Cats and Dogs, Buckets, whatever. Of all the news to receive at a time like this. I went to church last night, trying my best to let go of some of the resentment that I harbor constantly. As the sermon is winding down my pastor mentions that he may be leaving our church within the next few months if the Lord does not move on his heart. He said he feels like he has done the best for the congregation that he can and that it may be time for a new pastor. It seems as though when things get comfy and you feel real close to someone something happens. This sucks. I understand that he must do what the Lord puts on him to do just as we all must, but I will be praying that if it's in the Lord's will for him to stay then put it in his heart.<P>So I go home (I'm staying back at my house in a separate room) and my W asks me where I've been. I tell her that I've been at church and she blasts me that I could have let her know. I told her that she was correct and I should have but that she has to get used to me doing things without her "consent" because after she leaves she won't be able to "keep track" of me all the time. She said "What if I don't want to leave?" I told her that once we are divorced she will have to. Her response? "What if I don't want a divorce?" WHAT!!!??? I stood there with I'm sure the dumbest look in the world on my face. All I could mumble was that a divorce was inevitable.<P>So now it crumbles around me from all sides. Confusion reigns and my mind is mush. I meet with my attorney tomorrow to get "the ball rolling" I am not looking forward to this.<P>Thanks for your time, any opinions appreciated.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Wow, what a confused woman!!! I guess that I would sit down and try to talk to her about where your marriage is going. I mean, she either wants it or doesn't. You have been very patient during all of this. <BR>Have you counseled with anyone on this?? And, how do you feel about her right now?? if the door were to open again, would you we willing to try?? Again?? <BR>My only advice is think long and clear about divorce. It is difficult and heartwrenching for all. If there is any chance of restoring your marriage, make sure you have exhausted every possibility of making it work. If you have any doubts, put the D on hold!!!<P>------------------<BR>Susan

I do have doubts, but I feel that I need the divorce to seperate my "self" from her. To sheild myself persay. I want it to be known to her and myself that if this continues then she's out. What I mean by that is with a divorce I almost feel as if I can start over. If she wants to try again then it should be from the beginning. I can't try again with so much to lose. If I "start over" then I have nothing to lose.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Moyers:<BR><B>What I mean by that is with a divorce I almost feel as if I can start over. If she wants to try again then it should be from the beginning.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I just want to point out that I see this thinking a lot. My XW did it. The person to whom this is done feels so abandoned, angry and bitter that it's a *long* time (usually too long) before they would approach the reconciliation. Sometimes, a program like <I>Retrouvaille</I> can help. But don't expect thanks for the course you're pursuing now. You are scorching the earth, whether you realize it or not.<BR>

Paul:<P>When she said "What if I don't want a divorce?", then you probably should have given her the list of things she needs to do to demonstrate her sincerity.<P>That's probably a pretty damn long list too...<P>I understand how hurt you are, but if you're confused, you're probably not yet ready for divorce. I'd suggest a separation (or an intensive attempt at reconciliation) as a first step prior. I know that you're also concerned with your rights as a father---and sometimes those are in direct conflict with trying to save a marriage.<P>

Sisyphus: I do see your point, but add to that the fact that this is the FOURTH time my W has cheated on me in our 8 years together and the last two were serious and within 18 months of each other. Straw that broke the camel's back?<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

K: You snuck in. I did mention a few things, she just stared at me. None of them have been done. The doubts I have are both whether I want to be without her and whether I could ever trust her again, ever love her like I used to without the resentment. The kids are of major concern K. You are certainly one to know my position. She is worried that if we part then I will no longer love our youngest son. Yes, I have explained my love for him is completely seperate from my love and feelings for her. He did nothing to deserve any of this and I will not do anything to harm him.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Moyers:<BR><B>Straw that broke the camel's back?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why don't you talk to that (W)Minister of yours? <P>I've found that *resentment* always clouds clear thinking. Probably the #1 source of viewing others in a distorted light. Saw it in my XW, discovered it in myself as she left and afterward. <P>You want to *resent* her for taking something that you don't allow yourself, especially because it deprived you of something you feel is *your due*. <P>I don't know your pain. This never happened to me. But I know that when we meet another's failure to meet our expectations with anger and resentment, there is no opportunity for either of us to grow.<P>I don't expect you to laugh this off. No one does. But the anger and resentment *can* be diffused if you both get enough help. Make sure that whatever you do is *your* decision, not a decision born of anger and resentment.

Paul,<P>My guess is that today, you could love her the way you used to. BUT, she would have to go to extraordinary efforts to rebuild the trust, and to learn the appropriate marital behaviors to make this marriage work.<P>If she's unwilling to do so, I would encourage you to Plan B for a year (to let it sink in for her), before divorcing. But I certainly can understand your hesitation with this---I remember how hurt I was when my wife's affair restarted, and that was only after a month or so of the first "ending". I try to think of how I would feel if I discovered her having an affair today---I'm pretty sure I wouldn't feel a whole lot like Plan B'ing, either.<P>But then I'd call Steve Harley, and he'd tell me to "let the dust settle", and then I'd be in Plan B in a few weeks...<P>I really don't know what to say, Paul. I think it's terrific that you're reassuring her that you won't walk out on your youngest. But if she's not willing to work on anything, I'd really ask her to leave the house. Soon.

