On another thread I just admitted that at times in my marriage I literally answered to "a**hole". Usually I tried not to even show that it bothered me (bad plan, avoidance, gutlessness, call it what you will). <P>Once or twice I struck back with the "C" word (the "B" word hardly occurred to me, proportionality being a foreign concept--I reach first for the <I><B>H-bombs</I></B>), always to my regret. And at the last she did get a long harangue--which in fact ended with us sleeping in each other's arms for the first time in a long time (and the last time ever). <P>My wrongs were largely more subtle--she could hardly show anger (which believe me she had a lot of) without me trying to explain it away as an antidepressant imbalance or cortisone injection bounceback. In other words, I invalidated her feelings as being produced by her medication. <P>Even though she had debated in high school, I could also pretty much corner her at will--again, her feeling wasn't valid if I could trump it with <I>logic</I>--and you <I>almost always</I> can, especially when you get to pick or shift the starting premises. <P>Perhaps those were forms of verbal abuse from my side.<P>How many here have verbally abused or been abusers?

Good question. I suppose it would depend on who you asked. LOL.<P>I have grilled myself quite a bit to determine if I was the abuser or the abusee. Although some people on MB might assume I'm the abuser (based on some of my debates here), they might be surprised. You could say that this year was the first time in my life I've ever really stuck up for myself and let loose some very buried anger.<P>Honestly, I believe I was the abused. This is how I handled it...<P>When my ex would say something mean, I would tell him he was hurting me. If I defended myself in any way, he would escalate his "attacks". He would not stop until I was crying. I did point this out to him and many times asked him why he all of a sudden became calm only after I was crying. This went on for years. I kept jumping through hoops, thinking "if I only did this, he'd be nice to me." Didn't work. It was always something new.<P>After my confession, he would not stop if I started crying. I did not cry at the drop of a hat either. The simple fact is that my pain had no impact on him whatsoever. I would beg him to stop saying whatever he was saying to me, and he would not stop. If I tried to leave, he'd threaten to divorce me ASAP. duh. I SHOULD have said "BE MY GUEST!!!", but instead I stayed around and took it. Alot of the anger you see me display here is anger at myself for putting up with this behavior for so long. <P>Let's see. The worst thing I ever called him was a f***ing spoiled brat. That was it. <P>Want to hear something funny? The last time he verbally abused me over the phone (or tried) was after we were divorced. I told him "We're divorced now. You don't get to punish me anymore. If you wanted to keep treating me like *hit, you should have stayed married to me!" I laugh when I think of that now. Like, only men I'm married to are allowed to treat me badly. Pretty sick, huh?<P>He did apologize later for the way he treated me. I sometimes wonder if he's working on that now. I hope so.

