I met someone in December and finally got up the courage to leave my H. I had been told I was incapable of love and unworthy of being loved for so long, to have someone express feelings for me that I could actually believe in was just what I needed to gather the strength to get out.<P>So now there is an OM. (Yes, after I told myself I didn't want to date until the divorce was final, and didn't even think I wanted to after that!) I only saw him a couple of times (these were NOT dates!) before I moved out, and there was no sexual relationship, however my STBX is alleging I had an affair (like he has done a dozen times before) and bringing up my past depression and the fact that I stopped taking my prescribed medication. (I knew it wasn't working, HE knew it wasn't working - but now he just sees "ammo" and is forging ahead with it.) He feels he should get full custody because of it ... because, as he puts it, I have mental problems and I'm in denial and not getting treatment.<P>Sorry to break the news to him, but since resolving to leave him (I had already been apartment shopping before I met OM - just hadn't made the leap) I have not suffered from depression! Over the past two years, counselor after counselor told me why I was depressed - it was from staying in that relationship!! (Which meant time for a new counselor for me, as he didn't want me to leave him!) I am still seeing my most recent psychologist and he has known for some time that I've been off the meds (Prozac) and if it were an issue, I'm quite certain he would have handed me a 'scrip.<P>I'm in Michigan and my husband and I have been separated for over a month. He took our kids and moved them into his mothers' house one weekend, and I had to get a signed court order to even see my children before the holidays. We now have court-ordered parenting time consisting of four days with Mom, four days with Dad, etc. indefinitely and it really bites. (The kids stay with his mom during his time, and have the rule of the roost. My first day of four with them is just butting heads and re-establishing the rules!) Anywho ...<P>Our children are ages 3 and 5, and we both want full physical custody. (Let me rephrase: I want custody, and his *mother* wants custody.) I do not feel he will compromise in the least (he always threatened that he'd get the kids if I left him), so I think after our initial meeting with the Friend of the Court conciliator, we will both have to go through the interviews and home visits and such -- that's basically what I've heard from others who have been through it.<P>Can anyone here who has been through conciliation help me out with what to expect, what I should prepare for, what to bring or get proof of, etc.? I've been a work-at-home parent for over 4 years and I've been much more involved in the children's care, school, health, social events, etc. but he is mad about me leaving him and will do or say anything to make himself look better. And his mommy will back up everything HE says.<P>Thanks in advance!!<p>[This message has been edited by T-L-C (edited January 29, 2001).]

No Advice, Just Kudos for getting the strength to get out of the abuse..<P>I know that it wasn't an easy decision having<BR>been there..and if your lucky you may be able<BR>to use the depession and your counseling as <BR>a benefit to your advantage..your having been<BR>on prozac while you lived with him..and not<BR>needing it now that you've moved out..<BR>and if you have "proof" of the abuse you<BR>could possibably win a custody battle..<BR>If he is also abusive to the children...<P>My prayers are with you...<BR>

Ah, page two.<P>Yes, I am still involved with the OM. I'm being more careful with this relationship than any other I've had. I am actually friends with this man - my STBX and I sort of skipped that part.<P>I feel I am growing more as a person because of the OM being a part of my life, than I would without him in my life. He is intelligent, has the most gentle way about him, and I could listen to him talk for hours. The things that he knows about healing and how he expresses them ... it's much different than my counseling sessions. I can share with him things I could never share with family or friends. There is a strong emotional and spiritual relationship between us. The OM and I are friends above all else; we've been through a lot of the same trials in life, we've shared fears and concerns about being together at this difficult time in my life, and talked on into the night. I may not be able to convince anyone else in my life that it is right, but I have prayed and soul-searched and analyzed, and when no one is listening but God, it still feels like I'm doing the right thing.<P>Less than a week after moving out, I found out that there was an OW. I happened to log into Yahoo under his screen name, and this person started chatting with me ... and with shocked interest I started getting more information from her than I really needed to see ... this led me to get into his email account and WOW what a surprise. I can find no proof that he actually met with this (married) woman in person, but they planned out a visit to the very finest detail, including date (my birthday!!!), time, place, what they would DO (more detail than I needed to see), and even the lie my H would tell me so he could get out of the house without me suspecting ...