Blue is me. I've done wrong and been wronged. If you have time please give me some consideration. Is this really the end, is it one or two sided?<P>Our lives are complicated and marriage makes them more or less so... it is never neutral. I'll try to be brief but probably can't. Even if you don't read all of this and even if you don't respond it is cathartic form me.<P>I see a lot of posts from young people. Their problems are money, infidelity, substance abuse, sex and other deprivations of the soul. My heart goes out to the young and old women and some of the men who post. All these things are wrong and clearly Marriage Busters. I have done none of these, my guilt is anger born of frustration and lack of respect shown me for my values that I think are very high. High, not arrogant, I am tolerant of other views but can't abide sorryness.<P>My wife wants a divorce and seems to consider herself without responsibility for conditions. She never has... ever. All I do is wrong and her bitterness and resentment towards me accumulates. The sun never does seem to go down on her wrath.<P>She professes to be a Christian and is in the church everytime the doors are open. And yet, the letter to the Corinthians seems lost on her. Her use of the scriptures seems to be to direct and manipulate rather than encourage. It never seems to apply to her.<P>For my part, I struggle with fear of failure though I am successful. In my field I am one of the two or three experts in the world. I struggle with loneliness though I have a few good friends and many acquaintances. None take the place of the realationship I long for.<P>I don't drink, don't smoke, don't drug, don't womanize, don't gamble, don't stay out late, don't forsake my responsibilities.<P>I do, love my home, my child, my family, my God, I do provide very well and constantly fear I won’t be able to, I do care, I do hurt, I am generous. I do work hard and long, probably to a fault… it is my refuge.<P>I do get angry when annoyed, I do get down when discouraged, I do worry when I am uncertain. I am demanding but much more demanding on myself than others.<P>I would like to have mutual friends, to entertain quietly with friends in our home. I would like to have deep introspective conversations about man, mankind and our place in the universe, science, philosophy, medicine, business, history, religion. I would like to learn more about us. I would like to do things together but…. I live with a ticking time bomb. I never do know when she is going to blow up…. I’m tired of being embarrassed and making excuses for her behavior. Maybe she feels the same way about me….<P>I fail to manage my anger with those whom I love the most and others. There are only excuses for this but there have to be causes that I try to understand... frustration in being understood in an illogical world and dealing with illogical people who can't reason perhaps? I hunger for love and want so much to love and be loved in return. I have thought I was a good and generous man but my wife thinks otherwise because....I just don't know why.<P>She is Pentecostal and I consider her and her upbringing fanatic. (That is judgemental, I know.) Is that it? Is it because I won't do as she demands and go to her church? There are good people there and some I have come to care for, respect and trust fully. I did try it there for two years but my relationship with God is much more quiet and personal. On the plus side I have never stood in her way from doing what she wants to do with respect to her church. I just don’t agree with her path.<P>Is there some deep secret in her past that causes her to hate me (and herself and others)? Some abuse so dark she doesn't know it herself? Is it an illness, she is hypoglycemic, a mania or just hormones… not likely menopause because I can’t see any difference in her behavior caused by PMS from what she displayed 25 years ago in college.<P>I said I wouldn't rattle on. I think the facts are these:<P>1) My parents visited last weekend<BR>2) My son came home from college<BR>3) We all ate dinner together Friday night and had a good time. There was a Bluegrass band that did traditional and gospel music. She liked it all and said, “I would like to come here with you again on Friday nights.” I enjoyed it to and the prospect of doing something together was good to me.<BR>4) Next day, Saturday. My son didn't like it when I was ready to leave for lunch with my father and, after we waited 10 minutes after he said he was ready, decided I was hurrying him and got mad at me... fine, I said, stay home and we left.<BR>5) She didn't like my "screaming" at him. She has sabotaged my management of the son for almost two decades.<BR>6) She didn't like my son putting his dirty clothes on the kitchen counter and it became my fault and responsibility to do something about "him".<BR>7) I thought things were alright after having worked in the yard all day, I was happy to have my parents with me and glad the son was home. I came in and found her cooking, "Wow, that smells good, whatcha cooking?" a hateful reply "Food, what's it to you?" I retreated, knowing things would only go downhill from here and not knowing what I had done.<BR>8) The tension in the house and at dinner is so thick you can cut it with a chainsaw.<BR>9) Next morning she's off to church as usual.<BR>10) Brings back lunch but the son, who slept until noon, has announced that he has to go back at 1230 instead of the normal 230 pm.<BR>11) I'm trying to hurry and set the table, get water glasses filled, put the food on the counter and she doesn't understand why I'm hurrying though I try to tell her.<BR>12) Ready to say grace and I say, "Let's go ahead and say grace and eat so we can get the son back to school"<BR>13) She then says, "I'm sick of your damn fussing, you've *****ed and griped for 22 years. We're sick of it!" With my 73 year old mother and father present who drove 500 miles to see us she announces to them, "It's all your fault, you've coddled him and he has coddled the son."<BR>14) At that point I walk out, get in the truck and leave for 15 minutes.<BR>15) I think, this is dumb I want to see my son before he goes back to school, I drive back home.<BR>16) I arrive to see my 73 year old father carrying bags out with his head hung down.<BR>17) I go in and say, "What have you done?" to her. I get a sneer and stare and the beginnings of go to hell.<BR>18) At that point I lost it. I did wrong, I lost control.<BR>19) I leave with no serious physical damage done except to my mother who the wife threw a tea kettle at and cut her finger. I guess that’s what happened, I really can’t say, It was all so confusing and crazy.<BR>20) She then calls the police and raises hell with them. I don't live this way and wasn't brought up this way. They leave admonishing me to just walk away when I feel angry and enforce a withdrawal of both parties.