Val and Doug--- thanks, I needed some encouragement-I didn't know how what I said would be taken! And Val, you're right(and i was going to mention it in my post-but I get pretty long winded), there are a lot of worse things in life. When you look around at others in this world, you can begin to see how your problems aren't so big. A woman from our church just lost her husband (only 38 years old) to kidney failure--so, it's just herself and 3 small children now. I just am SO grateful to have my husband, who I know loves me very much,even though he is unable to meet my sexual needs. I can deal with that. Things like that really put things in perspective. <p>klamb9--You might just find that the more you're able to accept your situation and put your trust in God, that things will start to change for the better.

Val, Sherl, and Doug,<p>Very well put, all of you. I have tried to adopt this attitude in the last week or so and things around here have improved. I even got woken up the other night. Thank you all for your words and your feelings. <br>Hugs to you all.<p>Steph

Thanks for everyone's help. Altough I have not yet received a workable answer, I do appreciate everyones's help.<p>Long ago I decided to try to reduce (actually eliminate my need for sex). I pursued several medications and worked with my doctor and psychiatrist. All attempts failed miserably. Their advice was to just 'get a woman'. Castration was discussed but no doctor would consent, thankfully, but I don't think I would have been been able to go through it anyway. The docs said that castration for a human male would simply ruin their life anyway.<p>It was been suggested that I pray to God to remove my need for sex for the sake of sexual purity and for the sake of my marriage. About 15 years ago my prayer changed from "God, help us be man and wife as you intended" to "God help us be man and wife OR take away this terrible suffering of unmet need". It has been a daily prayer for over a decade. For some reason known only to Him, the prayer has either been ignored or I must interpret the answer as "No".<p>About 10 years ago it was clear that this situation was headed for catastrophy so I just prayed to give it to the Lord and decided to depend completely on Him to resolve it. The only thing that changed was that it kept getting worse.<p>V said "I also feel trapped between "what I need" and "what is right"...."I was desperately searching for that "option" that is physically and emotionally satisfying, yet ethically acceptable."<p>This is EXACTLY the situation I'm in. HOW COULD A CHRISTIAN FIND THEMSELVES IN THIS SITUATION? It appears that all options are sinful. I asked a counselor once how this could be, and his response was "you are fighting with your own value systems...a battle you can never win. THe answer lies in debating with yourself about the value of the value system...it isn't serving you well". I've thought a lot about this over the years.<p>After years of relentless effort and a sex life that as always really bad and has now become a desert, I am looking at the following escapable conclusions:<p>- My needs will not go away on their own, I cannot think them away, and God is not taking them way<br>- Divorce&affair are sinful and destructive<br>- There is no reasonable hope of meeting the needs using God's plan for marriage <br>- Without resolution, sexual immorality is bearing down on me like an oncoming freight train<p> I have held on as long as I can.<p> I am really freightened. Our many counselors, doctors, and pastor have simply run out of ideas-I do not have a single open recommendation left which we have not tried.<p>--------------------<p>Sherl asked about apnea: I have osa, diagnosed from a sleep study. I don't remember how many times I stopped breathing but they prescribed a CPAP machine which I couldn't tolerate using. So for now, I am untreated. I found not consent to surgery. I think your husband would improve immensely if he worked a normal 40-50 hr week.<p>

Keith,<p> I still don't have any real answers for you, just more rationalization, idealistic musings, and other such "fluff".<p>Someone mentioned the "ways to reduce a man's sex drive" question before, and castration (yeouch! Pretty drastic measures.) came to mind - and promptly left. There are probably other ways to reduce testosterone production, thereby lowering sex drive, but none that would be acceptable.<p>I never know how "religious" people are until they tip their hand, as many ofe us have here. You ask an interesting question though:"How could a Christian find themself in this situation?" - wondering why God would give us such a painful "itch" that we're not allowed to scratch. Answer: I have no idea. I do know that Paul asked God to remove the "thorn" from his flesh, and God said "His grace was enough" fo Paul. I don't know if theologians are sure what the "thorn" was, but we can certainly attest to having a similar condition.<p>I know that prayer sounds like empty advice to desperate people, especially those who have been praying. We know that God does hear our prayers, and answers them, but sometimes the answer is "no". God doesn't reveal all of His plans to us. Depending if you are a Calvinist or Arminian, you may have different views on what God controls, and what He allows us to control. (I KNEW I could slip that in somewhere!) Sometimes we have to let God be God. <p>Even though I've prayed the same prayers, being a fallen human, I can't help but think I can solve the problem myself. <p>I too, am afraid of what might come next. The "freight train" analogy is a good one, but not entirely complete. The train can hit us, but it won't kill us. We can recover, but we we be forever changed, damaged. We CAN step off of the tracks to avoid it though. The only problem is that we have to step into a pile of broken glass, or hot coals if you prefer. <p>We could "change" our value system, but changing what system we follow won't change what we know to be the truth. Even if we deny it, we'd only be lying to ourselves.<p>Bottom line: I don't have any more answers than the next guy. <p>Val<p>[This message has been edited by V (edited 01-20-99).]

