I should never have read the paper today. First there was the article about the med student who killed the MM she was seeing. Then the article about the former governor who left his wife after 25 years for an OW, changed professions several times, and even his hairstyle. The parallels to my H were striking - although at least my H's affair didn't make the front page.<P>And then, there was the story of the tv anchor couple whose marriage broke up, followed by their co-anchorship. The article actually said that their friends insist that it was not an affair, that it is more common for people to gradually realize they are not in love any longer after being together for almost 30 years. That statement can be interpreted, I think, in only two ways: either it was intentionally sarcastic (my guess), or the author must think the readers are really, really naive. Even in my most naive days, not only would I not have believed that, but I would never have believed that people a few years from retirement in a position such as they held would jeopordize their jobs and their position in the community, etc. if there were no affair. Not to mention the fact that they admit that two or three years before they separated, they were planning on a retirement together.

Nellie,<P>I am continually amazed at the viewpoint of the press and the public in general in regards to infidelity. There's this mentality that if it's "true love" then it's OK, no matter who it hurts. I see this so much on TV and in movies. I don't know if you've ever watched "Dawson's Creek" but it's one of those nighttime teeny-bopper soap operas. Anyway, on one episode, one of the character's aunts was on the show and she had left her husband many years ago for another man and it talked about how wonderful her 2nd marriage was. How in love they were. Her 2nd H had died by this time, but she gave advice to her niece that you have to "go for it" (in other words..."true love"). It made me physically ill. No wonder so many people find it so easy to drop their spouses and children. We have this notion that romantic infatuation is true love. I don't believe that. I believe true love is based on mutual respect and regard for one another. It's NOT based on lies, deceit, pain, etc. Romantic infatuation is a great feeling for as long as it lasts, but I don't think it can last forever. At some point, real life has to set in. Now I'm not saying that those feelings of romance completely fade, but I do believe that all consuming feeling does. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm tired of the media glamorizing affairs and romantic infatuation. I'm sick to death of it. I have come to believe that when lengthy marriages end, it is one spouse substituting romantic infatuation for true love. Probably those co-anchors WERE in some kind of affair situation. I doubt they would admit it to the world. At any rate, I don't know what all this means, except I'm sick of infidelity being seen as acceptable behavior.<P><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Keridwen,<P>I am sick of infidelity being seen as acceptable also. I do not understand why the media seems to want to hide the fact that almost all endings of long term marriages involve infidelity.

I agree. Our society is suffering from something I've heard referred to as the "Disney Syndrome." The goal in life is to live happily ever after at whatever the cost. Happily ever after usually requires a spouse/lover/true love. I mean, Cinderella's sisters cut off their toes in order to fit in the glass slippers. Can you say desperate? There is too much emphasis on the romantic love and not enough placed on the steady, satisfying love that comes from years of being together. Romantic infatuation is more fun. My ex left me because he said we have no chemistry. He says that he has chemistry with the girl he is with and that he is at peace. He made a strange statement almost justifying his infidelity: "We don't find love; love finds us." How trashy.

Is infidelity the chicken or the egg? People can certainly take a lot of the steam out of this question by staying the heck out of other people's marriages unless they are family or a professional--and especially where there is even the slightest possibility of an EA or PA developing.

What I think is too funny is the way that tv and movies glamorize single parenting--or at least make it look easy. TV parents have no trouble finding jobs, or supporting their kids on whatever little income they have. Their kids don't have to worry about being left home alone after school, or being shuttled to daycare, or being babysat by the TV. There are plenty of hugs and kisses to go around, everyone is happy, nobody throws temper tantrums and cries because life is so stress-free.<P>TV kids have accepted the truth about the missing parent, it's cool, everything is resolved, and that's the way life is. Huggies and kissies.<P>Sometimes I wake up from a bad dream in the middle of the night and keep thinking "This is just a soap opera--it's not really happening."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bernzini:<BR><B>Their kids don't have to worry about being left home alone after school, or being shuttled to daycare, or being babysat by the TV.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>At least insult isn't added to injury here like in Britain. There, lots and lots of single mothers go to <I>prison</I>. Why? Because they have to use the TV to babysit their kids, but they can't afford the TV tax. Inspections with detectors find the unlicensed sets in use, and police arrest and prosecute the mothers.<P>