I've been on both ends. I could probably say that 2 years ago I delt more than received. I was more likely to be emotionally insulting and she was more apt to being physically abusive. Of course my emotional abuse was more effective than her physical abuse because frankly she wasn't very good at it. <P>On occasion a smart remark or quib will fly fromeither side, but the truly detrimental self-esteem killing comments have gone, at least from my side. Her side is till there, but it's not "intentional". I'm still hurt not by what she says but what she does. <P>It's all part of the Giver/Taker cycle. It's hard to get two givers going and hard to get a give/take balancd as well. Something to strive for?<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Sisyphus,<P>Buddy, you have hit a sore spot of mine. I was verbally abused for 12 of 13 years, and I didn't even recognize it as abuse until it was too late. The things you mention certain sound as if they could be interpreted as verbal abuse, but this is my take. If there was a pattern, it was abusive. If it was one or two statements, made in the heat of an argument let's say, it was probably not abusive, just painful.<P>I have been called names, and the "C" word is the worst, in my book. You are right--it is an H-bomb. It doesn't just hurt, it rips apart and blows to shreds. Frequently calling each other names, no matter what the provocation, is verbal abuse.<P>Regarding the other, more subtle things, a lot of verbal abuse is behind closed doors. It's not always as obvious and glaring as physical abuse--and in fact, many of the worst things you can do to another person is putting them in a position where they start to doubt themself, and that is insidious and quiet. <P>I have no doubt that not allowing her to express anger by invalidating her feelings was damaging. Here's one tricky question for you, though. No one has the right to express anger in a way that is inappropriate or violent, and so it would not have been any better for you to let her show anger inappropriately. HOWEVER, it would have been a Great thing to learn how to let her be angry in ways that are assertive and productive. I can give you more on this later, if you want.<P>I also have no doubt that is was massively damaging to invalidate her feelings through logic. This is very, VERY devastating. You're right, you can almost always debate and trump feelings with logic and thinking, and for some people, I think doing that is a little bit of a game (in other words, they don't do it maliciously). BUT, in the end, the person with the feelings feels like you can justify why you have every right and reason to keep hurting them, and that is painful way to live: the one you love is justified in hurting you. <P>Here's a quick thought for you. Did you feel the need to "one up" her? Did you think of her, in a way, as your competitor? Did it make you feel better about yourself to do better, argue a better point, or "win" over her? This can be very subtle, so don't automatically say, "No, of course not." For example, if she came to you with good news--something she had accomplished, let's say--was your response to celebrate with her or to share something YOU had done that was equal to or better than HER good news? <P>Well, I'll get down off my soapbox now. Like I said,this is a sore spot of mine, and being verbally abused for the past 12 years is hard to get over. <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I was emotionally and verball abused for a very long time. I was also a very long time admitting that I had put up with it. <P>My FIL was very abusive towards my MIL...it used to give me chills...I remember worrying, even before saying "I Do," if I that would happen to me. It did.<P>My H never did it much when it was just he and I. He would wait until there was a house full and then let the words fly. It was humiliating. After I awhile I learned to just tune him out. Others did not. My moment of reckoning came when I was hosting a baby shower for my SIL. With approx 40 women in my house, my H came in and demanded to know where his corn seet was. When I did't know, he made a scene and demanded I get in the car and buy him more. Everyone just stared in amazement...it was awful. <P>To this day, my H can't see where he was anything but perfect. The fault lies with me...I stopped loving him. I wonder why.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>Did it make you feel better about yourself to do better, argue a better point, or "win" over her? ... For example, if she came to you with good news--something she had accomplished, let's say--was your response to celebrate with her or to share something YOU had done that was equal to or better than HER good news?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I reveled in her <I>every</I> triumph--and took more than my share of the blame for every reverse. Unfortunately, she carried around an attitude that everything came <I>easily</I> to me and that since that was so, I should be doing a whole lot better so that she didn't have to bust her hump. There was some truth in that. So her accomplishments (bought with blood, sweat and tears) in a sense only served to diminish me as parasitical in her eyes. I didn't have the opportunity to say anything to diminish her accomplishments, my mere existence was distasteful.<P>A lot of what I was doing for her (I have a home-based business, and basically kept the house as well due to her arthritic limitations) was not valued by her. She often spoke of us getting a maid. I was dead set against it. It has taken a long time to realize that what she wanted to do was free me to reach higher in what <I><B>I</I></B> was doing, but I wouldn't hear of it. I was too busy playing the martyr--but then so was she.<P>She wanted me to either abandon the home business to return to a law firm or take a second job. At a time when our pay was at parity and my business's income was increasing. But I was (and still am) behind on bookkeeping, so it could be hard to prove, and she worried a lot.<P>Since she was absolutely <I>paranoid</I> when trying to get off her antidepressant (she would try once in a while, but never could stand the withdrawal), I assumed that the slightest expression of more than everyday <I>worry</I> was related to dosage.<P>And cortisone injections <I>did</I> produce predictable rage episodes in her. Almost exactly two weeks after the shot. Every time.

Why was your W taking antidepressants and having cortisone shots? I'm sorry...I don't know your full story.<P>I know my H had a neurological disorder and took a lot of medication. I often wondered how much the meds had to do with his behavior. Realistically, I don't think too much, but I don't discount it. I remember at one point he was taking a combination of things that induced depression...when he went off the withdrawl was awful. He would go into rages one minute and then be hysterical the next; not easy to handle with two toddlers. I understood the medication problems, but not the abusive evil spiritness that always seemed to be there.<BR>

I don't think anything my wife or I did or said in our marriage could reasonably be classified as abuse. I am more interested in the problem of devaluing or invalidating feelings.<P>I really, really hated it when my wife got down on her self. She would go on and on about how terrible she was at her job, how everybody there was laughing at her or talking about her behind her back, etc. I could never figure out how to handle this. If I tried to tell her that she was very good at her job, and that everybody there loved her and often told me how fortunate they felt to have her (all true; I worked with her - under her, actually - and was thus in a position to know), she accused me of invalidating her feelings.<P>I wasn't about to <I>affirm</I> her low opinion of herself. Sometimes I would get impatient and tell her I didn't want to hear any more self-flagellation from her (these were the only occasions I can think of when I may actually have been disrespectful toward her). But I never did figure out how to handle this kind of situation...<BR>