<P>So I've had a bit of stress to deal with in the past few weeks. *weak grin*<p>[This message has been edited by T-L-C (edited April 07, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThornedRose:<BR><B>and if you have "proof" of the abuse you<BR>could possibably win a custody battle..<BR>If he is also abusive to the children...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is overly strict IMO, but not abusive directly to the children. The worst is what they have seen him do to me. For that I have no witnesses.<P>I told so few people about the abuse before I left him - I didn't want anyone to know. There is really only one person who could testify on my behalf, and it is a person my H hates so much I know he would do anything to discredit her. He knows enough about her past (damn me for telling him so much, to think I trusted him!!) and would not hesitate to hurt her, to make me very leery of asking her to testify.<P>One of these days I'm going to have to stop being afraid of what he *might* do ...<BR>

TLC,<P>Just a quick question...was your H physically abusive or was it verbal and emotional?<P>I do know that when you've been in an abusive relationship, if you jump into another one before gaining back self-esteem that was lost, it can be a big mistake. My H was abusive for the entire 10 1/2 years we lived together (physically, mentally and verbally). I had very little self-esteem, if any. We've been apart for a little over a year, and my self-esteem still hasn't completely returned. Granted, I have come a long way and have a lot to be proud of myself for but there's still a tiny part of me that tries to see the faults instead of the accomplishments. <P>Also, in a custody battle, a judge will sometimes look at whether there is an OP. In my case, I asked the judge if he would order that my kids not be around the OW. He granted it but also stated that I couldn't have any man that I'm romantically involved with around my sons. This was only temporary and didn't bother me because there was no OM, but it took us 6 months to get back into court. (And No, my kids still haven't met OW). <P>Just some things to think about.<P>Good luck!<BR>Mitzi

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitzi:<BR><B>Just a quick question...was your H physically abusive or was it verbal and emotional?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>All of the above. I am very concerned that my H will pull something that would keep me from being able to see the OM when the children are around. My children need to see how their mother deserves to be treated -- they think it's okay to yell at me and hit me when they are angry. If he tries something like this, that is exactly what I will tell the judge. My children deserve so much more than they have been exposed to -- they need a model of what a relationship should be like.<P>Not that I would ever EVER put the OM before my kids, he has been told that in no uncertain terms -- I'm not saying I want to be able to have the OM stay the night or anything remotely like that -- he wants to be a part of my children's lives and I want them to see us behaving as friends, as people who care about each others' feelings.

No, your kids should absolutely NOT be around the OM. They have enough to deal with with their parents divorcing. I certainly hope your H does do something to prevent that. One thing that every single counselor my H or I talked to agreed upon was that children should not be introduced to any third parties for a very long time.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-L-C:<BR><B>Yes, I am still involved with the OM. Despite what just about everyone who cares about me says about it ... I'm supposed to be alone right now, rediscover myself ... blah blah ... easy to say when you're not living it, and I love them all for being concerned; but this is one relationship I'm actually being more careful with than any other I've had. I am actually friends with this man - my STBX and I sort of skipped that part.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The use of the words "blah blah" here is a <I><B>red flag</B></I>. Whenever you dismiss out of hand an idea that has the acceptance of large numbers of experienced and smart people, there is a strong potential that you are doing so without having examined it properly. That's not to say that you might not decide differently, but you should only do so with clarity, which I don't think you have.<P>Your STBXH certainly sounds bad enough. And perhaps he <I>was</I> the cause of your depression. But you sound infatuated with OM. Of course, there is a natural high there, but it's also open to question whether that high isn't a little too high. Especially since the STBXH had pulled you so low. I have learned the heartstrings are like the strings of any other instrument, and when they're pulled far in one direction and released, they cross the neutral point and go only slightly less far in the opposite direction, vibrating from one side to the other for an unpredictable period before returning to equilibrium.<P>I'm reluctant to push further, not knowing you or the actual heavy details of your situation. But I would urge you to stay with therapist, and try to tell the therapist the things that you are now telling OM ... if you're leaving stuff out in therapy, those gaps are keeping your therapist from doing what is best for you. If you don't feel like you can say those things to your therapist, then by all means get another therapist.<BR>

