Dear LS,<P>From a "junior betrayed"…What Madelyn has said hits the nail on the head. Its an easy to follow "Marriage Quality Control Check List". It is exactly the list of actions that my W an I followed for many years until I was hit my health problems. Then I unchecked every thing on the list. I am not making excuses for my W's affair. She made bad choices but so did I. <P>It would be great if we could separate the words betrayed and betrayer. I feel that no matter which spouse had the affair they are both betrayer and betrayed. It takes two to make the marriage. It takes two to sustain the marriage and it takes two to screw it up and bring us to the Board. I think that part of the recovery is to get by and over the labels. We must not hang a label on every action to pigeonhole it in a Betrayed or Betrayer box. <P>I have tried in my mind to equate the magnitude of the end result of both our actions. Because of my depression I unchecked the QC list one by one over a short period of time and the end result was the affair. What the depression caused me to do within our marriage was cruel, non-feeling selfish and destructive. <P>My wife tried to maintain her QC list and was not receiving the correct husband response and support. So she began un-checking her list as well and the end result was the affair. What she did within our marriage was cruel, non-feeling-selfish and destructive. <P>Maintaining the list is a full time job and all of us on this board have overlooked how important these simple measures are. Everyone hates the QC Manager. It is the lowest job in the food chain except for maybe the ticket-taker at the foot of the ski lift.<P>So you say there is no way that depression and affair are on the same level. The end result was the same. Wasn't it? PAIN! Sure it would be easy to say that I had no control over my depression and she did have control over the affair. But that is not so. For two years I knew I was depressed and should seek professional help. I blew it off. So for two years I was a bone head and let my marriage slide cause I was depressed. My W tried and tried to get me to a shrink. I blew it off with outbursts you cannot imagine. This April I hit my low point and I knew I was in serious trouble mentally. Suicide entered the picture. But I still ignored getting help. I became THE authority on all things. I was non-communitive, mean, nasty, detached, dirty and in general just a hog. And she was reduced to being the maid at our house. By this time my W had her foot out the door and was with a friend that took advantage of the situation and gave her what she needed. Hell why hang around here and try to live with the troll under the bridge. I can sneak around the corner and have some fun for a little while. <P>The affair came to light in July and I finally got some professional help. The frickin' light FINALLY came on! The depression is under control and I feel as good as I have felt in several years. We are seeing a counselor and we are working on our problems and we are having some fun again. I had forgotten how that would feel. <P>My wife has accepted her potion of the blame and the guilt and I have mine. It will take time and we shall never make up for the two years we lost being truly husband and wife. Things will go sour with two years of neglect. Bu the sour items can be replaced with fresh ones in a short period of time and that is what we are working on. <P>I wish you all the best in resolving your difficulties but we have to remember that we all have to accept some of the blame. We are all contributing factors in whatever went wrong. and none of us can afford to be sanctimonious is resolving an affair and all that an affair encompasses. <P>Be well!<BR>Bob D.<BR>Sunny Florida <BR>

Sheba,<P>Talk to a therapist who (successfully) deals with communication skills (and conflict-avoidance). <P>I didn't do so well last night with my wife in this area, so I'm hesitant to tell you "how" to do it right. I can illustrate how not to do it though... (d'oh!)

