On the other verbal abuse thread someone asked what verbal abuse is, and I have just come up with this working definition. What does everybody think?:<P>1. Using words, tones, facial expressions or gestures calculated to cause negative emotions in your partner.<P>2. Communicating ideas that mischaracterize your partner as having a defect, or highlighting or exagerrating the severity of an existing defect, when you know or reasonably should know that you will cause undue distress.<P>3. Communicating ideas that mischaracterize your partner's behavior as defective, or exagerrating the severity of actual defective behavior, when you know or reasonably should know that you will cause undue distress.<P>4. Communicating ideas that mischaracterize conditions having to do with other people or things as your partner's responsibilities, or exagerrating the severity of a partner's failure to uphold a responsibility, when you know or reasonably should know that you will cause undue distress.<P>5. Denying a partner the opportunity to communicate, even where such communication would include elements of abuse, when such communication could be beneficial to the relationship.<P>6. Refusing to acknowledge the existence of a partner's feelings, misattributing them to a nonexistent defect, or exagerrating their relationship to an actual defect.<P>7. Repeating a previously non-abusive communication substantially unchanged, where your partner was unduly distressed by it, or has not understood or acted upon it, in circumstances where you know or reasonably should know that your partner continues to be unreceptive or unresponsive to such communication for any reason, and where such communication causes your partner undue distress.<P>Well, as a lawyer, I think that about covers it. My right to swing my verbal fist ends where your nose begins. I don't think anyone can come up with an instance of verbal abuse that doesn't fit in one of the above categories.<P>Verbal abuse can be mighty easy territory to cross into even with the best of intentions, but those are the posts that mark the border.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited January 31, 2001).]

Wow! You're good. That's a fairly broad definition, and to be honest, I think under those guidelines, we are all verbally abusive. But I'm with you--I think these are great guideposts. <P>I would add that verbal abuse is a REPEATED PATTERN of these actions. <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>I would add that verbal abuse is a REPEATED PATTERN of these actions.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No. It's verbal abuse if it happens <I>even once</I>, just like a single punch is physical abuse. The only place you need a <I>pattern</I> is where something you did <I>once</I> without intent is repeated when you ought to know better.<BR>

Perfect!!!!<P>Now, couple that with talking as loud and as fast as you can, blatantly mocking and humiliating with laughter, cursing, accusing your partner of things that your partner would never do just to get a rise out of them, projecting your own guilt with extreme rage that includes breaking things, threatening to kill your partner, destroy their life, or take the children where they will never be heard from again. . .getting very drunk first helps. . .then you will have the whole ballgame.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bernzini:<BR><B>Perfect!!!!<P>Now, couple that with ...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>All that's in there already (mostly under #1), except for the drinking and breaking stuff, both of which fall in other categories entirely.<P>#1 is the big catch-all. The rest are more subtle forms of mental torture (and the last is obviously <I>nagging</I>).<P>

Verbal abuse has the same broad explaination as sexual abuse does..<P>And in both cases they can be hard to prove..<BR>unfortunately..

Well, if people spend a little time to think about whether what they say could be verbal abuse, no one should ever be in the position to try to prove it, because one or both parties will recognize it, and call a halt to it before it gets too harmful. That's why the broad definition is important.<P>I'm sure there are very short passages in Proverbs that say to only use soothing words to a spouse. That's even better, but our society likes to think itself more sophisticated and so we need a little more framework for our ideas.<P>What really troubles me is that once there is abuse, the person from whom it came is branded with the scarlet <B>A</B>, never to be trusted again... yada, yada. Folks, this is an imperfect world full of imperfect people, and gradual progress against longstanding patterns is the rule and not the (instant solution) exception. The definition shows how very easy it is to commit abuse, how insidious it can be--and with that in mind, how compassionate a spouse must be. Because it's likely flowing in two directions, either overtly or covertly.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 02, 2001).]

Pretty well written.<P>But I've got some questions....<P>What does 'intent' play in all of this?<BR>Especially when the person being abused has pointed out that they don't like being treated in such manners?<BR>(I'm looking more at #2-#6, mental abuse.)<BR>What about when it comes not only from your spouse, but also from the spouse's friends (re: mental abuse)?<P>When the nagging, #7, is related to actions that have been promised and not carried through, is it abuse?<P>~Amy

