Much has been said about the importance of meeting sexual needs in marriage. What I have never seen is a decent explanation of what to do if your needs aren't met and there is no prospect of resolution within any reasonable time frame (any maybe never). Dr. Harley attempted to address this in a Q&A to someone who's wife suffered from MS and he wanted to know how to have his needs fulfilled in the situation where his wife simply counldn't meet his needs.<p>I found Dr. Harley's response typical - it was a complete blow-off. What he said sounded nice - support your wife with all your heart sort of stuff, but he skillfully maneuvered around the question at hand. He never addressed the man's concern.<p>The real problem with severe physical and emotional disorder is that the answer to the question is something that no one, especially Chrisitian's, want to tackle...the only obvious answers are divorce or extramarital sex. Thats it folks, those are the choices and no one likes them.<p>I'd like to hear what others think. Are there really any better answers? I agree it would be terrible to 'dump' an emotional or physical invalid, and adultery sure seems wrong, but what other choices are there? Drugs? Surgery? What?<p>

Tough question?<br>Have you talked to you wife about it? She may understand and give you permission to get you needs met by another. This may still seem wrong but if two consenting adults agree and you do some soul-searching it maybe better then doing it behind her back. HOw about "jacking off" it is not nice but it may relieve your most pressing need. It will not help your emtional need though for physical companionship. Very tough question. Trust in the Lord to provide an answer for you and your wife . Good luck

I suggest reading some books with your spouse on "sex and intimacy". It does not involve only the sexual act. It is a state of mind. There are qualified marriage counsellors who specialize in teaching couples how to establish a more satifying intimate relationship. There are even seminars and workshops given in this area by some churchs etc.

To rusty:<p> Yes, we've discussed your suggestion. Although with great reluctance, I'd have to say that a mutually agreed-upon acceptance of an extramarital relationship would work for me. I'd be forever disappointed, but I could live with it. I cannot live with the current situation. Neither of us wants to divorce.<p> The resolution you suggest went over like a lead balloon. She was very very much against this idea, in fact, this is putting it rather mildly. Her reasons were that 1) it is sinful, 2) she fears I'd get a disease (since she knows I would never use a condom, and 3) mainly, she fears that I'd leave her for the other lover. As far I can tell, I wouldn't but I guess I can't be sure.<p> Any other ideas?<p>---------<p>To MK: Thanks for your reply. My question comes with an assumption that all efforts have failed.<p>For what its worth, everything you suggested has been tried without success. In fact, we've beat the options to death (I cannot count how many books, courses, counselors, church marital enrichment programs and the like that we've tried).<p>We are now beyond all the typical stuff you can do for type of situation. I'm a patient guy but I have come to the conclusion that a normal sex life with my current spouse is simply never going to happen. I'm not being fatalistic, I'm being realistic. <p>I am now trying to deal with the tough question of what is the best answer to meet my needs while moving forward with the good parts of marriage (which actually is everything except sex). I am having a heck of time coming up with something we both can live with. There just don't seem to be any good answers in this situaiton. I feel like I'm running through a mine field...every step has a good chance to blow up our lives.

Please don't introduce a 3rd party into your sex life. Sounds like you have decided against it, but I wanted to reinforce that notion. Talk about a mine field! Jealousy, hurt, fear, betrayal. It's all potential. And what about this 3rd person? You can't expect them to remain neutral. Unless you get a 'professional.'

Iris - you are certantly right, another person really complicates things.<p>But, the REAL question is, without another person and without an reasonable expectation of being able to be with my wife, then what???? <p>Its one thing to bash alternatives...ok, but what is the answer? What solution do you suggest which is better than a 3rd person.<p>And yes, I'd probably seek a professional, probably a surrogate. I'm not too sure of what the 'offerings' are out there but for sure I would want it to be sex-only. It would be so important that I'd consider switching partners frequently.<p>Another possibility is to pair-up with a woman with exactly the same problem only in reverse. They would understand the need and the dangers. <p>I'd really like there to be another answer, I really would...but I just can't find it.<p>

The only answer is this. PRAY< PRAY AND THEN PRAY SOMEMORE. God will hear you and give you his advice.