<BR>21) My parents and I leave, she takes the son to school and overnights in a hotel<P>Now she wants a divorce, my son won't speak to anyone, won't answer e-mail, won't call. He has corresponded with a dear friend of mine and my dad. I am worried sick about him.<P>Why did this happen? What set the bomb off? I still don’t see anything rational that justified the events to begin on Saturday and spiral down hill rapidly from there. I am truly mystified, confused and hurt.<P>She has done the same thing described above in January of 1996 and February of 1999. In both cases the events were the same save for my “losing it” and her calling the police. The common thread is my parents visit. No they’re not overbearing, in fact they hardly ever visit or call, they know it makes problems for me with her. I do all my talking to them from my cell phone on the road so as not to upset her. They have extended her every kindness even when she is hateful to them.<P>I have honored her need to be with her much older parents for 22 years since they have been sick since I met her. Her mother passed away New Years 1996. We haven’t had Christmas together at our home in 13 years because of the agreement. She has spent about a month with them each summer for the last many, many years.<P>In February of 1999 when she went berserk I had just been laid off from a job of 17 years. What precipitated that event was my parents visit, some friction caused by her being judgemental about my choice of religion and my tossing a phenolic stone with engraved scripture on the bed without her in it at the time. She later explained that she found it the next morning and thought I had tried to kill her in the night with a rock (yes, I know it sounds too crazy to understand). She left my son and I for 1 ½ months but not until after having cleaned out all the savings accounts. My son and I were all but broke. I had found other work consulting at the time and had to ask my employer to accelerate payment of my first invoice… humiliating. She tried to do the same thing again this time but I beat her to the bank… I had to, the last event was just too costly.<P>When she left the son and I managed and were managing better each day. She called, all sweetness wanting to come back. I asked her to please not come back and the son did also when he finally would talk to her. She came back anyway, things were OK for a few months but tense…. The ticking time bomb.<P>She has established a pattern of running away that began years ago. Rational discussion is an unrealistic expectation when she is present and impossible when she runs away. I recall when the son was about 2 ½ she took off in her new Volvo with all her pills. I remember waking the son up and going out in the night looking for her. She’s left us with me getting ready to catch a plane overseas needing to take care of important business and I’ve had to call on help from the church not knowing what would happen when she came back.<P>Please don’t jump to the conclusion that my work is more important than the family and that I’m never home. I have managed to be home enough over the years to be a scout leader, build three houses, a barn and landscape four yards, build furniture and try to be a good provider.<P>Yes, we’ve counseled, twice. She wouldn’t go back anymore when the individual counseling began… because I was the one who needed to change.<P>We are all apart now, the three of us, I'm in an extended stay hotel, cause I didn’t want her to be. I spent up to 170 nights a year in hotels in years past... it's a lonely place to be when you're feeling all alone. I thought she would go to her dad's but instead she expects to "settle" this and sign the papers in just one or two days. So, dummy me, I suggested she might be able to think better if she stayed at the house. I told her there is no need for an evacuation, that I won't bother her.<P>She has never worked outside the home in all her life though she has two teaching degrees. I have provided for all her physical needs for all these years. She also seems to hold me responsible to provide for all her emotional needs including self esteem, of which she never had much. I have encouraged her to go back to school many times and do something...even if it is volunteer work. Our son has been independent for some time, he is now nearly 19. She lives on five acres in the woods with a gated drive with deer roaming the grounds and a 180 acre private lake down the street, drives a new luxury car and has a reasonable monthly allowance. Last time I looked she had over $9,000 in her checking account… I don’t’ expect her to account for that to me, this is hers for household expenses and herself. She’s not necessarily a spendthrift and I certainly am not. I don’t really demand much. I do expect and get clean clothes and a clean house. She’s a good cook and I appreciate that, but I’ll eat about anything that is put in front of me. I make no physical demands on her, I’ve slept alone upstairs for the last year and a half ‘cause I “bother her”. Truth is she bothers me too, since she has become so heavy and snores so loudly, maybe I do too.<P>I fear her both physically and in terms of what she may do to me emotionally, legally and financially. I have gone to bed many nights with one eye open and staying away from her now is as much out of fear as anything. I have made it a policy not to be around her without witnesses.<P>My plan is to get her calmed down to the point I can offer her some options. I have to carefully phrase things so that I don’t appear in any way to tell her what to do and set off the bomb again.<P>My work and business is here. This area is no place for her… she has no support system here and not much of one in her home town (maybe that’s why she wanted to come back in ’99).<P>I want to suggest she decide where she wants to go to try to establish herself and make a plan for her future. If that is here, I’ll move out but I don’t see how she can care for the house and yard, spring is coming with all of it’s chores. I want to give her a stipend to become established.<P>I want to give her some time alone to either stay alone or decide she wants to change things… both of us change things. Maybe she can’t change… If WE don’t change I won’t live like this any longer.<P>What do I do? I have no place to turn but to God and I am praying hard but uncertain what to pray for. I want change and expect change to be a two way street. I met her 25 years ago September 28, Sweet, vivacious, bright eyed and a good girl. I have always been ambitious and honest. She said she married me because I was steady and true, I think I still am.<P>What happened? What do I do? What can I do?<P>

