Blindsided,<P>In some ways I am kind of at, where you are. <BR>My W's affair happened almost 4 years ago, and eventhough, as far as I can tell, there has not been any more affairs with men since then - it has been very hard for us since that happened. She seems to have to fight not being in that situation. Like I said, I don't think any more affairs have taken place since then, she has made enough moves with men to allow it to happen - like giving men she just meets her home and cell phone numbers, sharing the problems with them that she has with me. It's like since that affair that she can hardly control that side of her.<P>With me, like you, I usually stay the course with something that I believe in until I am successful, and more often than not, I am successful in my efforts. This time though I should just try and see what is real, not what I want to see. Yes, she does still say that she loves me and that she always will. But she says, we don't get along, that we don't trust each other. She says that I am a good man and that if she can't remain my W, that she doesn't want any man. Last year, when we were separated -she told me that I was the perfect father, the perfect provider and the perfect lover, but as a husband I was not good. That confused me a great deal, since I thought that those very qualities were at least some of what went in to being a good husband. I think some of her frustration is that over the 15 years that we have been together I have grown personally a great deal, while she has stayed the same for the most part. And I think it is clear, that if we go on and live our own lives, separate from each other, that will be the way then as well - that I will grow and adjust and learn from what I have been through, but she will continue to go through life much as she has. While she might say she loves me - I have to be able to look at what she has said and done to me over the years, especially the last 4 years. Do you put someone that you truly love through that much pain and torture?? I don't think so, I think you do it for yourself, for your own needs and wants. Never mind anyone else!<P>richard<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rich1959:<BR><B>I guess you're right Rosey that we love the person that they were - not what they have become.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am really, really troubled by this idea. Everybody changes, and if my love is conditioned on my spouse staying the same (or being what I imagine him/her to be), then my marriage is pretty much foredoomed to failure.<P>Perhaps a better way of dealing with these kinds of situations would be to follow the old saying: "Hate the sin, but love the sinner."<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Last year, when we were separated -she told me that I was the perfect father, the perfect provider and the perfect lover, but as a husband I was not good. That confused me a great deal, since I thought that those very qualities were at least some of what went in to being a good husband. I think some of her frustration is that over the 15 years that we have been together I have grown personally a great deal, while she has stayed the same for the most part.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This could be a very important insight. Yes, the qualities your wife admired are <I>some</I> of what goes into being a good husband. But a marriage should be a partnership of equals. If your wife doesn't believe that you respect her (or even that you <I>could</I> respect her), then anything you do for her is likely to lower her self-esteem and raise her resentment. If possible, you need to find a way to respect her and <I>let her know</I> that you respect her if you want to undercut the adolescent-style rebellion she seems to have fallen into. This could be very tricky, especially since you also need to communicate your belief that what she is <I>doing</I> is unhealthy and wrong.<P>Believe it or not, it really is possible to respect someone while condemning their choices and actions.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>While she might say she loves me - I have to be able to look at what she has said and done to me over the years, especially the last 4 years. Do you put someone that you truly love through that much pain and torture?? I don't think so, I think you do it for yourself, for your own needs and wants. Never mind anyone else!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Remember, you can't love someone else any more than you love yourself.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited January 29, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> I guess you're right Rosey that we love the person that they were - not what they have become.<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>I am really, really troubled by this idea. Everybody changes, and if my love is conditioned on my spouse staying the same (or being what I imagine him/her to be), then my marriage is pretty much foredoomed to failure.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think we need to distinguish between changes that are learning, growth and improvements, versus downward spirals into less evolved attitudes and behavior. No one has to love that--although "love" might persist for that person based on the potential for redemption.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> I think we need to distinguish between changes that are learning, growth and improvements, versus downward spirals into less evolved attitudes and behavior. No one has to love that--although "love" might persist for that person based on the potential for redemption.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Agreed. And the memory of what that person once was should be a strong basis for belief in that potential.<BR>

That's what I was getting at - not that I mean, because someone changes as we all do over time, I think that is a given that we all grow and change. It is just that when someone changes for the worse, into something that we do not like, someone that no longer seems to care for us and even hurts us, for their own personal gain. Someone that no longer has the morals and standards that we once thought they had. How can you possibly love and respect, yes respect, someone like that??