klamb9,<br>Is there ANYTHING your wife can do to satisfy your needs for intimacy?<p>Interesting story I heard... my Mom has a friend who is dating a man whose spouse has Alzheimers. The wife is in a home, and her husband did what he could for her. Although they are still married, he is committed to the new woman. This is accepted by all parties. Of course the wife has no knowledge due to her condition, but her family is OK with the situation. The husband even moved his wife and he back to the UK so that she could be near her family and she could take advantage of the socialized medical care. Don't know your situation - but it's an interesting story, anyway.

klamb9:<p>As Rustynail suggested, masturbation can 'take the edge off', but I know it's not a good long-term substitute for intimacy. You don't mention what your wife's problems are. (Not that you should feel any need to!) Is she aware of how intense your need is? Do her hands and arms still work? Would she be willing or able to manually stimulate you to orgasm? Would this be sufficient for you to feel sexually connected to her?<p>I've often wished that, when my wife was hurting too much for intercourse, she would be willing to give me a 'hand job', even if I had to provide most of the motion!<p>Ya just can't 'beat' a woman's touch--so to speak!!! <br><p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited 01-17-99).]

I appreciate everyone trying to help, but I'm pretty much getting the same 'ole response, that is, trying to 'fix' my wife. This situation is way too complicated to address here so that's why I stated the 'given' in my question was that a sexual relationship with my wife is not possible and the prospects of a fix are slim. The prospect of a fix in a time frame that would be workable for me is zero.<p>Prayer has been suggested. Not to be coy but this is the very first thing we tried and have been doing it for decades, but has changed nothing for the better. God seems to be sitting this one out. The condition has gotten slowly worse and worse until now we have no intimacy of any kind whatsoever.<p>Masturbation has been suggested. That's what I'm doing now. It is grossly inadequate and it causes both of us emotional and spiritual pain due to my requirement for 'visual aids'. <br> <br>Answers to other questions: "Is she aware of how intense your need is?". Uh, yes, all too aware. <p>'Do her hands and arms still work?'. Physically yes, but emotionally/sexually no. <br>'Would she be willing or able to manually stimulate you to orgasm?' Answer, yes, but only very reluctantly a few times a year.<p>'Would this be sufficient for you to feel sexually connected to her?' For a short while and if it was frequent enough, yes. As it is now, defintely not.<p>'I've often wished that, when my wife was hurting too much for intercourse, she would be willing to give me a 'hand job', even if I had to provide most of the motion!'<p> ...so would I, but not in this marriage at least.<p>I'm still back to my original question...what should a Christian husband with an intense sex drive do if his wife is unable to meet his needs to be sexual with a woman? All involved (including pastor and counselors) believe the situation has no reasonable probability of turning around. The couple is in their late 30's.<p>Surely not divorce, this is sinful according to scripture and ruins everything. Neither of the spouses want divorce and the family would be devestated.<p>Surely not extramarital sex, this is sinful also and could cause the other strengths of the marriage to erode, not to mention disease (or arrest!).<p>Surely not just 'waiting on the Lord' as there is biological timing involved and the Lord has thus far decided not to help the husband in this area. The situation is making the husband climb the walls and worse, lust after every woman he sees. He is absolutely miserable...even having problems sleeping.<p>So now what? What provision is there for this situation? The general plan for man and wife is layed out in scripture, but what about when it goes wrong? Permanently? As I read the scriptures, the only way to fix this is:<br> <br> 1. The death of the wife thus permitting<br> remarriage<p> 2. Divorce and remarriage if the wife<br> were to commit adultery<p> 3. A miracle 'cure'<p>That's it...that's all I can find. Am I missing something?<p><p>

Klamb9,<p>Just a story. A couple was married. They were christian and believe strongly in following God and his word. They began to try to have children. This couple was very much in love and wanted to share this love with a child. They were not able to conceive a child so they went to the doctors to see why. There is nothing wrong with either of them. The problem is that their body chemicals are not compatible. Now God says to have children, he also says not to divorce. What are the options. Pretty similar to yours I would imagine. They could stay together and try to adopt and never have children of their own or they could split and find other mates. Darned if they do and darned if they don't. This couple decided to divorce. They both met other wonderful people and had families. After about 10 yrs. the spouse of the original couples both passed away because of medical reasons. The original couple remarried and still are together. This is a true story. Do I believe with what they did? I can't really say. It was their choice. I do believe that God supported them in the decission they did make. <p>If I were in your situation I would stick it out. Then again I am a woman but a woman who likes sex as well. Love and a warm caring mate are so much more important than sex. Yes it would be nice to also have a great sex life but if you can find some relief I would take that. In the end it is your call. God is helping you he is letting you make the call. <p>Good Luck,<p>Steph