{{{{{{{{{Helpifyoucan}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>All relationships are two sided. First I would suggest listening to some of the older/wiser people on this board for the best advice. Read the EN worksheet and see if she would be willing to fill one out as well. <P>I will say that I can certainly sympathize with you about traveling and staying in hotels most of your life. It is very lonely (I am in one myself right now). Keep your head up. Be as nice as possible to her, hopefully she will see what she might lose and agree to go to counselling with you. <P>As for the religion aspect. It seems to play a very large part in this. Religion is a very personal thing, each of us chooses our own. You can only do what you are comfortable with. <P>Sorry I don't have much advice, I will be happy to be an ear to listen though if you need to talk. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com

You are kind. I expected to have someone flame me.<P>I used to sit in the hotel in London, Caracas, Bogota, Jakarta, Luanda... any of an number of places on any of the continents and think. I'd think about all the folks I saw a tables eating alone or in their rooms. I'd think how interesting it would be if we all ate family style and could share stories of family, home, work, hobbies.. a real networking fest huh? Just think of the opportunities missed! Every once in a while I would ask if I could sit... when the tables were all taken mostly and generally with couples who looked older and touristy. I met some lovely people that way... one never knows... we are all so afraid and vulnerable. Afraid to be hurt.<P>I have had some idea that somehow the Lord would speak to her heart and let her see that if I am angry my problem is controlling it. The other thing I would pray for is that she would see that something causes it and that it takes two to make a problem? I want to have faith and pray for the outcome to be given.<P>My problem is that I am a problem solver. Right now this is a problem that doesn't want to be solved.<P>I believe it may be best to withdraw for a while. Meanwhile I will look for even more reasonable accomodations to rest my head.<P>Between the car going on the fritz just about the time I thought we could put some distance between us the truck shoots craps also. I feel like I'm at Dunkirk without a boat.<P>Thanks again. ANY suggestions are worth considering.<P>When you pray there is always an answer, sometimes it's NO.<P>I am tired now but still have things to do. Tonight I would be a happy man if the Lord would carry me away quietly in the night.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blindsided123:<BR><B>{{{{{{{{{Helpifyoucan}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>All relationships are two sided. First I would suggest listening to some of the older/wiser people on this board for the best advice. Read the EN worksheet and see if she would be willing to fill one out as well. <P>I will say that I can certainly sympathize with you about traveling and staying in hotels most of your life. It is very lonely (I am in one myself right now). Keep your head up. Be as nice as possible to her, hopefully she will see what she might lose and agree to go to counselling with you. <P>As for the religion aspect. It seems to play a very large part in this. Religion is a very personal thing, each of us chooses our own. You can only do what you are comfortable with. <P>Sorry I don't have much advice, I will be happy to be an ear to listen though if you need to talk. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Welcome <B>Helpifyoucan</B>...<P>There is a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P><B>About your post</B>...<P>Can the thoughts of separation...<BR>...they are going to hurt you... short and long term!<P>Do start on a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>...<BR>Check out my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A>.<P>What you also need...<BR>...is to get into counseling...<P>I would recommend that you have a couple of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> (~$95US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A> or Jennifer Harley. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A> (888-639-1639)!<P>It doesn't sound like money is that much of an issue...<BR>...and it is so much more cost effective to have a plan for yourself...<BR>...the Harley's can make a plan...<BR>...the the framework of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> and in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>.<P>I'm praying for you...<BR>...in your Plan A... look to God...<BR>...it's the same God your W believes in...<BR>...this is the relationship to work on...<BR>...to really build your marriage.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

NSR:<P>Your comment, "Can the separation..." Would you like to run with that comment please? Based on what I described and the tension in this situation how can that not be possible?<P>I will read your recommendations... thoroughly but we're dealing with a woman who thinks that the devil lives in a computer and won't touch one... really. This quest of mine for direction and a solution is one sided.<P>Apologies in advance if I offend but I have been trained to be a skeptic... You're selling... how can you not recommend counseling?<P>Money is indeed not critical to practical limits but I have a hard time seeing good money going after bad. 'Course, it's like when my son cut off the end of his finger... whithout trying to put it back on there was a 100% chance of failure. It did work out in the end but it is a little rough around the edges.<P>Hopeful but not wanting to continue to be hurt<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NSR:<BR><B>Welcome Helpifyoucan</B>...<P>There is a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P><B>About your post</B>...<P>Can the thoughts of separation...<BR>...they are going to hurt you... short and long term!<P>Do start on a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>...<BR>Check out my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A>.<P>What you also need...<BR>...is to get into counseling...<P>I would recommend that you have a couple of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> (~$95US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A> or Jennifer Harley. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A> (888-639-1639)!<P>It doesn't sound like money is that much of an issue...<BR>...and it is so much more cost effective to have a plan for yourself...<BR>...the Harley's can make a plan...<BR>...the the framework of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> and in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>.<P>I'm praying for you...<BR>...in your Plan A... look to God...<BR>...it's the same God your W believes in...<BR>...this is the relationship to work on...<BR>...to really build your marriage.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

