<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janiee:<BR><B>"I thnk a very different thing about men and women is that when women think about doing something we think 'what would be the best for US', where as men ofter (NOT ALWAYS) think 'what do I want to do today'<BR>What we women would like is a little more "Us" and "we" thinking.<BR>Have any men out there sensed this or am I simply throwing flames around??<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't really feel that this is a "man" or "woman" thing here. I know in my marriage, that I was the "us" kind of a person, and she was the "I" kind of a person, and that just does not seem to work well in the end.

Kam6318 - Specifically I have asked him to become more aware of who he is, where he is going in the next coupe years, be able to figure out what he wants. <BR>He is an Olympic speed skater and now he is also trying to work another job,(to meet our morgage, living expenses, etc.) He knows his chance of making the next Olympic team is slim and he continually gets fustrated trying to do what he wants (2 jobs, hobbies, relationship) he often takes on too much and then gets fustrated at himself and it effects our relationship. I have asked him to work on this. I have also asked hime to do some relationship building things, read and communicate, look at this site, learn how to build back trust in someone.<P>Sisphus - I'm just talking in general. And you others are right maybe it is not always a man and woman thing but I do know many more men like this with their wives. So how do we work on thinking in the "we" terms?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janiee:<BR><B>Sisphus - I'm just talking in general. And you others are right maybe it is not always a man and woman thing but I do know many more men like this with their wives. So how do we work on thinking in the "we" terms?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Speed skating <I>ain't</I> helping. Everybody would love to be a <I>friggin'</I> Olympian, but where it comes at the cost of your marriage, it ain't worth it. It's for the single person, or the person who has a real shot and a supportive spouse. <P>I think speed skating is too solitary. Suppose he shifts out of it ... how does he fill the void? Eric Heiden went into cycling. That's something where you could train together (especially if you have an expensive ultra-light bike, and he's willing to ride something of a pig, or carry a weighted pack). <P>You could get started with a bike of your own, and ask him to ride with you--it'll be good for his quads. You don't have to make an ultimatum that he get out of the skating--just a gradual shift, with the two of you spending time together that way. <P>Rollerblading or recreational ice skating might also be good.<P>That's just one idea. Can you look where you believe he's thinking <I><B>I</I></B> and find places where you could attract him to a more-or-less <I>we</I> position? I bet you can.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 31, 2001).]

I'm really not trying to hassle you, but these are not specific, measurable "tasks".<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Specifically I have asked him to become more aware of who he is, where he is going in the next coupe years, be able to figure out what he wants. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is really fuzzy..."become more aware of who he is". Not that it is not a good goal, but it is hard to define. This is also not a thing you do in a week or a month...for most people it is a life-long process. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He is an Olympic speed skater and now he is also trying to work another job,(to meet our morgage, living expenses, etc.) He knows his chance of making the next Olympic team is slim and he continually gets fustrated trying to do what he wants (2 jobs, hobbies, relationship) he often takes on too much and then gets fustrated at himself and it effects our relationship. I have asked him to work on this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tell him exasctly how his frustration effects your relationship & ask him to stop those specific actions. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have also asked hime to do some relationship building things, read and communicate, look at this site, learn how to build back trust in someone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Who cares how you build back trust in "someone"? Tell him what will let you build back trust.<P>I think maybe what you want is for him to quit the Olympic idea & commit to getting a "regular" job, partly bcs of the time/energy, but also bcs it is a trigger for you & stirs up bad feelings over his affair. But, while you feel OK telling him it bugs you, you do not feel justified in asking him to choose you over the Olympics. And, maybe he would not make that choice anyway....<P>Hard problem to have. However, if the Olympics is an enormous stumbling block for your relationship, maybe you do need to ask him to decide. If so, explain your reasons and ask him straight out...at least that way your cards are all on the table.<P>