I have nothing to offer here but sympathy. MK you must be one of those people in a great relationship (terms of sex) To suggest seminars and books to build a more satisfying intimate relationship (without sex) is a lot of fluff. This kind and touchy feely suggestion sounds so nice, however, it ignores the fact that men NEED sex and for those men who say they need sex it makes them seem somehow crude and unsensitive that they are unable to put that need aside.

It's not just men that need sex.

I really don't think you can be married and have your sexual needs met by a third party without it tearing apart your marriage. My H and I have been attending a marriage class at our church(a video series featuring Bruce Wilkenson-who also runs "Walk Through the Bible"). He makes a very good point in that God intended sex, not only for procreation, but to continually bond the married couple together. When two people have sex, there is an emotional bond created. When one of the persons is married to someone else, it tears apart the bond with his or her spouse. He also makes an interesting point about porn--he says that viewing porn also creates a kind of a "visual bond", that also can destroy the god-given bond a married couple have together.<p>Do you and your wife have a good relationship besides the sex part? If you didn't have strong beliefs against divorce, would you divorce her over this? Is she physically unable to have sex? Or is it an emotional thing? <p>Personally, I have a high libido at this point in my life, but my husband doesn't. I was very hurt to be rejected, until I found out he has a condition called sleep apnea, which literally makes him too exhausted to even think about sex most of the time. He is going to be tested for this soon (I'm already convinced he has this--he stops breathing for 10-15 seconds at a time about 60 times an hour, which makes him exhausted and have no energy when he gets home from work--since he never gets into REM sleep, cause his body has to wake him up to breathe constantly--and one of the side effects of this is low sex drive), and if I found out there is nothing to do to help him(He seems to have "central sleep apnea"-which involves the brain, instead of the throat closing up-so I don't know what treatment there is for that, if any. The machines that are used for the other kind of apnea would be of no help, since his brain just isn't sending the signal to breathe)--anyways, if I found out he couldn't be "cured" and i had no hope of getting my sexual needs met, I would just need to deal with it. It wouldn't be easy by any means, but I love him enough to stick by him no matter what--even if I have to adjust my needs. It really is possible to live without sex, if you still have an emotional bond. I don't want to have to do that, but the last thing I would do, especially being a committed Christian, is to have sex with someone else just to get those needs met. "What Would Jesus Do" is the question I am always asking myself. Do you think Jesus would handle that in the way you are suggesting? As Christians we are called to follow Jesus and to try to live like Him. That just wouldn't be the solution. It's totally against God's "rules", thus would be no good for your life. God knew what He was doing when He made the laws for us to follow--they are there to keep us safe and happy. Trust in God to deal with your needs and wants. But don't do anything that will tear apart your marriage if you truly love your wife.<p>

Sherl:<p>Thank you for your thoughtful reply. <p>You indicate that an extramarital sex-only relationship is a bad option. I agree.<p>This implies you know of something better...what is it?<p>> Do you and your wife have a good relationship besides the sex part? <p> Yes, excellent.<p>> If you didn't have strong beliefs against divorce<br> <br> We both have intensely strong feelings against divorce.<p>> Is she physically unable to have sex? Or is it an emotional thing? <p> It is both. Mostly emotional, but her sexual physiology as about as disabled as it gets.<p>> Personally, I have a high libido at this point in my life, but my husband doesn't. I was very hurt to be rejected, until I found out he has a condition called sleep apnea<p> Very interesting...I have a whopper of a case of apnea and it sure doesn't keep me from being ready for sex! <p>> if I found out he couldn't be "cured" and i had no hope of getting my sexual needs met, I would just need to deal with it. <p> And what if you've tried everything but just cannot find a way to deal with the intense physical and emotional discomfort involved? What if you have tried everything, including prayer, but you just can't stand another day of it?<p>> It really is possible to live without sex, if you still have an emotional bond. <p> I am in the reverse situation, although I'd be disappointed I could live with a sex-only relationship. I want the whole of what God has designed, but I could live with only the physical part of it. I definitely cannot live with only the emotional side of this. No way, no how.<p>To me, you might was well say that sleep or urination are 'nice' but not necessarily. For me, sex as very basic biology/bodily function. <p>> I don't want to have to do that, but the last thing I would do, especially being a committed Christian, is to have sex with someone else just to get those needs met. <p> It is the last thing for me too...but I'm down to the last thing!<p>"What Would Jesus Do?" <p> Jesus was celibate. Celibacy is a gift. It is a gift that Jesus (and Paul) was given, but I wasn't. Most people do not have this gift. I took I Cor 7 literally for I married because I could not control myself in a Christian-like way while I was single.<p>> But don't do anything that will tear apart your marriage if you truly love your wife.<p> Good advice, of course, but I'm still waiting to know the altnerative. Its real easy to blast the options I presented, but what are your options?<p>I am perfectly willing to have my needs satisfied by God's plan for husband and wife. <br>I am miserable and blisteringly frustrated. The concept of absolute marital fidelity, God's plan for marriage and sexual fulfillment and the conditions of my situation do not reconcile...2+2 does equal four here.<p><p>