NSR:<P>I see you are prolific and a problem solver also.<P>No affair here but a whole lot of betrayal on both parts.<P>It's interesting. The one telling the story always did less and took more than the one the story is told about.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NSR:<BR><B>Welcome Helpifyoucan</B>...<P>There is a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... <P>It has a lot of quick links to many of the <B>most</B> important MB sites...<BR>Click here ==> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)</A><P><B>About your post</B>...<P>Can the thoughts of separation...<BR>...they are going to hurt you... short and long term!<P>Do start on a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>...<BR>Check out my post <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A>.<P>What you also need...<BR>...is to get into counseling...<P>I would recommend that you have a couple of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> (~$95US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A> or Jennifer Harley. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A> (888-639-1639)!<P>It doesn't sound like money is that much of an issue...<BR>...and it is so much more cost effective to have a plan for yourself...<BR>...the Harley's can make a plan...<BR>...the the framework of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> and in <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>.<P>I'm praying for you...<BR>...in your Plan A... look to God...<BR>...it's the same God your W believes in...<BR>...this is the relationship to work on...<BR>...to really build your marriage.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Helpifyoucan,<P>Yes...<BR>...do "can"... "trash"... "throw out"... "discard" plans for the separation.<P>One thing that I try to emphasize (and it's in the Harly books too)...<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(#3.) The (betrayed) spouse needs to know that he/she had done his/her best to save their marriage. (page 76 of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank> "Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A>)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(#4.) If the (betrayed) spouse follows the plans (A & B), and they(the plans) fail, the (betrayed) spouse would no longer have any feelings of love for the wayward spouse. (page 76 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your sense of "betrayal" may be different than many others (theirs being infidelity based)...<BR>...but it is founded on the same problems of <B>not</B> abiding by <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>.<P>...I'm not trying to make money for the Harleys...<P>...but I did follow the Plans...<BR>...I just finished with Plan A...<BR>...and started on Plan B a couple of weeks ago...<P>...and they work!<P>Plan A is most effective when you are not separated and you give your spouse every opportunity to see changes in you...<BR>..for one... two... four... six months or more!<P>From experience... personal experience...<BR>...I am telling you...<BR>...a separation makes the chance of your spouse witnessing first hand these changes virtually impossible.<P>If your W is truly a skeptic...<BR>...(after you enter Plan A for a while)...<BR>...have her reflect of the Apostle Thomas...<BR>...and all during Plan A... pray...<BR>...do checkout <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/003890.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rock / P.U.S.H. </A>.<P>Why I recommend counseling...<BR>...I get no money from the Harley's...<BR>...but I've had two counseling sessions myself...<BR>...They don't paint the rosiest picture...<BR>...They are pragmatic...<BR>...They say it like it's going to be...<BR>......BUT...<BR>...They give hope... in more than what your marriage can be... <BR>...They give hope in a better you!!!<P>My marriage isn't going to make it...<BR>...I'm not under any delusions that it will...<BR>But... by working on a Plan A as best as I could...<BR>...I <B>know</B> I've done all I could...<BR>...and will have not just peace of mind...<BR>...but and understanding of what may go into <B>any</B> other relationship I develop.<P>About the "good" money...<BR>...the only place I've found "bad" money is in paying the attorneys for the divorce...<BR>...real bad money...<BR>...for me to the tune of +$20K... so far...<BR>......custody battles aren't cheap... (not an issue for you... but a thought in any case)<P>What I would have given to get my W to counseling (and I tried... maybe not hard enough) before the A.<P>BTW: Plan A is not just for "affairs"...<BR>... it is a way of life...<BR>... a lifestyle change...<BR>... and worth it!<P>I hope this helps a little.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A><p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited January 28, 2001).]

Dear NSR:<P>I was, still am, confused, but you have made a few things more clear for me.<P>I am so muddled at this point that I am not sure I am the betrayed or the betrayer.<P>I did look at your profile and noted you were nearing the divorce stage...thus my questions about how this can be effective.<P>I was looking at it the wrong way. Plan A>>B is an endgame with hope still in it?<P>Too much to go into this morning but the endgame seems appropriate.<P>You make some good suggestions... if not for anything else but for me I will consider a session more strongly.<P>You sound like a good man, there are really a lot of them.<P>Curt<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NSR:<BR><B>Helpifyoucan,<P>Yes...<BR>...do "can"... "trash"... "throw out"... "discard" plans for the separation.<P>One thing that I try to emphasize (and it's in the Harly books too)...<BR> Your sense of "betrayal" may be different than many others (theirs being infidelity based)...<BR>...but it is founded on the same problems of not</B> abiding by <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>.<P>...I'm not trying to make money for the Harleys...<P>...but I did follow the Plans...<BR>...I just finished with Plan A...<BR>...and started on Plan B a couple of weeks ago...<P>...and they work!<P>Plan A is most effective when you are not separated and you give your spouse every opportunity to see changes in you...<BR>..for one... two... four... six months or more!<P>From experience... personal experience...<BR>...I am telling you...<BR>...a separation makes the chance of your spouse witnessing first hand these changes virtually impossible.<P>If your W is truly a skeptic...<BR>...(after you enter Plan A for a while)...<BR>...have her reflect of the Apostle Thomas...<BR>...and all during Plan A... pray...<BR>...do checkout <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/003890.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rock / P.U.S.H. </A>.<P>Why I recommend counseling...<BR>...I get no money from the Harley's...<BR>...but I've had two counseling sessions myself...<BR>...They don't paint the rosiest picture...<BR>...They are pragmatic...<BR>...They say it like it's going to be...<BR>......BUT...<BR>...They give hope... in more than what your marriage can be... <BR>...They give hope in a better you!!!<P>My marriage isn't going to make it...<BR>...I'm not under any delusions that it will...<BR>But... by working on a Plan A as best as I could...<BR>...I <B>know</B> I've done all I could...<BR>...and will have not just peace of mind...<BR>...but and understanding of what may go into <B>any</B> other relationship I develop.<P>About the "good" money...<BR>...the only place I've found "bad" money is in paying the attorneys for the divorce...<BR>...real bad money...<BR>...for me to the tune of +$20K... so far...<BR>......custody battles aren't cheap... (not an issue for you... but a thought in any case)<P>What I would have given to get my W to counseling (and I tried... maybe not hard enough) before the A.<P>BTW: Plan A is not just for "affairs"...<BR>... it is a way of life...<BR>... a lifestyle change...<BR>... and worth it!<P>I hope this helps a little.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A><P>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited January 28, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>[/]<BR>My problem is that I am a problem solver. Right now this is a problem that doesn't want to be solved.<BR> [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am also a problem solver. I find that I need to "fix" everything that is broke. I can be anything (not making enough money, the car, relationships, etc.. ) There are some things however that can't just be "fixed" instantly. This happens to be one of them. When I found out that separation as inevitable I decided to "fix" myself. Someone had to take the initiative, right? Of course I figured that with all the improvements I made things would be "ok" again. They aren't and they weren't. In my case I found that I was blamed for so many things that were wrong, then found out that was NOT ALL together the truth. He was blaming me for things merely to justify is actions. I will say that some of the changes I made in myself are definitely for the better and I will continue on with them. I suggested counseling more for yourself than for your wife. Maybe eventually her also, but right now you are the one who needs their thoughts sorted out. I found that no one but ME could solve my problems, but it was nice to have a third party give some input and help me sort out my head. <P>As for selling something, nothing here. I ended up on this board probably for the same reason as you. Something was broke, I needed to fix it and went pretty much to all ends of the earth to find solutions. Once here I have found it a great place to vent get different opinions on things that were going on, etc... It has been a lifesaver on more than one occasion when I thought I was going crazy. <P>A little off the subject, but I love the idea at the hotel restaurant. I did something similar a couple of weeks ago in a small town in NY state.. Met the nicest gentleman and we ended up sharing a table for dinner. Great conversation, pleasant evening and the time went by so much faster than being alone! <P>You also made the comment "When you pray.. Sometimes the answer is no". That was a very hard lesson learned throughout this ordeal for me. The answer was also "NO" for me. I guess if you want to bring religion into this (and I did somewhat) the answer I finally came to is the the good Lord won't deal me anything I can't handle. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com<BR>