I have pointed out month after month that for anybody doing what he is doing is too much. Let me explaing also that he comes from a work-acholic family who often complaine about being overly tired.<BR>I have explained that a main need of mine is to come home on weekdays to a fun, relaxing, positive atsomphers. But because he is trying to do it all, I don't come home to that.<BR>He does recoginize his upbringing, he does see that he often takes on too much then kicks himself, but as someone said this is a major life change, and for him to pull away from the Olympics - something he has done for 20 years and that he gets paid for it- is a very hard thing to do.<BR>This is why partly our recovery has taken soooo long.<BR>We are going to a counslor next week hopefully to learn to go through these changes together!<BR>Thanks all.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janiee:<BR><B>I have pointed out month after month that for anybody doing what he is doing is too much.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ooooh. Doesn't that sound just like a lovebuster? <I>Disrespectful Judgment</I> and nagging all rolled up into one. Of course, he has an <I>annoying activity</I>, so it's not one-sided. And perhaps the conflct is fueled by <I>selfish demands</I> from you both.<P>You'll find yourself (and him) in the descriptions located right here: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html</A> <P>A while back you should have worked out another angle to come at this one from.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 31, 2001).]

I guess I was not very clear. After the A I realized how much his skating had hurt us with time away and him putting his needs first/and me putting his needs first. <BR>We talked about it and agreed (joint policy) that it would have to be more balanced - not as much traveling, his skating not controling our lives, etc. <BR>We tried it for a year and I felt it was still too big with everything else he had going on. I have not nagged him about it, I try to tell him of my feelings and point out what it does to our relationship, and how great we could be without the big focus.<BR>He agrees but it seems too hard for him to give it up, so here I am feeling that I am the problem and maybe I should get out of his way so he can do everything he wants to do.<BR>I think he realizes it but doesn't want to take the right steps to a better marraige.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janiee:<BR><B>I think he realizes it but doesn't want to take the right steps to a better marraige.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, you both are just not looking at things from a shared perspective. He'll need to shift some, but so will you. BTW, Gottman says not every irreconcilable difference is <I>actually</I> detrimental to a marriage. It's the <I>four horsemen</I> of Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness and Stonewalling that make for the marital distress.<P>He has something he feels driven to do. As you try to chip away at it, his position hardens. If you were supportive of it, he might recognize what the sacrifice of your family life is doing to you both. But while it's a source of conflict, you're like two fists pressed against each other--there won't be any movement.<P>Are you trying to take something away from him as punishment for the affair? Note: I still don't identify with a <I>husband</I> pursuing an Olympic dream that's destroying his wife, but I'm trying to distinguish between an actual problem with that (some marriages can surely withstand it), and the potential that even after he made changes you still see him doing something he loves and want to kill it because he deserves to have it killed.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 31, 2001).]