T-L-C<P>okay...from experience of where you are right now with OM...<P>My stbxh wasn't physically abusive...but very verbally abusive..and emotionally abusive..<BR>and I met an OM..he was wonderful..we were the best of friends..talked ALL the time for HOURS and HOURS on end..very gentle, very loving..but...having come from an abusive background..I questioned everything..sure he made me feel things I'd never felt before..on the emotional level that I'd never had w/ stbx, nor anyone ever in my past...and <BR>one part of me wanted to jump feet first and just run with it..but..another side of me watched..the little things..and we aren't seeing each other anymore..we don't even talk much anymore..but I was able to grow ALOT and learn alot about myself during that time..<P>Guard your heart...because right now it's very vunerable..and since you are so close to him..emotionally..he can hurt you really bad..and if you haven't healed emotionally from the abuse..then you could end up w/ someone worse than your stbxh...and remember to watch out for wolves who come dressed in sheeps clothing..I don't want you to get hurt again..and I'm sure your friends and family don't want that either..so be cautious..and guard your heart..VERY CLOSELY!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>I'm reluctant to push further, not knowing you or the actual heavy details of your situation. But I would urge you to stay with therapist, and try to tell the therapist the things that you are now telling OM ... if you're leaving stuff out in therapy, those gaps are keeping your therapist from doing what is best for you. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I appreciate your concern. I have had a lot of long nights wondering about this OM and praying for clarity because how I felt seemed so intense. I have been able to step back emotionally from how I felt in the very beginning, right after leaving H. I've been forced into considering other things with all of the court and custody stuff going on, and I've put spending time with friends and family before spending time with the OM, which isn't something I've done with guys I was <I>infatuated</I> with when I was younger. *gg*<P>I have been sharing everything with my current counselor, whom I like and can talk with. He knows about the abuse, the OM and everything. I am most concerned about my H reacting to the fact that I am involved with this particular man because I had spoken with him before I moved out, and although nothing happened, my H won't believe that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-L-C:<BR><B>I am most concerned about my H reacting to the fact that I am involved with this particular man because I had spoken with him before I moved out, and although nothing happened, my H won't believe that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You need to admit to yourself that what that was--was an <I><B>emotional affair</I></B>. That's what an affair is up until you go ahead and start in with the physical side.<P>Your husband is likely to focus on when the physical side started. But in reality, that emotional affair (EA) was the mud bog in the rocky road of your marriage. Whether you saw it or not, once you got into it, your marriage sunk hub deep. All your fault? Maybe, but likely not. Still, once you realize there is one, or even the potential for one, you're supposed to run like h*ll. That's what your husband should blame you for (of course we know your STBXH has had one or more of his own--but it's you that we're talking about right now. Have you considered a subpoena to <I>Yahoo</I> to help you prove your case?--they do keep <I>detailed</I> records).<P>The moment there is an EA, you begin the process of detaching from your husband emotionally. Even his efforts to reach out to you are rebuffed. He'll feel compelled to <I>do something</I>, but almost anything he does only makes things worse. Maybe that started with the first EA, because I bet there have been others.<P>You have already <I>rewritten</I> your marital history to say you had <I>nothing</I> really with your STBX. I assure you that's wrong. I don't know the history of the emotional abuse ... where it came from (how many men just wake up one day and say "I think I'll use my sharp tongue and withheld affection to destroy the love of my life"?), but the fact is you two fell into an ugly pattern ... and it took <I>both</I> of you to let it get that way. The physical stuff? The first time that <I>ever</I> happens, you get <I>out</I>, and if you <I>ever</I> go back, it's only after H has made good progress in therapy. It's too late for you to do that, but someone else may read this and remember.<P>You and STBXH can duel to the death over kids, money and everything else. Or someone can make the first move to treat the other like a human being, admit what their part in it is, and try to ease the situation. Even though he sounds like a perfect nightmare, you need to think about your kids. If that means you fight like heck, then you do it. But if that means that you take a good hard look at yourself <I>and</I> him, and how you got along together, maybe you can come up with a few things that help all of you.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 30, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-L-C:<BR><B>I am very concerned that my H will pull something that would keep me from being able to see the OM when the children are around. My children need to see how their mother deserves to be treated.