You need to understand that it is quite possible to do severe damage to a relationship without doing anything “wrong”. Your motivations and intentions may be good, and your behaviors might even be exactly right for some other relationship, but that doesn’t mean you are doing what needs to be done in <I>your</I> marriage.<P>You say you are problem solver. That’s good and bad. On the good side, it should make it easier for you to remove blame from the equation: assigning blame will only get in the way. On the bad side, you are tempted to solve problems that are out of your realm of control. Your challenge is to identify what problems you <I>can</I> solve, and turn the rest over to God.<P>It is clear that there’s a lot about yourself that you could change that would improve at least your outlook, and possibly your relationship with your wife. Counseling for yourself is a very good idea, and you will get more “bang for the buck” if you go in with some clear and manageable goals.<P>Some fairly straightforward things that should help include paring down your expectations regarding your wife. It sounds like you expected (or hoped) that she would meet all your relational needs. That’s not realistic. Find other ways of getting your needs met, and take the pressure off your wife (even if that pressure only exists in your own mind, giving you an emotional undercurrent of dissatisfaction).<P>I wonder if you might tend to be a bit too uncompromising. (Compromise is necessary in any marriage, although it <I>is</I> certainly unhealthy if only one party does all the compromising.) For example, you say your wife wanted you to go to church with her. This seems like a way you could have made deposits into your wife’s “love bank”. You don’t have to agree with everything that goes on in the church (or even be comfortable there) to get something out of it.<P>In general, I suspect that you and your wife have been playing out roles that fail to take into account each others’ emotional needs. If you haven’t read up on this concept, I strongly recommend that you do so.<P>Anger management is a funny thing. It is important for you to allow yourself to feel your anger, and to be aware of it, while nevertheless controlling its expression. You and your wife might have differing ideas on what expressions of anger are acceptable, and that would make an excellent topic of discussion, with your wife ideally, but alternatively with a counselor.<P>My anger management was apparently an issue in my relationship with my wife. I thought I managed my anger very well. If I didn’t express anger, my wife assumed I must have deeply buried rage just waiting to explode. And indeed when I did express anger, I sometimes did it explosively, albeit in a controlled manner. I never realized that this terrified my wife. <I>I</I> knew I was in no danger of “losing control”, but <I>she</I> didn’t know that. Even though I had never hurt her, or threatened her, or broken anything, or behaved destructively, I failed to take into account that as a girl she had seen her <I>father</I> out of control and so she might flash back to her childhood fears.<P>You might be surprised at some of the techniques that work for controlling anger. I was. My therapist had me work on something called “empathic listening.” You consciously put yourself in a mindset of listening to your wife, focusing on understanding what she is feeling and encouraging her to explore and elaborate on her feelings. It doesn’t matter how outrageous and unfair those feelings might be, your job is merely to understand them without passing judgement on them or defending yourself. Once I had learned to call up this mindset at will, I no longer found myself even beginning to feel like I might be overwhelmed by anger. Calling up this mindset is tricky when you are caught by surprise (as when your wife suddenly lights into you for saying something that you had meant to be encouraging but which she took as an attack), but overall it is a technique that is surprisingly effective. Especially since anger management was not the reason my therapist gave me for applying the “empathic listening” technique.<P>Do you have a problem with patience as well as anger? You said your wife accused you of “screaming” at your son when you said “fine…stay home” after your son got mad at you for hurrying him. It makes me wonder what really happened, and what has happened in the past. Was your son’s anger a preemptive strike because he was afraid <I>you</I> would get mad at <I>him</I>? Did you warn him <I>calmly</I> that if he wasn’t ready within a certain period of time, that you would go without him? Does he feel the freedom to ask if he can have a little more time, or does he feel he must say he’s ready in hopes that he actually <I>will</I> be ready before you blow up at him? Or is this simply a respect issue? It should not be necessary for you to nag your son, and it is his own problem if he gets angry with you <I>after</I> he has been given adequate warning and a chance to negotiate.<P>Do your son and your wife have a tendency to be chronically late? And do you like to be everywhere on time (or early if possible)? Your son’s idea of “ready”, and your wife’s failure to feel pressured by your son’s stated need to leave for school by 12:30, combined with your sense of pressure in the same circumstance lead me to suspect that you have different ideas about punctuality. This needs to be understood and addressed, or you <I>will</I> have to deal with misunderstandings of the type you described. If your wife is incapable of empathizing with your sense of urgency, she may well assume that there is some <I>other</I> cause for your “fussing”, perhaps even a malevolent one.<P>But don’t assume that when your wife is in a bad mood that it has anything to do with you. I am neither qualified nor sufficiently informed to make a diagnosis, but I can’t help wondering whether your wife has some sort of mental illness (such as depression). Her paranoia in particular is troubling. Regardless, though, try not to take any “hateful” comments personally. Evaluate what she says as objectively as you can and ignore the attitude behind it. If she says something that doesn’t make sense, let it roll off you. (“She’s just in a bad mood.”) But it is important that you do not simply ignore everything she says when she is in a bad mood. If what she says has merit, act on it just as if she had spoken with loving concern. (For example, as the father of your son, it <I>is</I> your responsibility to back up your wife’s desire not to have your son leave his dirty laundry on the kitchen counter.)<P>You ask “What set the bomb off? I don’t see anything rational that justified the events…” Well, first of all, feelings don’t have to be rational. And second, “bombs” of this nature often come from a build-up of feelings over time and are merely triggered by the proximate cause. Further, there may be some validity to your suspicion that your parents’ visit had something to do with it. Does your wife believe your parents don’t like her? Might she perhaps feel guilty at the imbalance in parental involvement in your marriage?<P>Your wife’s problem with self-esteem may be a critical one. If what self-esteem she does have is tied up with you, then she may well resent you for having that kind of control over her life. Unfortunately, if she won’t do anything herself to work on her self-esteem, I don’t know what can be done about this.<P>Regardless, it is very clear that your wife could benefit enormously from competent counseling. Even if she refuses individual counseling, if she will agree to couples counseling you might be surprised at how much could be accomplished. For example, to explore the idea that your wife might feel guilty over the imbalance in parental involvement, you might suggest exploring the possibility that <I>you</I> feel resentment about that. If you can get your wife to talk about <I>your</I> resentment (thus addressing something <I>you</I> need to deal with about yourself), then she is already halfway to an awareness of her own feelings on the matter, and a good counselor might be able to take matters from there.<P>Have you talked to your wife’s pastor about any of this? If he has any influence over her, and if you make it clear that you are willing to be guided by his counsel, that might be an excellent way to persuade her of your sincerity about wanting to do what it takes to repair your marriage.<BR>