Ok, guess in some senses I gave off the wrong impression. I love my husband, and I am willing to accept personality changes, physical changes, etc... What I do NOT love is that fact that he could lie to me, betray me, and not feel all that bad about it. I DESERVE BETTER. I was/am more than willing to try and make things "right", but he is merely playing me while he makes up his mind. I would GLADLY take back the man that I married IF I could think that he would/could be honest and open again, and NOT cheat...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rich1959:<BR><B>How can you possibly love and respect, yes respect, someone like that??</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would not have married my wife if I hadn't thought that she was in some sense "too good" for me; that she would inspire me to be a better person. I respected her inner strength, her talent and intelligence, her self-discipline and determination, her generosity and sensitivity, and so much more. Now her determination is working in top gear to shut down her sensitivity. She may now be fighting me, and herself; but those qualities I always admired in her are still there. They have merely been "turned to the dark side".<BR>

I agree, I would take my wife back in a heartbeat if I knew that the lying and cheating was over for good and that she would be open and honest and loving with me.<BR>That's why it is so hard - we really do want them back in our lives, if they could be the way the were one day, but we really don't think that is possible, and we know for certain that it is not very likely.<P>It's weird, tonight she called me because she wanted to talk to someone. She said she felt lonely and that she missed me. I do believe all of that, but why does she want to do what she does, and why does she want to live apart from me, if that is the way she feels. I asked her why she missed me, if she didn't want me in her life - she told me that she didn't feel that way. I said did she miss me just because she was used to me, was comfortable with me and the things that I could do for her and know what to expect from me. She really didn't have an answer for that one, because I don't think that she really knows. I don't really know either - do I still have a spot in my heart for her because I really do love her, or is it because I once loved this woman, or is it because for 15 years she has been the centre of my life and all my hopes and dreams and heartache revolved around her and I don't know what else to do with myself after all these years?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rich1959:<BR><B>I don't really know either - do I still have a spot in my heart for her because I really do love her, or is it because I once loved this woman, or is it because for 15 years she has been the centre of my life and all my hopes and dreams and heartache revolved around her and I don't know what else to do with myself after all these years?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Love is a <I>choice</I>. It's not a feeling.<BR>

Is it really??? Many people might suggest that love is a feeling. Do you choose to love, or does love choose us?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rich1959:<BR><B>Is it really??? Many people might suggest that love is a feeling. Do you choose to love, or does love choose us?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Infatuation chooses us. Parental attachment is instinctive. Affection is a natural response to another's benevolence toward us. Any and all of these feelings can make it easy for us to love.<P>But <I>real</I> love is unconditional and unselfish. It means doing what's best for our loved ones no matter how they respond, and no matter how we feel. <I>That</I> takes an act of will.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rich1959:<BR><B><BR>It's weird, tonight she called me because she wanted to talk to someone. She said she felt lonely and that she missed me. I do believe all of that, but why does she want to do what she does, and why does she want to live apart from me, if that is the way she feels. I asked her why she missed me, if she didn't want me in her life - she told me that she didn't feel that way. I said did she miss me just because she was used to me, was comfortable with me and the things that I could do for her and know what to expect from me. She really didn't have an answer for that one, because I don't think that she really knows. I don't really know either - do I still have a spot in my heart for her because I really do love her, or is it because I once loved this woman, or is it because for 15 years she has been the centre of my life and all my hopes and dreams and heartache revolved around her and I don't know what else to do with myself after all these years?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Doesn't this seem just a tad bit cruel??? My STBX is doing/saying the same things to me..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blindsided123:<BR><B> Doesn't this seem just a tad bit cruel??? My STBX is doing/saying the same things to me.. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's <I>more</I> than a tad bit <I>confused</I>, is what it is. When the desire for intimacy wars with the fear of intimacy, a bewildering little dance results. It's called the "dance of distance", and it's usually danced in pairs.<P>Some people, though, seem to manage the steps quite well all on their own, leaving their partner trying to figure out how (or whether) to cut in.<BR>