This is from DrIrene.com. I found it very thought proviking. Good site - check it out.<P><BR>ignore your feelings? <P>disrespect you? <P>ridicule or insult you then tell you its a joke, or that you have no sense of humor? <P>ridicule your beliefs, religion, race, heritage or class? <P>withhold approval, appreciation or affection? <P>give you the silent treatment? <P>walk away without answering you? <P>criticize you, call you names, yell at you? <P>humiliate you privately or in public? <P>roll his or her eyes when you talk? <P>give you a hard time about socializing with your friends or family? <P>make you socialize (and keep up appearances) even when you don't feel well? <P>seem to make sure that what you really want is exactly what you won't get? <P>tell you you are too sensitive? <P>hurt you especially when you are down? <P>seem energized by fighting, while fighting exhausts you? <P>have unpredictable mood swings, alternating from good to bad for no apparent reason? <P>present a wonderful face to the world and is well liked by outsiders? <P>"twist" your words, somehow turning what you said against you? <P>try to control decisions, money, even the way you style your hair or wear your clothes? <P>complain about how badly you treat him or her? <P>threaten to leave, or threaten to throw you out? <P>say things that make you feel good, but do things that make you feel bad? <P>ever left you stranded? <P>ever threaten to hurt you or your family? <P>ever hit or pushed you, even "accidentally"? <P>seem to stir up trouble just when you seem to be getting closer to each other? <P>abuse something you love: a pet, a child, an object? <P>compliment you enough to keep you happy, yet criticize you enough to keep you insecure? <P>promise to never do something hurtful again? <P>harass you about imagined affairs? <P>manipulate you with lies and contradictions? <P>destroy furniture, punch holes in walls, break appliances? <P>drive like a road-rage junkie? <P>act immature and selfish, yet accuse you of those behaviors? <P>question your every move and motive, somehow questioning your competence? <P>interrupt you; hear but not really listen? <P>make you feel like you can't win? damned if you do, damned if you don't? <P>use drugs and/or alcohol involved? are things worse then? <P>incite you to rage, which is "proof" that you are to blame? <P>try to convince you he or she is "right," while you are "wrong?" <P>frequently say things that are later denied or accuse you of misunderstanding? <P>treat you like a sex object, or as though sex should be provided on demand regardless of how you feel? <P>COVERT ABUSE<P>Treats other people, especially other women, with more respect and/or attention than he treats you with. If you fall into the trap, you feel jealous - and are accused of being "insecure."<BR> <BR>Won't tell you who just called on the phone, cell, or beeper after that short, "uh huh", "yeah," etc. nondescript conversation. You want to ask, but may feel silly. <P>You are all dressed up; you look great - and you know it. But, no compliment tonight... Feeling insecure yet? <P>Find the time to do what he or she wants to do, but cannot make time for you. <P>Needs "space." <P>Talks more with his or her friends or family than with you. You feel like an outsider. <P>Is late; forgets anniversary's, birthday's, etc. <P>Manages to not get you what you asked for, described, hinted for, etc. But, it's a gift. How can you possibly complain? (You ungrateful person, you!) <P>Makes you feel like an afterthought. Everything and everyone else takes priority. <P>His or her ex's feelings or kid's feelings or family's feelings are more important than your feelings. <P>You feel taken for granted. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Anastasia (edited February 02, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by out of the fog:<BR><B>Pretty well written.<P>But I've got some questions....<P>What does 'intent' play in all of this?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, if you know you're doing something harmful, that's bad intent; and if you don't know but you should know, that's just being reckless, which we again lump in with bad intent.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Especially when the person being abused has pointed out that they don't like being treated in such manners?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Once you point out that something isn't good for you, if you keep getting it, then it is indeed abuse.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>(I'm looking more at #2-#6, mental abuse.)<BR>What about when it comes not only from your spouse, but also from the spouse's friends (re: mental abuse)?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I suppose there is a duty of protection. But failing to uphold it is not an <I>abuse</I>--it's failure to uphold a duty. I suppose that failure to uphold a duty <I>is</I> abuse if you know you should uphold it and you are capable of upholding it. But it's not <I>verbal</I> abuse and that's what we're talking about here. Nor would his badmouthing you to others be <I>verbal abuse</I> if done out of your earshot (even though he can't do it without being verbal). It's just slander. A different kind of wrong.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When the nagging, #7, is related to actions that have been promised and not carried through, is it abuse?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I would say that it <I>is</I> still abuse. What's non-abusive? On the one hand, I would think that you would be able to occasionally complain about the situation as opposed to criticizing <I>him</I> for not taking care of it. But again, your frequency is important. Was the act simply forgotten, or are you bombarding him even though you know he knows and you really need to discuss with him some underlying problem that's keeping it from getting done (as opposed to simply continuing to demand that it be done)? Because we all know that nagging is often counterproductive.<P>Remember, if you're having to nag for something, either you're not meeting one of your spouse's emotional needs or your spouse is not willing to meet one of your needs. Otherwise the thing simply gets done. <P>

The biggest problem with the list from DrIrene.com is that <I>everyone</I> in a relationship that has lasted for any amount of time is guilty of something on that list. If everyone can thereby be labeled as abusive, the label becomes meaningless and worthless.<P>There are other problems as well. Whenever I read questions about how your partner "makes you feel" a big alarm goes off in my head. And if you've got a legitimate complaint, it isn't going to help if you always keep it to yourself.<P>But I particularly like items such as: <B>"present a wonderful face to the world and is well liked by outsiders"</B>. The nicer someone is, the more suspicious I guess we need to become.<P>Or how about this one: <B>"promise to never do something hurtful again"</B>. I've done that. AND I've kept my promise, too.<P>Sorry if I seem overly cynical, but being falsely accused of being abusive can make one kind of sensitive about such things. I freely admit to making significant mistakes in my marriage, but they were <I>all</I> based on ignorance, misunderstanding, and good intentions.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited February 02, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>Remember, if you're having to nag for something, either you're not meeting one of your spouse's emotional needs or your spouse is not willing to meet one of your needs. Otherwise the thing simply gets done. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Looking back at it, I suppose we were abusive towards each other. He said that I was a nag. But I feel like I was treated with the more subtle abuses of #2-#6. And I guess we both did #1.<P>The thing is, his abusive behavior towards me goes back to when we were dating. I don't think he can say thatof my nagging.<P>Where....when....did everything go wrong?<P>~Amy<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B>The biggest problem with the list from DrIrene.com is that <I>everyone</I> in a relationship that has lasted for any amount of time is guilty of something on that list. If everyone can thereby be labeled as abusive, the label becomes meaningless and worthless.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think the fact that abuse is pervasive means that the list has a problem. Nor do I think that everyone who commits it should be labeled an "abuser"--that should be reserved for someone who can't or won't examine and alter their own behavior once they know that another person is experiencing distress because of it. <P>It's a good list full of examples ... of both verbal abuse and other kinds of emotional abuse. But a catalog of examples doesn't necessarily elucidate for people the underlying principles; and it's knowledge of the underlying principles that best helps us avoid committing abuses.