Dear blindsided:<P>Had a longish reply prepared then managed to hit a key with my clubby little finger and lost it.<P>Yes,I would like to end this process, however it turns out, with a better me.<P>Yes, it won't be fixed overnight<P>Yes, this board is a refuge and an life saver.. wish my link was faster.<P>I apologise for any ingratious comments about this board... they were not meant to be... I am trained to be a skeptic.<P>I spoke with friends this evening who described a pattern of manipulation that seems to fit this situation to a tee.<P>Keep the good just good enough to keep you interested then push your buttons to heat the situation up. Each time raise the bar on the heat... all in an effort to control you. In each of the cases we spoke about nothing could be done... the manipulator will not accept any criticism and the manipulated person is always the one who needs to be fixed.<P>Transferrence is also involved in the pattern. What ever the manipulator does becomes the negative trait of the manipulated.<P>I'm trying to prepare for the NO answer but will keep praying... I have a lot invested in this... however I have to ask if my motivation is because I have never quit nor failed. A NO answer would be one or both of these negatives in my eyes just now.<P>You sound like a strong willed woman like my sister... she pretty well takes care of everything around her house...I think my brother-in-law got a real good deal.<P>Dinner and conversation would be nice... keep being polite and friendly... never know what may turn up.<P>We fixers are impatient... it takes a lot for us to wait.

Dear GnomeDePlume:<P>Wow! Your reply is impressive for the volume if not for the content which is also quite well thought.<P>The answer to many of your questions is yes and to some no.<P>It is late and I need time to digest your thoughts.<P>I do appreciate your reply and effort.<P>1) The religion is somewhere between a drug and a cult.<BR>2) I did go to church with her for two years on the same premise you suggest. It was during that time she bugged out also<BR>3) Parental involvement is imbalanced on a relative scale of nearly none vs. only some.<BR>4) Yes, they are chronically late and I try to be early instead.<BR>5) The son was and is negotiated with and clear expectations and terms are defined.<P>More later, as I said, I need some soak time.<P>Thanks again,<BR>Curt

Curt- <BR> You hit the nail on the head when you stated that we fixers are impatient. Patience is one of the hardest things in the world for me to have. An asset in my career and a downfall in my personal life. Go figure.<P> And WOW, you just made me look at something that had been staring me in the face this whole time. I also will need to digest the whole idea of why I am doing all this when you stated:<P>.. however I have to ask if my motivation is because I have never quit nor failed. A NO answer would be one or both of these negatives in my eyes just now...<P> Why am I still trying? Is it over love or is it because I have never lost anything that I have tried to succeed in? Will have to do some thinking on that one. <P>

Dear Blindsided:<P>Happy to know that something said prompted some thoughts that may help you. I was afraid I couldn't contribute in my current state.<P>Yes, it seems often to me that a certain word or phrase will make the pile of ideas or command language in the brain fall into place... like a keystone in an arch.<P>This morning finds me wary and a bit fretful not knowing how things will progress and what I should do from one moment to the next. I hope I can get all the vehicles working today so we can put some distance between us and I can gather my thoughts to move forward.<P>I still have a feeling of having been the cause of all this muddled mess and I still want to be a fixer somehow... it feels too hard to contemplate a love, a true love, lost. I don't want it to end like this, I don't really want it to end at all... but I (WE) can't live like this... it seems we are just incompatible. Amazing fact to face after all this time but it is so easy to write and say.<P>I must go now and try to sort out the day.<P>Kindest regards,<BR>Curt

Hi there,<P> When I was reading your post the part about your W "leaving and taking her pills with her" stood out. Do you think she has a drug problem? To me, she sounds erratic but I know there is always two sides, etc.<P> The advice about counseling with the Harlys is very good advice....I've counseled with Steve and he is very good at cutting right through the confusion and getting to the point....a very pragmatic approach. Good luck to you....it can't hurt to at least get Steve or Jennifer's opinion......LU<P>

Lu:<P>I don't think so. This was 16 years ago that she left with whatever she could find.<P>Good thought but I think wrong track. I believe I would know since she has to go get them somewhere and pay with something. I don't see that kind of action or money going out.<P>Truly, I wish it was that simple. Strange as it may sound I think a busted life from chemical dependency could be fixed easier.