Sorry folks, in my last post i meant to say:<p>"...my situation do not reconcile...2+2 does NOT equal four"

Okay, klamb9, I do have a suggestion. It has worked for me. But you have to be willing to "let go" of your intense physical needs. I know you've said that you've prayed about this for years, but have you ever prayed specifically for God to take away these very intense feelings you have? I know it sounds strange, especially when you feel that these need SHOULD be met.(At least that's what I thought when I prayed for my marriage and I began to feel very intense feelings of love and a desire for sex that I hadn't felt in a long time. I was very happy about these feelings until I realized that my husband was unable to adjust his libido to my newfound one. Then I was SO frustrated, i didn't know what to do. I felt it was so unfair that God would give me back MY feelings, but ignore my request for my husband's. The more I dwelled on my unmet needs, the worse I felt. But then I asked God to take the intense feelings away, so I could at least not be obsessed with getting my needs met(and I was obsessed). He did answer my prayer. Oh, I still would love to make love to my husband, but at least I don't cry myself to sleep anymore when he can't get himself to feel like it.<p>Which brings me to my question for you...<br>you say you have a whopping case of apnea. Tell me about that, if you don't mind. How long have you had this, when were you diagnosed, and what treatment is being used? Is it obstuctive apnea or central? How many times a night do you stop breathing, and for how long each time? If you are being treated, I can see how you have energy, but my husband is increasingly more run down everyday. He also works about 70 hours a week(he's cut down from 80), and as long as he has a project in front of him-he can deal with it, but as soon as he comes home and sits down-his energy is GONE. We went to the doctor yesterday, and he's being referred to a sleep lab for tests--so we're waiting for more info. I'm interested in hearing about your case.<p>But back to my suggestion. I feel that IS the only alternative for a Christian man in your situation. Don't dwell on your unmet needs, and ask God to take away those intense feelings, and enjoy the good parts of your marriage. Trying to be in constant communication with God, and keeping your eyes on Him really helps. My favorite Bible verse that has gotten me through a lot of stressful times in my life is: "Thou will keep in perfect peace, whose mind in stayed on Thee." <br>And it's true--when my mind is on Christ, the things going on around me don't really matter--but the second I take my mind off of Him and start concentrating on myself and my problems, those problems become huge again. Give it a try.