OK, I have an even further question: What do you think constitutes verbal abuse?<P>I never once to my memory, remember ever (EVER) cursing or calling my wife names - I knew if I did, it would bring her to tears (she is a very, sensitive person). I never "put her down" in anyway. Never criticized her cooking or cleaning. Always supported her educational efforts and her career.<P>But now something seems so clear to me; I could never, repeat never, give her any type of advice or constructive criticism. Any time I did, she would always take it to the extreme and I would end up feeling bad about having said anything. It was like she had this huge authority problem and she always put me in a place of authority. I would ask questions or say little things and the first words out of her mouth were "don't treat me like I am your daughter" or "don't treat me like my dad", when that was the last thing on my mind. She found it nearly impossible to take any kind of advice (even when she asked for it from me)???? And that went for many of her bosses and teachers as well - not just me.<P>Now my faults - One thing that I suffered from was lack of patience. Not all the time, but at certain times in our relationship (especially when there was stress involved in our lives). It was never anything personal against her - It is kind of strange how I felt - I really felt like if she couldn't do something or figure out something simple, then somehow I failed??? I guess I kind of viewed her as a "part" of me and when she failed, I failed (and failing is something I hated to do). But these times were far and few between.<P>Yet she cites mental cruelty and abuse for reasons why she left. Could I have been abusive without knowing it and without having any mean spirited or selfish feelings? Is being "short" and sarcastic, mental abuse?<P>Mike<P><BR>BTW: You may notice here that I often post replies and advice about patience - It is something I have grown to enjoy and appreciate so much - even before my wife left (only she was not able to trust enough that the changes I was making were for real). I actually have more patience for her now for the sometimes mean and nasty things she has done over the past year, then I did when she used to ask me what I thought were "stupid questions"! <P>Boy what I would give to be able to answer every single one of any of her questions everyday for the rest of my life!!!<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

SoTired:<P>Mental cruelty is one of those terms that umbrellas a host of things. In NJ the list is long and thorough. Every single person, if married longer than two hours would at some point in time be guilty of mental cruelty. Mental cruelty is also something that is interpreted differently by each person...if your wife was that sensitive, if you told her her driving needed improvement...she could say you were cruel. If you liked to stay home and she liked to go out...that could be interpreted as mental cruelty. Lots of people think of mental cruelty as cursing at your spouse, name calling, etc. The reason why most folks file under mental cruelty in my state is that it takes less time for the divorce to be finalized....becuase in the end the grounds don't matter for anything.<BR>

Yeah, the grounds cited for divorce are meaningless. My wife cited "incompatibility, gross neglect of duty, and extreme cruelty". Fortunately, this gave me an opportunity to ask for an explanation via an interrogatory, and so I finally <I>did</I> get an explanation for why my wife left me six months after the event.<P>The explanation was...interesting. It appears as if my wife took a checklist of the characteristics of a batterer or abusive personality and tried to fit me into that profile. The few particulars she came up with to support her accusations were so absurdly irrelevant that it would be amusing if the situation weren't so tragic. (For example, in order to show that I was dangerously reckless, she dredged up two inconsequential driving mishaps from more than twelve years ago.)<P>I found my wife's response to my interrogatory to be oddly encouraging. While I have no doubt that my wife <I>believes</I> what she is saying about me, the particulars she gives are such a mishmash of distortion and outright fabrication that I have to conclude that she must be experiencing an <I>enormous</I> level of dissonance. Anybody who knows her could read what she said (in a sworn statement!) and know that much of it can't possibly be true. They wouldn't even have to know me!<P>So don't waste <I>too</I> much time trying to second-guess what happened in your past. Your wife has a vested interest in rewriting the history of your marriage in a negative light. Concentrate on your attitude, and see what you can do to improve your relational skills in the <I>present</I>, as opportunity permits.<BR>

My STBX husband did verbally abuse me, though if you asked him he would say, he didn't. I don't know if it is a "woman" thing (especially one with low self-esteem), but I hang on to verbal abuse and cuts me low. I'm not talking totally just about name calling, but things like "if it wasn't for me you'd be......" I have to admit I'm pretty sensitive, but sometimes he'd be so cruel. One thing he always did was say that he was sorry. It was always, I'm just really tired, or I had a bad day. It's like, dude, take it out on someone else, I'm tired of it. Well, it looks like he will. I hope that he will complete his course in Anger Management at some point. I have been physically abused and mentally/verbally, I feel that the verbal abuse was worse. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. <BR>

I've wracked my brain for years about what I could have done better or differently. I know I made alot of mistakes. When my ex would criticize me, I would take it to heart and try to change whatever it was. I couldn't beleive that someone I loved so much would go out of his way to hurt me. It had to be something I was doing.<P>After awhile, I just seemed like there was nothing I could do right. I don't know, and don't think I'll ever know if he was an abuser or if everything he said about me was true. After awhile, I just stopped believing his criticism was for my benefit.