Are you trying to take something away from him as punishment for the affair? Note: I still don't identify with a husband pursuing an Olympic dream that's destroying his wife, but I'm trying to distinguish between an actual problem with that (some marriages can surely withstand it), and the potential that even after he made changes you still see him doing something he loves and want to kill it because he deserves to have it killed.<P>Many people don't tealize what it is like living with an elite athlete. The closest I can compare is if your Husband or wife worked 70 hour wees and even when they were hope most things they were somewhat involved with their job. They can't stay out late, they cna't relax and get their mind off their job. If they do someone else will beat them.<BR>The other thing I did not mentioned when we got engaged it was somewhat talked about it ending the next year, yes that is when the A happened. But even if the A had not happened, I do want a change in our life.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janiee:<BR><B>Many people don't tealize what it is like living with an elite athlete. The closest I can compare is if your Husband or wife worked 70 hour wees and even when they were hope most things they were somewhat involved with their job. They can't stay out late, they cna't relax and get their mind off their job. If they do someone else will beat them. The other thing I did not mentioned when we got engaged it was somewhat talked about it ending the next year, yes that is when the A happened. But even if the A had not happened, I do want a change in our life.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well okay:<P>1. You were vague when you married him about his commitment to end his Olympic career. So was he. Now you both will need to compromise, because no one has the moral high ground.<P>2. There was an affair. His bad. It's done, and changes have been made to prevent it repeating. You must make sure that anything else you want of him has <I>nothing whasoever to do</I> with the affair, because you've already gotten concessions from him that you assumed at the time wouild satisfy you. The fact that they did not -- that's grounds for a new round of negotiations, but the affair <I>cannot figure in them</I>. That debt is paid.<P>3. You mentioned before his chances were slim. Slim as in not making the U.S. team, or slim as in not medaling vis-a-vis other countries? I think it matters. The second is <I>much less</I> reason to quit.<P>4. It seems you may have problems self-soothing, or maintaining relationships with family/friends that would compensate for his unavailability. You have a whole lifetime ahead of you, and he won't be doing this forever. Also, you went in with your eyes open. Can't you distract yourself elsewhere (not with an <I><B>OM</I></B>!) for a while until this shakes out? I think you need to see that that damn affair still sticks in your craw--and that is a problem for you both, but it's mainly your problem.<P>P.S. - on the slim chances, I now have gone back and read that it is a slim chance of making the team. I guess the question is <I>how slim</I>? You can't ask him to be realistic, because it's a <I>dream</I>, and if you take it away from him, he will never forgive you. But he <I>can</I> come to the decision to give it up on his own, and that decision should come from his own appraisal of his chances vis-a-vis the personal costs to <I><B>BOTH</I></B> of you.<P>BTW, there are three icons above each message you read. The one on the far right is "reply with quotes."<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 31, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> Well okay:<P>1. You were vague when you married him about his commitment to end his Olympic career. So was he. Now you both will need to compromise, because no one has the moral high ground.<P>2. There was an affair. His bad. It's done, and changes have been made to prevent it repeating. You must make sure that anything else you want of him has <I>nothing whasoever to do</I> with the affair, because you've already gotten concessions from him that you assumed at the time wouild satisfy you. The fact that they did not -- that's grounds for a new round of negotiations, but the affair <I>cannot figure in them</I>. That debt is paid.<P>3. You mentioned before his chances were slim. Slim as in not making the U.S. team, or slim as in not medaling vis-a-vis other countries? I think it matters. The second is <I>much less</I> reason to quit.<P>4. It seems you may have problems self-soothing, or maintaining relationships with family/friends that would compensate for his unavailability. You have a whole lifetime ahead of you, and he won't be doing this forever. Also, you went in with your eyes open. Can't you distract yourself elsewhere (not with an <I>OM</I></B>!) for a while until this shakes out? I think you need to see that that damn affair still sticks in your craw--and that is a problem for you both, but it's mainly your problem.<P>P.S. - on the slim chances, I now have gone back and read that it is a slim chance of making the team. I guess the question is <I>how slim</I>? You can't ask him to be realistic, because it's a <I>dream</I>, and if you take it away from him, he will never forgive you. But he <I>can</I> come to the decision to give it up on his own, and that decision should come from his own appraisal of his chances vis-a-vis the personal costs to <I><B>BOTH</I></B> of you.<P>BTW, there are three icons above each message you read. The one on the far right is "reply with quotes."<P>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 31, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Sisyphus, It seems like you really know your stuff, but one question I have is why is it that I can't ask him to be realistic because it is his dream? What about my dream. Why does that not count? What if I never forgive HIM for taking away my dream?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janiee:<BR><B>Sisyphus, It seems like you really know your stuff, but one question I have is why is it that I can't ask him to be realistic because it is his dream? What about my dream. Why does that not count? What if I never forgive HIM for taking away my dream?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A dream does not need a justification for it to exist. It should <I>never</I> be extinguished by another, especially by someone <I>we</I> love and who professes to <I>love</I> us.<P>As to your dream (deferred)--will it shrivel like a raisin in the sun? Maybe. If so, you need to get with him <I>soon</I> and make it clear what's going on--without any of the lovebusters. Wait for therapy where you have a referee.<P>Of course your dream <I><B>COUNTS</I></B>. It's <I>amazing</I> to me that we're at this place in our conversation right now, because Gottman says that the #1 cause of marital disharmony is dreams that are in conflict.<P>Now that we've got that figured out, I applaud your efforts to come to this realization of what's wrong in your marriage. Now comes the much easier part -- reconciling those dreams, provided you still have love in your hearts for each other. It seems harder, but it really isn't. The Gottman workshop in Seattle was astounding in this respect; and if the feelings my XW and I had when we left there had survived the first week back in Florida (when we tried but failed to find a therapist who used Gottman's methods, and thereafter failed to agree on <I>anyone</I>), I would still be married!

Thank you, I know we Do have the love in our hearts. I did tell him once before, but maybe your right (in therapy) to tell him how wonnderful our life will and can be without all the focus and that I'll be there to help and care for him.