized that it was both of us... He still wants to blame me and I let him, and I let him but I do know the truth...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barrington:<BR><B>What happens when he most likely will fail at this new job also? Will he still blame me for this?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope that question is rhetorical, because I sure don't have the answer.<P>The book that really set me on the path of understanding what had happened to my wife and our marriage was Madeline Bennett's <I>Sudden Endings</I> (which is out of print). The book is flawed, but it introduced enough relevant concepts to get me on the right track.<P>Unfortunately, it seems that sometimes a WS escalates the blame. Once projective identification is established, to give it up would require the WS to reclaim the rejected part(s) of himself/herself. Thus, the WS must maintain some connection to the BS, and this may take the form of increasing antagonism.<P>It is not even unusual for the BS to be accused of doing things that were actually done by someone else entirely - for example, by one of the WS's parents. The parental relationship may be a source of internal conflict for the WS, but the BS is fair game, having ceased to be a real person with an independent existence.<P>As bizarre as all this sounds, it is the only explanation I have yet found for my wife's bizarre actions and attitudes. The paradigm fits perfectly.<P>But I still have hope that the fog will lift. It <I>does</I> happen sometimes. And the projective schema my wife has developed is so diametrically opposed to the actual history of our relationship that I can't imagine how she could sustain it indefinitely.<BR>