You need to remember that when a person files the divorce complaint that it is written by a lawyer. It is the attorney's job to make things worse than they really are. This is why so many people get generally ticked off when the lawyers get involved. In the end, the judge could give a hoot. The only thing the court is interested in is dividing the marital assets up fairly and taking care of the minor children; anything else they don't care about. People get all testy over the grounds for divorce...emotional cruelty, adultery, alienation of affection, but in the end it doesn't matter. I know it matters to the couple, but not to anyone else. <P>If there is physical abuse or even emotional and verbal abuse the victim can always get a restraining order...if their claim is valid. Usually with true abusers a little thing like divorce doesn't stop them.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>How many here have verbally abused or been abusers?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When I was first married, they weren't making a big thing out of spousal abuse, and all the definitions hadn't been written into it yet. My ex didn't wait until we were married to start slapping me, and all through the marriage she threw things at me. I never saw that as spousal abuse, I thought that was just the way wives acted. My supper rarely was served, it was merely aimed in my direction!<P>I was a very bad combination. A very low tolerance for frustration, a need to contradict, a quick temper, a love affair with the absurd, a gift for sarcasm, and an addiction to alcohol. Not a whole lot to stand up and cheer about there.<P>There are hundreds of web sites on spousal abuse, and most have a laundry list of things that are now considered verbally or psychologically abusive. Some of these lists are so extreme that virtually anything a man does that fails to please his wife is considered abuse. <P>This just isn't the same army I was born into.<P>Bumper<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>OK, I have an even further question: What do you think constitutes verbal abuse?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>1. Using words, tones, facial expressions or gestures calculated to cause negative emotions in your partner.<P>2. Communicating ideas that mischaracterize your partner as having a defect, or highlighting or exagerrating the severity of an existing defect, when you know or reasonably should know that you will cause undue distress.<P>3. Communicating ideas that mischaracterize your partner's behavior as defective, or exagerrating the severity of actual defective behavior, when you know or reasonably should know that you will cause undue distress.<P>4. Communicating ideas that mischaracterize conditions having to do with other people or things as your partner's responsibilities, or exagerrating the severity of a partner's failure to uphold a responsibility, when you know or reasonably should know that you will cause undue distress.<P>5. Denying a partner the opportunity to communicate, even where such communication would include elements of abuse, when such communication could be beneficial to the relationship.<P>6. Refusing to acknowledge the existence of a partner's feelings, misattributing them to a nonexistent defect, or exagerrating their relationship to an actual defect.<P>7. Repeating a previously non-abusive communication substantially unchanged, where your partner has not understood or acted upon it, in circumstances where you know or reasonably should know that your partner continues to be unreceptive or unresponsive to such communication for any reason, and where such communication causes your partner undue distress.<P>Well, as a lawyer, I think that about covers it. My right to swing my verbal fist ends where your nose begins. I don't think anyone can come up with an instance of verbal abuse that doesn't fit in one of the above categories.<P>Verbal abuse can be mighty easy territory to cross into even with the best of intentions, but those are the posts that mark the border.

What is abuse? I think most of us know. There is a difference between getting angry and calling your spouse annoying and calling them some vicious slur. It isn't nice to call people names; especially nasty hurtful names. It isn't nice to smack someone or throw things at them either. It isn't nice to be rude and hurtful and spiteful. It is especially not nice to do those things to your H or W...the person you have vowed to love and cherish. Yes, we all get frustrated and angry at times, but that doesn't give you the right to take it out on your spouse by hitting, throwing, or name calling. <P>People who are abused somehow think that it was something they did to cause the person to lash out. Go to family court sometime and listen to the person who just beat the crap out of his wife. They always have an excuse...she was bugging me, I was under stress, etc. There is no excuse. <P>A few years back a wonderful book came out, "Everything I Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarden." I don't remember the author, but the message was loud and clear. <P>As verbally abusive as my H was, I never stooped down to his level and called him names...he was my H and I respected that and myself. Eventually, I just tuned the hurtful words out...eventually, I got tired of being the doormat. He still won't listen to why I want the divorce. He still just lashes out by calling me names, commenting on my mental state...it's not him, it is me. <P><BR>