Curt- <BR> I guess the one thing I have learned from this is no matter how bad your days are, if you post your thoughts/fears/ or feelings you will find that most of us have had the same at one time or another... Also I have found on more than one occasion that others have been able to put my thoughts into words. <BR> I am hoping also that I haven't given you the wrong impression.. I do believe that if there is any chance of the marriage working then go for it. Learning that there may not be is one of the hardest things I have ever been dealt. Almost like death- Out of my control and not a thing I can do about it. <BR> <BR> You mentioned getting getting both of the cars in order so that you can put some distance between the two of you.. Is that what you really want? Are you going to go ahead and make some more permanent living arrangments? Just from the tone of your first post, it sounded like she would cool off in a day or two and "come around". Would you at this point go back if she offered? Sorry for all the questions.. Part of my nature I guess... Need to "see" the whole picture. (Part of the analyst in me) <P> Anyway, best of luck no matter what you decide to do... We are all here for you.. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com

Dear Blindsided:<P>End of a long day for you? Sounds like you started early and ended late. We call that working from can to can't around my place of business. In the vernacualr... from cain to cain't.<P>You're right about those who have gone through similar... it's just a matter of finding them. God has had a way in the last few days of putting a lot of people in my path who have seen the same or similar... am I just listening harder or is He trying to tell me something. The Internet, ain't it wonderful?!<P>I think we both need time to heal before we can even begin to talk. I think we are both wounded badly and I really worry about her but am afraid of her and her unpredictable nature. I am afraid of setting off the bomb, afraid of rejection... I have to go back to the house this evening to get mail and change out the vehicles... I am very uneasy about it... I would like to just disappear on a job somewhere... I want to talk but don't want to deal with the same things all over again.<P>Her sister is with her, I don't know if this defuses the situation or gives her an ally to plot against me... Like my sister says, "If she doesn't burn the house, steal the assets, haul off the possessions or wreck the place how much worse can it really get... she files divorce first? Save for being pre-empted what do you care? If she does anything dumb you've got her dead to rights." All this is true I think and my attorney says it is also.<P>I went to a friends house last night cooked dinner and played with the babies while the gang watched the SuperBowl. Love kids but glad mine is grown... I'm kinda like a young grandpa... get to play with the kids but leave when they get fussy. I almost forgot things for a few moments but still felt hollow.<P>After the game a buddy and I talked until 1:00 AM. He described a situation his best friend went through with his wife similar to mine. The salient points are these:<P>1) Married 17 years<BR>2) Wife irrational<BR>3) Wife eventually commiteed for observation and put on Lithium after she said that space aliens were sent by H to attack she and the kids.<BR>4) Beautiful person in Lithium<P>Got to go. I'll complete these thoughts later.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blindsided123:<BR><B>Curt- <BR> I guess the one thing I have learned from this is no matter how bad your days are, if you post your thoughts/fears/ or feelings you will find that most of us have had the same at one time or another... Also I have found on more than one occasion that others have been able to put my thoughts into words. <BR> I am hoping also that I haven't given you the wrong impression.. I do believe that if there is any chance of the marriage working then go for it. Learning that there may not be is one of the hardest things I have ever been dealt. Almost like death- Out of my control and not a thing I can do about it. <BR> <BR> You mentioned getting getting both of the cars in order so that you can put some distance between the two of you.. Is that what you really want? Are you going to go ahead and make some more permanent living arrangments? Just from the tone of your first post, it sounded like she would cool off in a day or two and "come around". Would you at this point go back if she offered? Sorry for all the questions.. Part of my nature I guess... Need to "see" the whole picture. (Part of the analyst in me) <P> Anyway, best of luck no matter what you decide to do... We are all here for you.. <P>arm6868@yahoo.com</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Curt- <BR> I can understand the need for separation. I know that right now I couldn't have my H back in the house. I guess I am also at a certain point where I have accepted what I cannot change. If he is not willing to work on this then I will go on with my life. I have done everything humanly possible to "fix" things and accomodate his needs, but my patience is running very low. Last night when we spoke, I just wanted to get off the phone... Same thing today.. <BR> For me, this is like a cruel game. I have a bad habit of seeing things in "black and white" "right vs. wrong". What he is doing to me is "wrong" and I don't seem to be able to get past that much of it. <P>He has been calling me every day for over a week now, but won't commit to trying. I just get a "maybe in time" from him. If he wasn't ready to come back, he should have never contacted me. I have no idea how much "time" I have. I think we should live life to the fullest while we can. I was better off before he started disrupting my life again. Now I seem to be back on that emotional roller coaster (Funny though, the ride isn't as scary the second time around.) <P> Good luck with the house run tonight. I don't envy your position there. I know that I would hate to have to do all of that. I guess in a lot of ways, I am much more fortunate than most. No kids, good job, my own house, etc.. I KNOW that I can make it either way (just stinks to HAVE to). <P> Glad to hear also that you were at least able to escape for a while last night... <BR> <BR> As for the sleeping and working thing.. Have had about 1 good nights sleep since this started. Work is my primary escape and the job does keep me busy. If I can't fix my life, I can always fix problems with the job.. <P>