Not really sure what you are saying there G. Can you put that is layman's language??<P>Anyways, the W called me this AM after the kids left for school to "talk". She asks me if I miss her - I say "yes". She asks me why I don't tell her that - I say "because I don't want to complicate things". She has shown me in many ways over the last 4 years that I am not what she wants - so, I don't think what is at issue is whether I miss her or not, but more importantly does she miss me?? It does make me feel good that she misses me, and yes I do miss her. But I feel that the only way the she can decide what she wants out of her life is to have some time alone and some space. Then hopefully she can evaluate her life - see where she wants to go from here and who she wants to do that with, with a commitment behind it. I am lonely, but I am willing to give her some time, to see if she comes out of the "fog". It has to be up to her this time - I chased and fought for her twice before when she left - this time she has to make up her own mind. She knows that I love her, she knows that I miss her and she knows that I have a spot for her in my life. I am waiting to see if SHE wants to be there!

rich1959, your wife is <I>confused</I>. She wants a relationship with you, but she is afraid to get too close, because she is afraid that you don't really want her. So when you get too close, she pushes you away. And when she gets too far away, she comes running back.<P>Yes, she has to make up her own mind. But whether you miss her or not <I>is</I> what's at issue - among many other things. Letting her know how you feel about her, letting her know that you miss her, is not chasing her. You say that she knows you love her and she knows you miss her, but how <I>can</I> she know that if you're keeping her at arms length and <I>not telling her</I>?<P>You say that for four years your wife has shown you that you are not what she wants. Fair enough. But for four years your wife has also shown you that you <I>are</I> what she wants. You've already told us as much. So stop being so selective about what you respond to.<P>Tell your wife your heart, and let <I>her</I> decide how much time and space she needs. Don't force distance on her pretending that you're doing it for <I>her sake</I>. If <I>you</I> need time and space yourself, or some evidence that whatever decision she makes is her own (rather than something you manipulated or persuaded her to do), then fine, make that clear to her too. You won't be "complicating things". Things are <I>already</I> complicated, and the sooner the both of you recognize this, the better.<BR>

The one thing I am certain about is that we both know that things are complicated and confusing. Your thoughts on the situation shed a different light on the situation. I am not sure that I agree with all that you say, but it does give reason to think in a different way.

GnomedePlume,<P>you are very insightful, well typed with knowledge.<P>The layman's description is from the book, "Passionate Marriage," <P><I> the want to be wanted </I><P>in other words, some people love the romance of the chase. <P>richard, have you read "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman? if not, the book may explain your wife's behavior. What he protrays is that once the chase is ended, reality is boring, and these people like the chase, or being chased.<P>That's a key to understanding some people's behavior. What happens in the chase situation? The chasee feels that they have total control, can reward pursuing behavior, and ignore non pursuing behavior. The feelings are intoxicating and reminding one of being youthful.<P>After awhile the chaser gives up, seeing the impossibility of his dilemma ending the way he wants, capitulation to being a couple.<P>tom<BR>

WIFTT,<P>No, I have not read that book, sounds like it might be worthwhile reading. A lot of what you say about the chasee sounds very familiar - at least that's the way it appears to me.

WIFTT,<P>That "Private Lies" book - did some checking and there is a paperback edition published in 1990 and a hard cover edition published in 1998 - which one do you think it is?? Both are by the same author - not sure if the hard cover is the same - usually the hardcover is out first and the paperback edition follows, this case is the other way around - am wondering if they are slightly different???