In past 6 weeks I found out my wife was not happy and she wanted a divorce. I tried hard to get her to work on saving it one time but she said no. So I gave in and I signed the papers on friday my wife moved half of her belongings to an apt. Monday. As of Thursday, I had not seen nor spoken to her since last Friday morning.<P>When I got home from work yesterday my STBX was home getting a few more things. She knew that I would be there and it is as if she hung around until I got home. While she was there she dusted the house and made my bed. As she was leaving she got upset and said that I was forcing her to move into an apartment. I told her that she left me and her moving out is a result of the divorce she wanted.<P>At 10:30 she called and apologized for getting upset and started telling me how hard it was to be in an apartment. She said that she missed her home and hated the apartment. But never did she say that she missed me???<P>Do you really think that she is covering up feelings of regret for getting a divorce with me so quickly but cant admit that???<P>It is hard for me to believe that the house is so important to her and that Im not.

Don't focus on what you didn't hear that you wanted to hear. Focus instead on what you've been given that you can use. The key is to *use* it without seeming to. And it's really easy to be too ham-handed about this; crossing the line from attraction to traction.<P>Now, here's where the psychology comes in. You can do something to help yourself, but it will seem counterintuitive. Is there a place where you can gather together her remaining belongings with obvious care that they're not damaged, endangered or in disarray? Then do it. <P>The next time she's over, that ought to cause a scene ... emotional for you both. Your script goes something like this: "I just wanted to make it easier for you to pick this stuff up, but when I saw how the house was without any of you in it, it made me very sad. I don't have any right to ask this and I am so afraid you will say no, so don't give me an answer now ... I just want you to know that if you want to try any kind of a workshop or counseling program with me, I'm also willing." Since this is Harley's board, you might look at what he can do for you first, then look second at any face-to-face alternatives in your area. Have something in your hip pocket. Say "I don't expect this to work, but I *want* this to work. But I also know that you may need time; so I'm willing to wait for you to say yes." Then, continue to live *your* life, and get some help on your own to deal with the emotional quagmire.

Thank you for your comment. She is coming back by Monday to pickup a few more things. I told her thursday afternoon that I could get a few boxes from work for her use.<P>Taking your advice I am going to box up a good bit of her belongings this weekend and stack them in a spare bedroom and try the to ask her if she would like to work on saving our relationship. (I will make sure she doesn't give me an answer right then)<P>I really do appreciate your advice you seem to always have the right words to say.

have hope,<P>I just wanted to briefly comment on your wife's words... Since someone who is in "the fog" does not speak their mind and their true feelings, you need to look beyond just the "words" they use. To me your wife was telling you that she is very confused and thinks she may have made a mistake. But she knows how much she has already hurt you and I believe that she may be afraid to really open up to you for two reasons: First is the pride factor. Someone who makes this big of a decision I feel has a hard time admitting to themselves that it may have been a mistake (human nature). The second reason is probably fear - fear that if she does admit she made a mistake, you may not want to give her another chance, even though you may have said you would do just that.<P>Remember WS's are not always thinking straight and their logic sometimes becomes warped around the reality they are trying to build. Not to make your situation sound trite, but try making a game out of it - when your wife is telling you things like missing the house, try really listening to how she is saying those words instead of the exact words she is using.<P>So often the WS rushes into a divorce thinking that the D will solve everything, only to realize that they may have rushed into the biggest mistake of their life.<P>My prayers are with you. Be Strong.<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Mike,<P>well said. . . .<P><BR>Have hope,<P>let me add to Mike's thread.<P>One of the causes of the inability to express true feelings may be the perceived lack of SAFETY in the environment to open up. That's where you and your personality and responses come in. how you deal with anger.<P>The lack of safety perception may be real or imagined. Meaning, if I admitted to an affair right now, she would have held it over my head for years. Now that she had an affair, she could not believe that I would not hold it over her head for years. Therefore, because she could not provide a safe environment for me, she assumes I can't provide a safe environment for the same issue.<P>When in reality, I can empathize with her feelings of affairs as an addiction. And told her we could get through this, ie, admitting my part in the environment that led to it, but she could not make the leap in her mind.<P>So this marriage crises is really the biggest mind game one can play, or have played on them.<P>tom

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>One of the causes of the inability to express true feelings may be the perceived lack of SAFETY in the environment to open up. That's where you and your personality and responses come in. how you deal with anger.<P>The lack of safety perception may be real or imagined. Meaning, if I admitted to an affair right now, she would have held it over my head for years. Now that she had an affair, she could not believe that I would not hold it over her head for years. Therefore, because she could not provide a safe environment for me, she assumes I can't provide a safe environment for the same issue.<P>When in reality, I can empathize with her feelings of affairs as an addiction. And told her we could get through this, ie, admitting my part in the environment that led to it, but she could not make the leap in her mind.<P>So this marriage crises is really the biggest mind game one can play, or have played on them.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That reads a lot like "double bind" thinking. <A HREF="http://www.well.com/user/bbear/double_bind.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.well.com/user/bbear/double_bind.html</A> <A HREF="http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASC/DOUBLE_BIND.html" TARGET=_blank>http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASC/DOUBLE_BIND.html</A> <P>The person won't express a feeling, because they feel like they will get a contradictory message back (soothing words but hostile body language) and that if they question that message they will get "flamed". Now, the BS may be a "flamethrower" (won't say "flamer" here ), or not. It may be that if the WS's family of origin was bad enough, a single incident of flaming is enough to throw a block in front of future straightforward communication. Or perhaps throw the gates open. The point is: if what you're doing hasn't been working, try something else. <P>Are WS's "borderline" regardless of any provocations that made them leave? Not necessarily; but perhap far more often than anyone realizes.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 19, 2001).]

Sisyphus<P>I am taking your advice today. Over the weekend I boxed almost all of my STBX's belongings very neatly and orderly. She is coming by tonite around 9:30 and she has no idea that I was boxing up her stuff. I am going to make one LAST request for her to try to work this out. I am going to stress that she not give me an answer tonite but to think about.<P>Thank you for your suggestion, maybe this will work. If this doesnt work I really feel that I did all that I could do......<BR>

Sisyphus,<P>Interesting links, and yes, they apply, but I believe it is both learned and hereditary, based upon certain brain development genetics. I other words, suppose your brain does not get the final developmental growth which occurs from age 18-24 typically. That growth is characterized by transition from black and white thinking to multi colored thinking, ie, more than one reason and/or outcome.<P>One is then left with a brain of a teenager, trying to cope with adult life. It works for a while, then it doens't work, seeking hedonism or rebellion, the normal struggle of a teenager.<P>I see that she is doing to her kids what her parent's did to her, and she has fought my attempts to foster the kid's independence, and growth.<P>She has told me on numerous occasions that she does not want the kids to grow up. She does not want them to go to overnight camp, etc.<P>It is the BPD that I didn't understand, and figured was environmental, but really is not.<BR>Yes, I contributed to her escapism, but I was doing the best I could to tell her that the problem was serious. She told me that she could not hear anything but the end. even when I rephrased it because I saw her taking it the wrong way, etc.<P>I made one, very big initial mistake, I didn't trust myself enough to validate the feelings that the relationship was not right in the beginning. I remember the flawed logic as if it were yesterday.<P>tom<p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited January 22, 2001).]