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're kids shouldn't meet him until you have a ring and a wedding date. Before that, it's psychologically perilous for them, regardless of what they would see (in fact, the better a guy he is, the worse it would be if he were suddenly out of their lives).<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThornedRose:<BR><B>... and I met an OM..he was wonderful..we were the best of friends..talked ALL the time for HOURS and HOURS on end..very gentle, very loving..but...having come from an abusive background..I questioned everything..sure he made me feel things I'd never felt before..on the emotional level that I'd never had w/ stbx, nor anyone ever in my past...and one part of me wanted to jump feet first and just run with it..but..another side of me watched..the little things..and we aren't seeing each other anymore..we don't even talk much anymore..but I was able to grow ALOT and learn alot about myself during that time.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I didn't want a relationship, wasn't looking for one, knew I didn't need one -- just wanted to get out of the house and visit with a friend from high school (it was never more than that). Having feelings for the OM scared the daylights out of me. I have discussed it with a lot of friends and family and of course my psychologist.<P>I was scared about how strongly I felt in the beginning, and shared this with a few people including the OM. I have since been able to step back, and look at things in a more realistic and less idealistic fashion. We're not talking about the rest of our lives, we are talking week to week now.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>But in reality, that emotional affair (EA) was the mud bog in the rocky road of your marriage. Whether you saw it or not, once you got into it, your marriage sunk hub deep. ...<P>I don't know the history of the emotional abuse ... where it came from (how many men just wake up one day and say "I think I'll use my sharp tongue and withheld affection to destroy the love of my life"?), but the fact is you two fell into an ugly pattern ...<P>Or someone can make the first move to treat the other like a human being, admit what their part in it is, and try to ease the situation.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'll try to address these points. First, I know about emotional affairs ... I had one in early '00 with the first person I ever confided in that there had even been abuse ... I had been so totally withdrawn and had not told a soul, even my best friend. He was 2000 miles away and married, but I thought I was in love. My H found out about it, and things got very bad and then very good ... almost to the point where I thought we could make it. Then, the abuse and threats and accusations started again, and I resolved to leave. I saw the OM twice before I moved out, and there was no EA to interfere with the marriage ... I was not emotionally involved with him until the night before I got out. He had nothing to do with me leaving except when my H found out I met a MALE friend for dinner that week and blew up at me in front of the kids (not like he could stand me with any of my 'bad influence' female friends), I couldn't take any more.<P>I don't think that it's all his fault, I know it isn't ... but I do feel I've made the lion's share of the effort to make it work, I've stayed through hell trying. I tried to be who he wanted me to be, nothing was ever good enough. I'll never be his mommy. I was accused of so much ... looking back I wonder how much of it was because he was feeling guilty ...<P>I have been trying to get him to talk about custody and what's best for the kids. I never set out to take the kids from him, but he is all bent because I finally took the abuse public. He won't listen to reason. I have tried and tried to get us into a session with a counselor just so we could talk about custody, but he won't do it. I won't give him what he wants and he's mad about it. I will give him plenty of visitation, but I won't give up the children I gave up my career to stay home with ... they are my life and I've got the proof that I've been the one there for them. I wouldn't use them against him, but he's been filling their heads with who-knows-what and when they come to my house after four days with him, they are so angry -- they hit me and yell at me so much for the first 24 hours, then seem to settle down, but they aren't 'themselves' again until it is almost time for them to go back to their dad, and it is killing me.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>No, your kids should absolutely NOT be around the OM. They have enough to deal with with their parents divorcing. I certainly hope your H does do something to prevent that. One thing that every single counselor my H or I talked to agreed upon was that children should not be introduced to any third parties for a very long time. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I waited until after I had calmed down to respond. *g*<P>I understand your concern. However, your statement could apply to the children not being allowed to be around myself and my best (female) friend and see us interacting. I am not talking about romantic interaction -- but now that I've read Sisyphus' response to the children being around the OM/friend, I understand better what you mean ... my first reaction was to take offense, my educated reaction is to consider your advice more carefully. And I will.