Sisyphus,<P>I hope you don't mind if I back up a little, but there's something really important I need you to know. When I originally asked you the questions (Did you feel the need to "one up" her? Did you think of her, in a way, as your<BR>competitor? Did it make you feel better about yourself to do better, argue a better point, or "win" over her? This can be very subtle, so don't automatically say, "No, of course not." For example, if she came to you with good news--something she had accomplished, let's say--was your response to celebrate with her or to share something YOU had done that was equal to or better than HER good news?), my intention was to make you stop and think, not to say that you in fact DID those things. I was aiming more for you to take a quick pause, evaluate yourself, and ask, "Did I do this?" So, before we go any further, I did not EVER mean to suggest that you did or did not act that way--I was trying to stimulate some thoughts.<P>Next, the reason why I asked those questions is that I have discovered that, as related to verbal abuse, people live in two very different worlds. One is the "Personal Power" world, and the other is the "Power Over" world. Now, this is very general, so follow along for a moment. It's fairly obvious, but those in the "Personal Power" world find power, self-esteem and strength through mutuality, equality, and through their own efforts and successes. Those in the "Power Over" world find power, self-esteem, and strength by winning, competing, being "one up" on someone, and having power over them. It is my experience that what often happens is that a "Personal Power" person will be in a relationship with a "Power Over" person and will think the goal is mutuality--and the "Power Over" person will think the goal is to "one up" the partner. This is the perfect melting pot for verbal abuse. The "Personal Power" person will say something as casual as, "It's cold out here" in an attempt to start a discussion about the weather or as a way of stating his/her opinion (no competition involved). The "Power Over" person will respond in a way to gain power over his/her partner--something like, "Who died and made you God, that you get to decide what is cold and what isn't?" Now, the "Personal Power" person will think that maybe the partner misunderstood and took it as an attack, so he/she will try to explain; which just make the "Power Over" person argue harder, because their goal is to win or conquer the partner. In the end, the "Personal Power" person can be verbally abused, because their opinions and thoughts and feelings are discounted; furthermore, in the effort to conquer, their opinions, thoughts, and feelings are overpowered. <P>Anyway, I did not mean to suggest that this was in any way what you did or how you behave. I'm just throwing it out there as thoughts to consider. Verbal abuse is the topic, right? <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Well, XW always felt trapped by where I was in my life.<P>Couldn't quit her job because I wasn't making enough money (I would have been if we hadn't bought the expensive house and car, but those were <I>joint</I> decisions, even though driven mainly by her).<P>Couldn't go contract at her job (gaining flexibility but losing security) because the quality of the assignments given her would deteriorate. In fact, after the divorce she did so, and admits it has caused no problems.<P>Couldn't move to New York or Italy because of me. In fact, I told her I could stomach such a move <I>without</I> either of us bailing from the marriage. In time I might have even found a way to join her had it worked out. But after divorce she tentatively moved to Milan and in fact it didn't work out--something about the pollution being bad for her skin (I shouldn't discount this--but I know that there were a lot more unwelcome realities than that undercutting that dream).<P>Couldn't have a child because I wasn't where I needed to be in my career, plus her health problems (much of which she blamed on stress from guess where--<I><B>me</I></B>). And I wasn't receptive to adoption (OK, I'll cop to that last one--but there was no real <I>leadership</I> on her part. Occasionally there would be the bald statement out of the blue "What if we adopted a [child, chinese baby, etc.]?" and my less-than-immediately- 100%-enthusiastic entre into the discussion that followed would assure that it petered out fairly quickly). I should have been more perceptive and receptive. <B><I>My bad.</I></B> <I>Especially</I> when I knew how concerned she was about passing on her psoriasis/psoriatic arthritis genes (she got dealt by far the worst hand in her family, many of whom had milder forms).<P>I sound like a <I>whiner</I>, but in fact this latest verbal abuse thread has been so therapeutic for me that I'm feeling almost at peace enough to leave this board for a while. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 31, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumperii:<BR><B>Some of these lists are so extreme that virtually anything a man does that fails to please his wife is considered abuse. <P>This just isn't the same army I was born into.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The issue isn't whether something pleases or not. The issue is <I>intent</I>. And most of the world has come a long way in a short period of time on more social issues than I care to count (some of which I will likely remain a dinosaur on). Thank globalization and abundant journalism for that.<P>