Wow, good thread!<P>Bob D, thanks for jumping in. I'm another one whose depression wreaked some major damage on the marriage. In my case, I was depressed (undiagnosed at the time), and *I* had the affair. To quote my friend K, "D'oh!"<P>I'd like to make a couple of points here... I am firmly convinced that very few, if any, betrayers "go looking for an affair". Why the heck would *anybody* go LOOKING for that kind of pain & chaos? (& btw, I liked the notion of getting past the 'labels' & the pigeon-holing... that when an affair happens in a marriage, both parties are betrayed and betrayers... I know some will disagree, but hey, *isn't that what makes this place so darned INTERESTING*?? ).<P>As a betrayer, I had no notion whatsoever that I was even "ripe" for an affair. I certainly wasn't "looking". I was not aware that I was capable of such a thing, and I have come to believe that it may be a very fine line, rather than a yawning chasm, that separates betrayers from the rest. I was dimly aware that there were things about our marriage that weren't perfect...I tried, as we all do, to improve the problems... but in all honesty, how many of us *start out* with the skills and knowledge to completely avoid any marital problems or unhappiness? If we were all so wise & self-aware starting out, there would *be* no affairs...<P>I think most betrayers would be the first to agree that they have made incredibly stupid choices. But they were usually made out of ignorance, naivity, and pain, not deliberate, purposeful meanness. People make all kinds of mistakes not because they "want" to, but because they don't know how *not* to...at the time. <P>I feel affairs often blindside the betrayer as much as they do the betrayed, and they can happen for many reasons - but they don't ever happen "for *no* reason". Those reasons can be discovered (and here, counseling can really help), and learned from. Learning about ourselves, our partner, and our unique marriage relationship - with an open mind and without blame - are the keys to moving past an affair and building a great marriage.<P>I agree that the breast-beating blame game - in *either* direction - is not productive (incidentally, I am both betrayer and betrayed, for those who don't know my story). The marriages I see thriving after an affair, including mine, are those in which both partners are willing to accept their spouse's human frailties and past mistakes rather than blaming them endlessly, and *move on*, using the new and hard-won knowledge and skills they've gained to build a new, strong, marriage. (Kind of a mutual "well, *Mistakes Were Made*!" attitude ). <P>Both my H and I are very willing to accept the fact that we've made some godawful choices, and did things that were wrong - wrong, wrong, wrong - but we each have a much better idea NOW of why all this happened than we did THEN - and have chosen not to view each other as evil moral imbeciles. We hurt (ourselves and each other) - we erred (enormously) - we learned - and we forgave. We understand that we each played a part in what went wrong, and we are each playing a huge part now in what is going right. And that's GOOD! <P> <BR><P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Oh No!!!! Please K, don't send me back out into the world of finding a therapist who actually is successful!!!!<P>I don't know if it's where I live or just my tendency to find all the losers but I've talked with 11 different counselors and therapists and the results were my thinking that I should be giving them reference material!!!<P>Is there any books or reference sites on the web that may cover this if you can't explain?<P>Thanks, and you had me laughing!!! At this point, I'll take the examples of what not to do!! LOL!!!

Sheba and "K"<P>I don't mean to change the topic of this thread, but I too would be greatly interested in any information on how to deal with & relate to conflict avoiders. As you know from my postings in the other forum I now recognize that this has been the root of my problems since day one. My wife will always tell someone what they want to hear to keep everyone happy (except herself). I'd love to find a book on how to deal with this. The therapists I've talked to over the years have had few suggestion. Perhaps we should start this topic with a new posting.<P>------------------<BR>Prayer doesn't change things for you - it changes you for things.<P>

Madelyn,<P>Thanks for your list, I printed it out to share with my H and see if he thinks there is anything that strikes a cord with him particularly.<P>Communication has always been a problem for use, h always cuts me off -- my opinion does not matter to him, even when he asks for my opinion, he cuts me off and doesn't let me finish. H will not talk about work with me which I have always thought was odd, now that I know about affair I can see why he doesn't need to talk to me when he has her to talk to all day.<P>Need to feel important -- hard to do when h calls me a slave. Actual quote, h talking to daughter, "I'm the King, you're the Princess, and mommy's the slave."<P>H probably feels I give all of my attention to our daughter, which at times is true, she is my full time job.<P>Every time I try to touch H outside of sex, he pulls away.<P>The date thing is a good idea too.<P>Thanks, madeline for actually giving ideas of things that might work for others.<P>Long Suffering

Sheba, Stardust:<P>Try either Communication Miracles for Couples : Easy and Effective Tools to Create More Love and Less Conflict, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573240834/ref=sim_books/002-1668184-7203445" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573240834/ref=sim_books/002-1668184-7203445</A> or How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767900421/ref=sim_books/002-1668184-7203445" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767900421/ref=sim_books/002-1668184-7203445</A> .<P>Sheba, I'm going to pass on the "how not to tips"... I really made my wife feel very bad last night. It was completely unintentional, but as Steve Harley would say, "That's no excuse...".