TLC,<P>I understand..I wasn't looking for one either..I was back in college..and working one me..when it hit me like a ton of bricks..<BR>I always was terrified of my feelings for OM..and still am..even though I haven't talked to nor seen him in awhile..(I seen his daughter last night at the skating rink when I took my kids skating..she was chasing the kids around playing w/ them..and when she fell all her friends ran to me to come help her..and I did..dried her tears and hugged her to let her know she'd be okay) that was hard..and it brought out feelings I've been trying to deal with and bury..knowing that it's over..I also talk to my counselor about how I feel too..and it helps but, it doesn't make the hurt go away any faster..I also share things with my friends..not to much my family only because I don't talk to them much..never have been really close to them..<P>But, like I said before..guard your heart..even those week to week things seem to take on a mind of their own sometimes..<P>And Sys---it is something that has to be admitted to that there was/is an EA..and I know I have admitted to mine..and what caused it..I know also that it wasn't ALL my stbxh's fault..I take responsiblilty for my actions in all of it..(it's him that doesn't acknowledge responsibility for any of it) <BR>but, I can't agree with you that her and her stbx had something in the past..<P>I know that having really looked at WHY I married my stbx..it was for the wrong reasons..not because I was in love w/ him...but because of his relationship with my daughter..and I was told by everyone how NO man could ever love her like their own like he did..especially when she wasn't his child..I tried to end the relationship many times before we ever married..and he'd be like..what about MY relationship w/ your daughter...what about OUR feelings..how will this effect her?? I'm the only dad she's ever known..had I had the inner strength to end it then..I wouldn't be where I am now..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThornedRose:<BR><B>I can't agree with you that her and her stbx had something in the past..<P>I know that having really looked at WHY I married my stbx..it was for the wrong reasons..not because I was in love w/ him...but because of his relationship with my daughter.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not all troubled marriages are like that, though. If you had more than normal misgivings and still went in, that makes you different from most marriages. You also have a very specific factor to point to, unlike most folks. The <I>rewriting of the marital history</I> is a very spiteful, if understandably natural, process. The better the man, the worse it hurts him. That hardly seems fair, either.<P>Essentially, you look at all the past deposits into your love bank, and decide that the currency was counterfeit and must be deducted. So instead of a significant (but still realistic) deficit, the husband now faces total, complete and utter bankruptcy. Maybe this is fair given all his failings. But somehow it doesn't seem that way from this side of the teller window.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>Essentially, you look at all the past deposits into your love bank, and decide that the currency was counterfeit and must be deducted. So instead of a significant (but still realistic) deficit, the husband now faces total, complete and utter bankruptcy. Maybe this is fair given all his failings. But somehow it doesn't seem that way from this side of the teller window.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ouch. <I>That's</I> an illustration I'm going to have to remember. It's <I>exactly</I> what happened to me.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> Ouch. <I>That's</I> an illustration I'm going to have to remember. It's <I>exactly</I> what happened to me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm with you on that one. Shows why you were right to keep 'ol Sisyphus hangin' around here .<P>Steve<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StillHers:<BR><B> I'm with you on that one. Shows why you were right to keep 'ol Sisyphus hangin' around here .</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, yeah, thanks for reminding me. Can't let up now...<P>Hey, Sisyphus, you've got rocks for banes! <BR>