Keith,<p>First, let me say that I could easily see myself in your shoes, as my wife has physical and/or emotional "problems" that prevent her from meeting my sexual needs. I also feel trapped between "what I need" and "what is right". Mostly, I feel this way because I was desperately searching for that "option" that is physically and emotionally satisfying, yet ethically acceptable.<p>(I fully expect to be blasted/flamed for what I say, but I'm not out to antogonize you, or anybody. Hey, I'm at least as frustrated as the next guy. If you REALLY wanna chew me out, e-mail me at Val_vv@Yahoo.com. That way, we can call each other all sorts of nasty names, and not offend these nice people.)<p>The way I see it, WE (yes, we) have several options. Just for yuks, I'll revisit them here:<p>1. Divorce. Don't wanna. In short, divorce sucks, not only from the financial and emotional standpoint, but the Christian one as well. A crappy option, but it may be your best option if you've truly crapped out on option 2.<p>2. "fix" your wife. I don't even want to speculate on what your wife's "problems" are, and since you don't feel comfortable or open enough to tell us what they are, we can only guess. From what you say about her, it sounds like she's "willing" to be cured. You mention that you discussed the "surrogate" option, so she's "motivated" enough to work on the problem. Unless she doesn't have all the required "parts" or her health is so fragile that the physical activity level would be impossible, then it probably can be "fixed". My wife isn't willing to address or even acknowledge her "problems", so from what I'm hearing so far, you may be in a BETTER position than me.<p>3. Sexual surrogate or affair. I think as far as God is concerned, these are one in the same. You already know all the ramifications of this, so I won't bore you. I will say that this is an "attractive" option to me because I have visions of all my long-neglected needs and fantasies fulfilled. However, I don't think I could ever look at myself the same way if I went down this road.<p>4. Do whatever it takes to get along without sex. (Oh, yeah, I hear the wheels spinnin' now!)Surely the "fluffiest" answer yet! I find that even though my "sex life" has been dismal for YEARS, I find it bothers me more and more lately. Why is that? Probably because I've been dwelling on it. I say this because I can be in my nastiest, blackest, meanest sex-deprived, pissed at the world, I'm gonna strangle somebody mood, and I can STILL forget my problems and enjoy myself by occupying my mind with some other activity. You may dismiss this option/suggestion summarily, but I think if you do, you will find yourself left only with much less desireable choices. I don't know what "rings your bell" besides sex, but there has to be something. For some people, it's work. (now those are sick puppies.) Maybe it's a hobby, or a cause, maybe it's science or nature or dancing or whatever.<p>You seem to be looking (like I was) for the "magic bullet", the fun, ethical, inexpensive, non-fattenning way to meet your emotional need for sex. I don't think it exists - outside of the way you've already acknowledged that it should be: with the woman you're married to.<p><br>Sorry for the long-winded, opinionated, idealistic answer, but I'm struggling with this problem too. Unlike breathing and urination, we CAN live without sex. It won't be the best possible life, or even one we think we can live, but people DO accomplish it. The ability to pursue a celibate life may be a gift, but (more fluff coming) the Bible says that God won't tempt us with more than we CAN handle. If you hold to Christian beliefs, this must mean something to you. It's not an easy pill to swallow (or injection to take ) but take it we must. <p>Some people go through life blind, deaf, paralyzed, or even retarded. If we believe in God, we believe that he makes us the way we are. As big as a pain in the [censored] that having a crappy (or no) sex life is, I'd rather go without sex forever than be blind, or deaf, or paralyzed. (you may argue that I'm retarded already, sometimes, I wonder myself)<p>Sure, it's hard at times to be happy with what you have, but things could be worse. <p>I find that my wife's inability to make love to me the way I would like it used to make me mad. More and more, I find that I love her more than ever. I have such compassion for her. I feel that I am the lucky one. God has given me this sweet, wonderful, loving, hard-working woman to love.<p>We're all broken pots Keith, there is no "answer" other than the one you aready know to be correct - the same one I have to accept.<p>Val

sherl,<p>I was typing while you were posting, thanks for your answer, I think you and I see eye-to-eye.<p>Val

Val, Sherl:<p>I don't know what Keith will think, but I found your answers very insightful (and applicable to myself). Sometimes it's hard to keep believing that God won't give us more that we can handle, when it seems more like God is 'sitting this one out', as Keith said.<p>Keith:<p>You apparently love and want to stay with your wife, but your sexual frustration is getting overwhelming. (I can sympathize with ya on that one, bud.) If your wife's libido can't be turned up, can yours be turned down?<p>It seems that some of the women posting here have husbands who would have no problem in your position, because their sex drives are so low. Since increasing testosterone levels seems to increase sex drive, then lowering T. levels should reduce sex drive.<p>Does anyone know of a treatment or medicine to decrease T. levels, or partially (and temporarily) suppress T. production? A small reduction might reduce the intensity of your need to a more tolerable level, Keith, but at the same time NOT have undesirable side effects (like interfering with your desire to watch pro football!) <p>rrrr...Rrrrr...RRRRRRRR!<p>Doug (midkid40@hotmail.com)<p>