Someone mentioned couseling to try to repair problem. I have been trying to get my H into mariage counseling for years, even got written promises from him but never got anywhere with it. Finally we got in this summer, but my H told me I could not talk about his affair (esp. him saying her name in the heat of passion with me). Then after our second visit, he canceled the next counseling session and kept making excuses not to go, finally two weeks ago the excuses wore out and he got us scheduled for next week. It is so hard to get appointments at this place and it takes so long to get anywhere -- especially if you never go!<P>Any suggestions for getting him to actually talk about the problems in the relationship if I do get back to the counselor with him???<BR>I let him pick the counselor, the time, etc., to encourage him to go.<P>Neither one of us has a problem with depression, so those posts did not apply to our situation, but I'm sure your experiences will help others, thanks for sharing.<P>P.S. Still interested in what if anything your spouse could have done that would have made your marriage happy and avoided betrayal (whether it was one major thing or one small thing that just broke the camel's back or a list of 2-100 things).<P>Long Suffering

Thanks for the info K!!! I really appreciate it.<P>As to last night - on the positive side you learned one more thing in the art of communication!!!<P>I'm sure you will smooth it with your wife.<P>Thanks again,<P>Sheba

My H used his affair as the springboard he needed in order to dump me and our marriage. He had NO intention of doing anything to make our marriage better or face that his behavior was a major factor in the breakdown of our marriage. He: 1) Refused to go for counseling, 2) Was concerned with only what he wanted and needed for himself: 3) Cut me off sexually for long periods of time, 4) When confronted about his lack of participation in our marriage, assured me that he wanted the marriage, and treated me better for a while, just long enough for me to think there might be hope (in other words, he gaslighted me.), 5) Refused to discuss our problems in a constructive way - did nothing but make unreasonable and unrealistic demands, 6) Spent large sums of money and ran up credit bills without consulting me, and mostly for things for himself. 7) Had an affair, lied about it, then walked out on me without so much as a backward glance, 8) Blamed me for the breakdown of the marriage because I would not give him a child (he is sterile!!!) The very thing he demanded was made impossible by his actions and his problem. But he needed an excuse to walk out on me. But he sure wasn't going to do it until he found someone else to be with. So - Long Suffering - I agree with you - in my case, my betrayer did nothing to improve our marriage in the least, because he was just biding his time, until someone came along who already had what he wanted (a young child). He had to wreck our marriage before he could walk away (but only after finding my replacement). No matter what I did, it would not have made any difference - Plan A, Plan B - wouldn't have mattered in the least. He had already made up his mind. And since there was no way I could give him what he demanded, there was no way I could ever win, was there? My H was what Dr. Frank Pittman (author of "Private Lies") calls a shopper - someone who has decided to be unhappily married, and who is looking for the "perfect mate" . But they will not leave the marriage (until and unless a suitable replacement comes along), and they will not participate fully in it or do anything to improve it, either. There is not much a spouse can do in a case like this. I think such behavior is intentionally cruel. <P>No one or no mariage is perfect, and should not have to be in order for one spouse or the other to refrain from cheating. That is why the marriage vows state "for better or worse, richer or poorer", etc. They do not state - " as long as I am happy and get all my needs met." My husband was far from perfect, and I had almost none of my needs met, but I did not have an affair as a means to make myself feel better. If one is in an unhappy, unhealthy marriage (and thinking of going elsewhere as a solution) - one can do one of two things - improve it (with an emphasis on what you need to do, not just what your spouse needs to do) or you can leave the marriage honestly and cleanly. Dr. Pittman's book is a real eye-opener - I highly recommend it.

Lady M - Did you marry my ex husband!!!!?