klamb9- You say your relationship is great besides the sex problem - how can this be if you are so unhappy? Is she refusing to tackle her emotional problems and you are just letting it go? Am I being too hard on your wife - is it something she has no control over? This does not make sense to me but please keep in mind that the info I am going from is pretty limited.<p>It sounds like, based on your stated convictions, you know the answer to your question - sacrifice. You promised to love and cherish in sickness or in health - period. Jesus asked for "this cup" to be taken from him, but in God's wisdom it was not, and he obediently submitted to God's plan for his horrible death on the cross. This is not a feel good answer but it sounds like you don't like those. The Bible teaches that one will not be tempted with more than one can handle. Therefore, you can handle this. Are you afraid to claim this promise because it could mean you would have to admit this is God's will for your life right now and possible for years to come? Just playing devil advocate a little. It sounds like you have struggled with this for a long time - "All things work together for the good of those that love Christ." It's hard to swallow and understand sometimes, but the truth. There is peace and comfort in that. Do not stop praying - the Bible says to pray without ceasing! <p><p><br>

You sound exactly like me. I'm 38 and sexually unfulfilled. The issue has existed in our marriage since the beginning, however, I was unaware of it for the first seven years of our 15 year message.<br>I read, I pray, I ask pastors, counselors, go to counseling, all of it. I've prayed for accidental death to end my life, I'm miserable that my wife feels so inadequate, yahda, yahda, yahda<br>No one has a solution. I get pissed at God for not answering my prayers, masturbation leaves me feeling hollow, I fantasize about affairs and that makes me feel sinful. I guess its all kind of a crap shot and if you're lucky you get a woman that enjoys sex.<br>I miss sex, but I really miss the intimacy that goes along with it. I used to be in such a good mood after passionate sex and that, over the years, has pissed off my wife because she thinks the only reason I'm with her is for sex. She says she's not responsible for making me happy, which I can agree with to some extent, but if someone can make you sad aren't they resposible for that?<br>I struggle and struggle but am locked into a marriage that has produced three wonderful children that I do not want to hurt or raise in a broken home. I'm stuck.<br>I know my wife is just waiting for me to have an affair so she can terminate our sexual relations altogether. I won't. It's wrong and it wouldn't fulfil my needs anyway.<br>Maybe I'll get lucky and get cancer or something.<br>

LLC:<p>> You say your relationship is great besides the sex problem - how can this be if you are so unhappy? <p> I'm saying if we had a great sex life our marriage would be perfect. Yes, the terrible sex problems have spilled over into other areas and are degrading them, but sex is the ulimate problem.<p>> Is she refusing to tackle her emotional problems?<p> Absolutely not. She cannot fix these problems. She says she would fix them if she could - I believe her.<p>> It sounds like, based on your stated convictions, you know the answer to your question - sacrifice. You promised to love and cherish in sickness or in health - period.<p> Yes, but there were assumptions behind these promises - I did not consider these vows unconditional. I married to gain a Christian sex partner per I Cor. 7. The Bible is very clear that marriage is necessary for sex and that our partners are to be belivers. Ok, so I married according to scripture assuming (promise?) that God's plan for this union would be realized...I thought I was marrying according to His plan.<p>If I had known that I would be stuck in asexless marriage for life I never would have married. No way, not ever...why would I? What over reason is marriage required for? Basically, I married under the conditions of certain promises and expectations. You may say I was naive...yes I was...very but what do you expect from a horny 17 year old?<p>> Jesus asked for "this cup" to be taken from him, but in God's wisdom it was not, and he obediently submitted to God's plan for his horrible death on the cross. <p> Death I could handle, not torture. Even Jesus only suffered on the cross for 3 hours. I'm not minimizing His pain, only trying to make a comparison.<p>> Are you afraid to claim this promise because it could mean you would have to admit this is God's will for your life right now and possible for years to come? <p>As they say, my spirit is willing but my biology is not cooperating. <p>czechy: our situations sound so similar...let's chat. My email is klamb@columbus.rr.com<p>

Klamb, I just have to ask...did you only marry her to have a "christian sex partner"? Did you marry solely for the fact you can "legally" have sexual relations? Or if not solely, strongly for that reason? If so, maybe..just MAYBE..God is now questioning you on that. Now, don't get me wrong, I do not claim to know the mind of God. But I do know that occasionally, he tests us. He tests our faith, he tests our resilience. Maybe he wants you to see what you DO have...and perhaps maybe what you ignored before her illness/emotional problems took over. Perhaps he is testing your love and commitment to each other as Christians. Just a little food for thought.<p>You also said you've been praying for decades about this, with no "answer". I have to ask you this-wasn't that prayer selfish? God knows your needs better than you do! Perhaps you should try it this way: 1st, at the end of ANY prayer, say "Let God's will, not my own, be done." And LET IT GO. When you keep taking it back (by worrying, dwelling, anger, etc.) you're not allowing him to truly have it, and he cannot do anything with it if YOU are holding on to it!! He WILL NOT override our free will.<p>2nd, try praying for HER. Her health, her happiness, etc. If you take the focus off of you, you might find eventually, that you will have more peace, and less frustration and/or anger. Try it for two weeks solid, you might be utterly amazed!!