Thank the maker for our WRITTEN Constitution. Britain just makes their's up as they go along!<P><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Have you all noticed something else? Even if a couple DOES admit to infidelity, they get lots and lots of publicity. It's almost like a reward for crappy behavior.<P>Take Michael Douglas and his (excuse me) new trophy slut wife Catherine Zeta-Jones. Ever since they got married, she's been plastered all over every magazine at the check-out counter. Of course, none of these publications will say just HOW she got her "hubby".<P>Then there is Meg Ryan. You should see the spin she was putting on her marriage---after the fact. Typical affair rationalizing. <P>Problem is, so many of the journalists and people writing these shows have had affairs of their own. <P>Incidentally, I went to a seminar held at Emory University that discusses the long term effects of childhood trauma on the brain. They define trauma as abuse, neglect, or losing one or both parents. They didn't mention divorce. I guess they didn't want the audience to feel too guilty. It didn't occur to me until afterward to ask if their definition of "losing a parent" meant divorce as well as death. <P>In any case, there is evidence to show that there is PERMANENT changes in the brain that occur due to such trauma at a young age that make it much more likely for these children to suffer severe depression at some point in their adulthood. Basically, the stress response for these people is predictably much higher than those people who did not suffer such trauma as children.<P>It is like a vicious cycle. Parents get divorced because of depression. Kids suffer trauma. They suffer severe depression as adults, they get divorced, and so on. It seems to me that people are trying to "self-medicate" with affairs, alcohol, drugs, whatever will give them a high at the moment. I know it was true for me when I had my affair. <P>There really is just no incentive anymore for people to work on their marriages. <P>

What an interesting topic! I am 43, when i was a kid. all the shows were about family and marriage. Now in todays society, every other movie, soap or show is about infidelity and disposable marriages! I now have, count em' 7 friends, plus myself going through a divorce. None of us are bad people and each of us had been married 3 to 12 years (wow!). The excuses vary from, "I need to find myself, its just not the same, I'm bored, I need a fresh start, at this point in my life I want to be selfish, etc." ALL BULLCRAP! 30 years ago, it was my spouse is a drunk or beats me or fools around (legitimate problems).<P>Now it is a multitude of phony crap. Sound bitter? Maybe I am, but whether its media or insanity, ego or selfishness, somethings wrong. Would love to hear what everyone else thinks! T.J.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TOM JONES:<BR><B>What an interesting topic! I am 43, when i was a kid. all the shows were about family and marriage. Now in todays society, every other movie, soap or show is about infidelity and disposable marriages!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A critic said TV has degenerated from showing family life as it imagined it should be (<I>Father Knows Best</I>) to showing it as it is (say, <I>All in the Family</I>) to showing how bad it can be (<I>Springer</I>) to actively trying to wreck it (<I>Temptation Island</I>). <P>Frustrated with a spouse? or Feel like they shouldn't be frustrated with you? Welcome to no-fault divorce, where you spin the big wheel and see if either of you come out nearly as well as your lawyers.

I agree with the above posts, the population is seeing more and more divorce. So, why so much now? I think partly is the fact that there are a lot of women out working now. Because of this there are a lot of women having affairs. You take your basic "dad" that worked his hours and then went directly home. He didn't have the opportunity to meet somebody else. Now, there is almost just as many women in the work forces and he has a better opportunity to meet another woman. I'm sure no fault makes a difference also. But, what's the solution? You can change laws that makes it more difficult to get divorced but you can't "force" people to stay marriaged can you? I know for a fact that if I was "forced" to stay married to my ex I would have done something drastic. I also know that if my husband didn't love me, couldn't love me and was completely miserable that I sure as heck wouldn't want anybody to "force" him to stay in our marriage. So, I agree it's too common now adays and it's too easy but I also feel that nobody should be forced to stay in a marriage.

To Sisyphus, Boy was that good. The TV thing! Also, no fault a/k/a no blame, a/k/a no responsibility, a/k/a no guilt. Yikes! <P>Being someone one who works all day with lawyers, but isnt one, I can attest, that only the lawyers win in a divorce!! T.J.

Sisyphus, you mentioned the new show <I>Temptation Island</I>. I can't even bring myself to watch that show. I even have a hard time sitting through the commercials promoting it. Being sensitive to divorce and the end of relationships, I just find it in extremely bad taste for the TV networks to be promoting such a thing as breaking up relationships just for thier friggin' ratings.

I had a talk with a lady friend of mine who is from India. I was talking to her about her home land and I asked how you met your husband?? She said she didn't meet him until the wedding. She knew him just 5 minutes before they were married. It was arranged by her parents. I damn near fell out of the chair. She said she knows of no one that has ever gotten a divorce in India. I think she said she was Hindu. She said if a woman ever had an affair it was the mans RIGHT to basiclly burn her at the stake. If a man had the affair, she would have to prove it in court (which is hard) and all he would have to say is that the wife refused him sex and the court would automaticaly find for him and against her. <BR>If however they did find for the woman, 'Its off with willie'' Ouch.. <P>So I quess what I'm saying is some cultures grow up worse and some don't grow up at all. It never seems to grow up better.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BonnieSept:<BR><B>I'm sure no fault makes a difference also. But, what's the solution? You can change laws that makes it more difficult to get divorced but you can't "force" people to stay marriaged can you?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps it <I>would</I> be pointless to <I>force</I> people to stay married, but it might help if people were required to at least <I>think</I> about what they were doing.<P>In the state of Ohio (where I live), the courts have the authority to mandate counseling, which in theory could create an opportunity for marriages to be restored. I think this is a good idea.<P>Unfortunately, although I have petitioned for conciliation with my wife, my lawyers have told me that I am being foolish. First, my lawyers tell me to expect the courts to deny my petition. And second, even if the courts grant it, all it means is that someone (presumably me) gets assigned the responsibility of paying for counseling. There are no adverse consequences to my wife if she just refuses to show up.<BR>