Lady M,<P>I feel my H is similar to yours in that he doesn't want to be married to me, but feels for some reason he cannot leave. He would be the first one in his family to divorce. If he really isn't happy, I would prefer it if he would just leave, he is dragging me thru this crap, but he isn't trying to improve anything and he will not leave. I think he would leave me if his girlfriend demanded it, but that would be quite the demand since she is married and still lives with her H.<P>I don't know why they always have to have a replacement before they leave, it probably has something to do with the insecurity.<P>I really believe that my H hates me and is torturing me on purpose, wouldn't it be earsier to just leave me alone???<P>Hope you have better luck than me.<P>Long Suffering<P>

I believe my H was vunerable to his brief affair not because things had deteriorated as much as he changed the way he thought about our marriage.<P>Sure there is always room for improvement. We made mistake of putting our family unit (kids) first instead of protecting our primary maritial relationship. We were/are too busy. Neither one of us are perfect. We tended to minimize each others strengths and maximize each other's weaknesses. We were both big time conflict avoiders. However, we really had a good marriage and a wonderful life and family.<P>Then my H had a job disappointment (nothing major), turned 40, started to "go out" with a male friend more often who lied about how great his sex life was with his wife (it wasn't) he was just kidding around that he would come home from the bar to have his wife waiting for sex. H would come home a little tipsy and a lot smokey and I was not "in the mood"...so he started seeing me as a less desirable than what he imagined his friend to have. I think that started spilling over to other areas of his life and he became disatisfied with career, age...etc.<P>In other words, not much had really changed, except how he viewed it. When brazen hussy tramp aggressively kissed him then pursued him, I think he did so out of curiousity and weakness, not a quest to get his needs met.<P>Of course he never shared any of this with me until it was too late. <P>Without being a mind reader, could I alone have prevented it? No. I share in the vunerability and I have worked successfully for nine months to recover, but in my case I have to say a flukey set of contributing factors converged and it "just happened" without a great reason behind it.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Long Suffering - I am now divorced from my H. He walked out on me in January of 1997. I filed for divorce in February of 1997 - I had to in order to gain legal possesion of the house, and to establish that he was responsible for his debts. He dragged out the settlement (did not want to pay spousal support - tried to get out of it). Also, being not free to marry suited his purpose, as I believe he was not ready to make a committment to marry her, due to doubts about her - she has some sort of mental disorder, and has been divorced twice already. He finalized the divorce this past April. I did nothing to hasten or hinder it - it did not take place until he decided to settle. They were supposed to get married August 14th, but for some reason it was postponed. He has still not married her, although I hear that it is supposed to happen very soon. He insists to all that he is "very happy", but if he was, and is so in love with her, he could have been divorced six months after we separated if he had wanted to be. She is too "out of it" to realize that he is just using her as his entry to the "Daddy Club" and that he wants the title more than he wants the job. Either that, or she doesn't care, just wants an extra income and someone to help her raise the kid. Either way, it is pathetic.<P>I am doing surprisingly well on my own. He signed the house over to me, and took responsibility for his own debts. Even though I have less income, I am better off, because I am very thrifty, and have improved my financial situation immensely since he has been gone. I will receive $400.00 per month spousal support from him for the next seven years. I have my peace of mind, my integrity, and my honor intact, all of which he threw away. I have wonderfully supportive friends (most of the mutual friends decided that they did not want to be friends with him anymore), and I feel very fortunate and blessed about how I have come through this. Of course, I would have preferred not to have had my husband and my marriage ripped away from me, and I still feel anger and pain over what he did to our marriage. I know in my heart that there is nothing else I could have done that would have affected the outcome.<P>My prayers are with you that your outcome will bring you peace, whichever way it goes. I have just had to accept that I cannot control everything - I can only control my own feelings and actions. My Ex-H will have to live with the consequences of his......<P>Trustntruth - Maybe your H and my Ex are clones!!!<p>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited September 09, 1999).]

Long Suffering - I think that the reason the betrayers have to have someone else first is because they want to leave the marriage, don't have the guts to do it honestly, are not really sure they want to leave - but will leave if someone (perceived as) better comes along. So when they start the affair, they do not break it off with the spouse because they are not sure the new relationship will work, and if it doesn't, they will stay in the marriage. That way, they will not lose everything for naught. If the new relationship works, they will then proceed to dump their spouse. It's called "Hedging your Bets". What pathetic, shallow behavior!!!