Paul,<P>IMHO, same house separation does not allow you the emotional distance to figure out what you really want or don't want.<P>You are bombarded daily with the job of husband and father, while also being bombarded daily with reminders of multiple infidelities by her unremorseful (?) presence in your home.<P>If you and she want to work it out - I think you could do better by having a breather from close contact EXCEPT when you meet up at a marriage counselors office.<P>Give yourself a chance to get some emotional perspective, give her a chance to get some counseling to figure out why she repeatedly strays (it really is her emotionally-messed-up issue there) and give you both a chance to work productively in the counselors office while having some down time away from it.<P>Set a date in the not-so-distant future to reevaluate the situation. If progress is being made, great, and consider your options then. If progress is not being made, well, she's out of the house and you're no worse off than you are right now.<P>Just my two cents!<P>Lisa

Paul,<P>I can understand what you are going through, I had about 5-6 attempted reconciliations(at least on my part) during my x's affair and I finally could take no more.<P>I agree with K in trying for the separation and asking her to leave. I am not sure what to tell you if she says no. I guess you can leave but then what about your child?<P>In the book "Rebuilding When Your Relationship Ends" by Dr. Bruce Fisher, there is information on a "healing separation" including a contract between the 2 parties. <P>The rest of the book deals with working through the emotions of a breakup/divorce.<P>God Bless,<P>Bob

Hi Paul,<P>I'm so sorry about all this. I have no words of wisdom for you, however, I do understand the 'cleaning the slate' reason for divorce. I did exactly that.<BR>I don't regret it, but I think I will be left wondering forever. I did absolutely everything wrong, and in the wrong order!!!<BR>My rationale for the divorce was that as he was making no attempt with me, just moving on with a succession of different women then divorce was best. But throw in his mixed signals, and things that he said and did that demonstrated that he still cared,<BR>MASS CONFUSION......<P>I think I need to counsel with Sisyphus. Everything he says is what I should have done/said/acted on.<P>If she has asked the question, ie, "what if I don't want a divorce", do something now. Can you see or speak with Dr Harley.?<BR>Don't push her unless it is really what YOU want. I learnt from experience that pushing does not work at all. Even gentle pushing done with love. It's almost an ultimatum. and ultimatums NEVER work out in our favour.......<P>Paul, all the best and I hope you can arrive at some solution soon. For your own peace of mind.<P>thinking of you<P>Jo

Paul,<P>I did a little homework and I see what has happened in your life and in your marriage. This last one was the heart-killer, wasn't it? Well, first let me say that I am proud of the effort you put in throughout all these affairs--boy you sure kept trying. Second, let me say that I understand what you mean when you say that you do not want a divorce, but it is unreasonable to stay with a woman who keeps cheating and who won't make the effort to change. If it were up to you, you would dance in the aisles if only she would do the work to rebuild, right?<P>Paul, this does suck. I have to mostly agree with K's thoughts. You have come a long way, and I think you know what you need at this point for there to be healing. If you have given her this list and it's fairly clear to her what she needs to do, and if she is unwilling to do them, I'd say Plan B. Don't jump straight into a divorce, but have no contact until she is willing to work with you on rebuilding this marriage. <P>I understand that your youngest is not your biological child, but is you are still his father, right? Is this a secret between you and your W, or does your son know it too? Paul, whether or not he has your DNA, he is your son, so I wouldn't even get bogged down in that whole arguement right now. It's probably a diversion anyway. He's your son, so keep on feeling and acting the same.<P>You'll be in my prayers tonight,<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Thanks everyone. I meet with my attorney today at 4pm. It's my first visit so it's just the consultation visit and still in the very early stages. Perhaps after I meet with the attorney things will be clearer.<P>I don't want to drag this post out too long so I'm responding to everyone together. K, yes I could still love her, but it would be very hard to ever trust her again. No steps have been made on her part that I can see. Same house seperation doesn't allow the emotional distance needed I agree. She walks around acting as if everything is hunkey dorey. Wants a kiss good-bye in the morning, asks why I'm late in the evening, etc.<P>I don't know how to ask her to leave. I can't legally make her leave. Of course she would say she has no place to go. She would demand to take the kids with her therefore disrupting their lives. I feel like I'm in a no win situation. So what am I to do. Not ideal situations, but what am I really supposed to do?<P>Thanks for the advice everyone, really.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Moyers:<BR><B>I don't know how to ask her to leave. I can't legally make her leave. Of course she would say she has no place to go. She would demand to take the kids with her therefore disrupting their lives. I feel like I'm in a no win situation. So what am I to do. Not ideal situations, but what am I really supposed to do?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"...forgive those who have trespassed against us" Hard to do the first time. Near-impossible the fourth. You don't have to let your kids grow up exposed to her shenanigans, but the forgiving part is an aspirational goal of your religion.<P>The moment she *stops* doing wrong, you should be ready to forgive--and I'm not sure it's for us to judge their level of repentance. I didn't make this stuff up ... it's been written down for nearly 2,000 years. Lordy, it's really hard, and sometimes seems just plain crazy, but there it is in black and white.

Paul, you're getting a ton of really good advice here, and I don't have too much to add other than to urge you to consider the advice very seriously.<P>I <I>do</I> have a couple of additional points, though...<P>First, love and trust don't really have much to do with each other. You can love someone you don't trust, and you can trust someone you don't love. It would be foolish of you to trust your wife, but that doesn't mean you can't love her. However, to love her, you're going to need to figure out how to get rid of the resentment. And to do that, I suspect you're really going to have to get out of the same house.<P>My other point is that divorce resolves absolutely nothing except for legal and financial entanglements. Although it might give you a temporary feeling of relief, in the long run it will not actually do anything for you emotionally. If you want to "start over", then figure out what it is you <I>really</I> need to do to start over. Cutting off most interaction except for counseling, and working up a plan for rebuilding, are excellent suggestions.<BR>