Dear Blindsided:<P>I am going to finish this up before I crash. Let's talk a some about you.<P>I looked for your story and did find several postings, you were betrayed. He had an affair. Sorry but that's just sorry.<P>Quite a conversation about sex. It's nice to wonderful with someone you love but pretty degrading to both parties if there isn't any love. I suppose I've always wanted to feel we had enough of a self determined will we should put ourselves above the animals. However there is the lure of an illicit affair and it's risk. A lot at risk there. When I was on the road I thought of such a little but knew I couldn't face myself if I did [nobody would have me anyway so what the heck?] Two other problems with that for me... breaking one of the ten commandments [just a fuddy duddy I suppose] and it's premeditated... maybe I'm rationalizing but what I did was losing control in response to an unwarranted and unprovoked attack...I probably just felt I was protecting myself at the time. Enough of such.<P>When did this all begin for you?<P>All these threads and responses are tactical it seems. No one really has the whole picture. These problems have to be approached strategically and we aren't doing much of a job at it. I think it all calls for a white board session with lots of Vinn diagrams and such...<P>I suggest the following in spite of the Plan A Plan B stuff.<P>1) He wants you to forgive him on his terms<BR>2) Sounds like he needs you more than you need him?<BR>3) You need to get some rest but don't take my fine example.<BR>4) I may end up at the same stage on the work on this business... it takes two to make a horserace and right now only one is running.<BR>5) Somebody has to take the high ground but if you're like me right now you don't have an honest educated answer to the question, "Do you love Him/Her?"<BR>6) Absence makes the heart grow fonder...if there is anything still there.<BR>7) Like kids that have misbehaved... let him stew in his own juices for a while... to discuss it is to legitimize his action which is what he seems to seek [Funny, how does that apply to me or she?]<BR>8) Seems like the ball is in his court... he betrayed you... If he doesn't want to play ball... move on to another game.<BR>9) All this is easy to say and hard to do... In my case an affair would be easier to accept... then my path would seem to be more clear...<BR>10) I was better off before he started disrupting my life again. Now I seem to be back on that emotional roller coaster ... THINK ABOUT THIS ONE<P>This leetle space is like working and looking through a knothole.<P>Made it out and back... More confused now than before... My office smelled so good and familiar... I just lemon oiled the desk and cleaned good... all well ordered like I like it... now I'm living like a refugee out of my truck and a bag.<BR>11) I don't know how long you have been wrestling with this but it sounds like you need to not deal with it for awhile. I'll let you know how that seems to be turning out when I finally am able to do it.<P>End of a long day for you? Sounds like you started early and ended late. We call that working from can to can't around my place of business. In the vernacualr... from cain to cain't.<P>You're right about those who have gone through similar... it's just a matter of finding them. God has had a way in the last few days of putting a lot of people in my path who have seen the same or similar... am I just listening harder or is He trying to tell me something. The Internet, ain't it wonderful?!<P>I think we both need time to heal before we can even begin to talk. I think we are both wounded badly and I really worry about her but am afraid of her and her unpredictable nature. I am afraid of setting off the bomb, afraid of rejection... I have to go back to the house this evening to get mail and change out the vehicles... I am very uneasy about it... I would like to just disappear on a job somewhere... I want to talk but don't want to deal with the same things all over again.<P>Her sister is with her, I don't know if this defuses the situation or gives her an ally to plot against me... Like my sister says, "If she doesn't burn the house, steal the assets, haul off the possessions or wreck the place how much worse can it really get... she files divorce first? Save for being pre-empted what do you care? If she does anything dumb you've got her dead to rights." All this is true I think and my attorney says it is also.<P>I went to a friends house last night cooked dinner and played with the babies while the gang watched the SuperBowl. Love kids but glad mine is grown... I'm kinda like a young grandpa... get to play with the kids but leave when they get fussy. I almost forgot things for a few moments but still felt hollow.<P>After the game a buddy and I talked until 1:00 AM. He described a situation his best friend went through with his wife similar to mine. The salient points are these:<P>1) Married 17 years<BR>2) Wife irrational<BR>3) Wife eventually commiteed for observation and put on Lithium after she said that space aliens were sent by H to attack she and the kids.<BR>4) Beautiful person in Lithium, monster without. Would quit because she didn't think she needed it.<BR>5) Wish I could get a graph on this thing to show you the behavior pattern he described. It's something like this... there is a base line of behavior..."normal"... below the base line we move to the obsequeous... above the base line we move to the belligerent. The abuser sucks you in by working way below the base line. Once she is secure she begins to push your buttons to move the relationship above the base line to see how far she can push you. Next she moves slighty below the baseline to pull you back in. Each time she moves you above the base line she pushes just a little harder. The pattern never gets better... only more frequent and worse...MY SITUATION I think.<P>The behavior is characteristic of those abused... their view is that I am not worthy of love and this guy can't really love me. Let me see just how much he loves me... I'll see how far I can push him. I always felt she couldn't be loved and always felt if I loved her a little more she would be alright... somewhere along the way I got tired of not ever being loved back so I quit loving.<P>As you see, I'm trying to figure out what went wrong. I told her I would like to find out why we have a problem and see if it can be managed before we take this move. Her reply is that she wants her money and to leave... not much to work with there.<P>I have found three counselors and am interviewing them. She thought that was a good thing and want to be sure I was specific about the help I needed... Anger managemet... sounds like her sister talking... She said that I really needed to work on MY problem... no mention of hers... funny, I don't get all that angry with anyone else... wonder why?<P>Well that's over... I won't play the game described above... It gives me insight as to why she always got so mad when I walked away...nobody's buttons to push anymore.<P>It is a sad affair... If she is doing this at all and if she is doing this because of abuse.... It may be worse if she is just not a nice person.<P>Got to hit the sack... beat... tomorrow will be a different hotel and a different day. I am going to disappear for about two weeks now that the vehicles are fixed. I plan to have my attorney call her on Wednesday to tell her that I'm not available and that if she needs to reach me she can call him.<P>In two weeks time I plan a proposal with options... I may wait longer.<P>What a nasty game... I have no stomach for such... I like you would rather be living the happy active life... It's been too long since I've been fishing or backpacking or out on the motorcycle or sailboat... I stopped a lot of that because I got tired of doing it alone [excuse?].... next time maybe I won't have to if there is a next time...I'd rather have a friend first and sex later.<P>Too old too soon, too late smart.<P>Wish I'd remembered to eat dinner.<P>Hasta luego<BR>