Oh man (or should I say, oh woman). I think I'm going to scream if I hear one more person blame those AWFUL working women for all of the problems on this planet.<P>No, Mr. Dad may not have been tempted by the women he worked with. He could hire a prostitute. Infidelity has been happening for a very, very long time. <P>As an engineer, I work with all men. And I mean ALL men, and have for almost 20 years. I have been intimate with ONE man I worked with in all of these years. Never even dated any of the men I worked with before or since then.

I can't even touch the office thing - I think the hard feelings come from most affairs being office related. But back to the subject...<P>It's funny that you bring this up because I rarely watch tv, but the one night I did there ended up being a plethera of shows involving divorce or affairs, starting with Drew Carey's dad's affair show, then some cop show where the man ends up drowning himself after an affair and murdering her husband, and ending with this true life documentary about a murder case that revolved around an affair where the women involved were blaming eachother for it in court. I was depressed to tears that night and had to call my sister for help.<P>Then of course there's Once and Again, and everyone's so happy, and the ex-H is still in EVERYONE's good graces and his choices seem to be just so accepted by all, and all the other ex's still talk and communicate (unlike mine who walked out and will not speak with me, ever). Well, actually that's not too bad a show because it at least shows the reality of how messed up the kids get, but even still, the kids are shown as being accepting when in reality they usually lose it all, their world, their lifestyle, self-esteem. We are just bombarded with people chasing after fun and their selfish whims.<P>All I know is it's not ok, my little boys are hurt beyond repair from a man they never see anymore who says he's a good father. A man I realized tonight that I missed while I was looking out the window making dinner - remembering how I used to love to see his car drive up from work, even tho I wouldn't have him back now if my life depended on it. I hate this so much.<P>------------------<BR>P.S. Hi TJ, sorry to see you here now, but I hope you can find some great support and make a few friends.<P>Kathy<P>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited January 29, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited January 29, 2001).]

wierded out,<P>I understand how "office affairs" could be a hot button for you and alot of people. Even if we assume it's true (and I will for the sake of argument), it is still a far stretch to say that it is women's fault because they are in the workplace. It takes two to tango. Like I said, I've worked with all men for many years and do not feel any temptation to become involved with them

You know what I am thinking about working women and affairs. . .<P>Most women these days have to work, there is no doubt about it. To be married and stay home with little ones while your husband is the breadwinner takes A LOT of sacrifice--I know couples who do it, and they have to keep a very strict budget. My friends have three children, he works in a PC manufacturing plant drawing decent wages, and she manages the apartments I live in--which allows her to stay home with her babies. It is humbling to see her wearing the same two or three outfits in her wardrobe. It is just the economy these days, and it's sad. But it's the way it is.<P>I would tend to agree with TS--because a woman works does not necessarily mean she is available for an affair or flirting with temptation. <P>I had to work the whole time I have had children. I was in the military, working in a job that was primarily with men. Never once was I tempted--I aint no dog, and I worked with some fine looking men. But to me, they were co-workers, brothers, buddies, not potential lovers, and some of them became very close to me. But that's about it. They were gentlemen. In fact, it was a large compliment to me that I was treated like "one of the guys" by the men in my company. I could and did pull my own weight on the job, in the field, and I even played soccer on an all-male (plus me) team. Oh, sure there were times when I was deployed with other units and I got a couple of hits. All I had to do was say no, sometimes not too politely. But it didn't hurt my feelings.<P>I loved my job. I made sure, however, that I made sure that my husband and my children were prioritized far above my job. Which was very difficult because I was a soldier 24/7, and when duty called, I had to drop everything. That's why I decided to leave it.<P>What I think that a working woman needs to do is have the resolve BEFORE she goes into the workplace that she is working to a) support her family b) make something of herself, which requires attention to the job. The minute she finds herself giving a higher priority to the workplace over her family, it's time to stand back and take a good look at what's happening. I find that when a woman starts pouring her whole self into her job over her family, then they become less important. And it is easy for a lover, a coworker, to come onto the scene as a comfort and confidante at first. <P>I don't know how it is for a single working woman. I guess I have never really been one.