tommywife wrote:<p>"did you only marry her to have a "christian sex partner"? <p> This has come up on counseling before were we were asked to rank our reasons for marrying. Mine was 80% to gain a legitimate Christian sex partner, and 20% to get a life-long Christian companion. My wife gave 10 reasons, none of which had anything to do with sex. Her main reason: to be able to depend upon someone to take care of her...someone who would never leave her. I asked her "then why not just get a big bank account and a dog?". Her answer: dogs don't live long enough...neither do parents.<p>I have been asked this by counselors: If you knew you would never have a sex life with your wife, or that God sanctioned sex outside of marriage, would you still have married?<p>Answer: definitely not.<p>I married because I was always taught you had to marry to have sex. I also took I Cor 7 literally...I could not trust myself around girls so, 'it is not wrong for him to marry'. I took this advice and promise literally. I was so tortured by the discomfort of unmet sexual needs that I sought out my pastor. He said something about these urges as completely normal and that he suggested I get married..'that is God's way". I took his advice.<p>I have received much advice about prayer in this forum. I simply cannot imagine a prayer than I have not said a thousand times...every conceivable permutation. Despite my fervent prayers, the situation continued a steady decline from our wedding week until now. <p>Outside of a miracle (which I'm still prayer for), I no longer believe there is any reasonable expectation that we will ever be 'husband and wife' in the way God intended. I am not blaming for finding fault, I'm just being realistic. <p>So, after following all the 'rules' as I understand them, I am searching for what provision God has for this situation. It doesn't seem that all my options should be sinful. <p>Do you think that God thinks there are little sins and big sins...are there degrees of sin? If not, when all your choices are sinful, how do you decide what to do? Perhaps if God thinks all sin is sin then I should choose the choice which is least harmful to others? <br>

klamb9 wrote:<p>"So, after following all the 'rules' as I understand them, I am searching for what provision God has for this situation. It doesn't seem that all my options should be sinful."<p>There is one option which isn't sinful and that is to accept the situation as it is. God knows what you're going through. He also knew some would be in your position when he only provided two reasons for divorce. I'm in a similar situation only my husband simply doesn't want to reciprocate sexually. He likes to be the recipient several times a week but gives once every two or three years. Pretty soon he won't be in a position to give as he has a degenerative disease which is going to require me to care for his every need for the rest of his life. But I don't find any scripture that supports me leaving him or finding another partner.<p>"Do you think that God thinks there are little sins and big sins...are there degrees of sin?"<p>Sin separates us from God. Not a good choice any way you look at it.<p>

beanie wrote: <p>"There is one option which isn't sinful and that is to accept the situation as it is."<p>I understand this, that's why I'm asking...HOW??? How do you just make yourself asexual...how do you just shut down this freight-train of a sex drive?<p>My spirit is reluctantly willing, my biology won't cooperate one slightest little bit.<p>

klamb9 wrote:<p>"I understand this, that's why I'm asking...HOW??? How do you just make yourself asexual...how do you just shut down this freight-train of a sex drive?<br>My spirit is reluctantly willing, my biology won't cooperate one slightest little bit."<p>Possibly the same way an alcoholic accepts that he can't have even one drink or a diabetic chocoholic accepts that sweets are not an acceptable diet choice? Not easy but, like a recovering alcoholic, we have little choice in the matter since there are no alternatives acceptable in God's sight. I like the serenity prayer: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference.<br> <br>

klamb9,<p>Okay, so I know I'm REALLY going out on a limb here, and I can guarantee I'll be flamed, but has anyone else ever stopped to think after reading all these posts, "Boy, blind acceptance of religion sure is ruining a lot of lives?" <p>When we become wedded to our beliefs sometimes happiness is elusive. Just a thought. <p>I wish you much luck in your quest for happiness,<br>Sue

Hi Deliliah, (Sue)<p> No flame, just a question or two. OK, first I'll say here that nobody's who's posted on this thread seems to be "blindly" accepting religion, they all seem to be looking pretty deeply into it, and striving to follow God's instructions.<p> The question is, if we don't accept God's instructions as directions for how to live our lives, then who's should we follow? <p> If we were to disregard God's laws on how we should live, and go by man's, the answer to Keith's question - and mine, and lots of others - would be simple: Divorce that woman (or man) who's not meeting your needs, and find one who will.<p> The again, we could always follow the example of our leader in Washington: Hey, don't worry about being married at all, find some horny chick (or guy) at work and get your jollies on the side - it'll just be our little secret. (Besides, it's not really "sex" anyway, right?)<p> Anybody can simply solve problems if they're alowed to change the rules whenever they don't suit our short-term desires. It's living within God's rules that is a true test of our character. Not that we can ever live totally within God's laws as fallen men (in the theological sense, not the adulterous meaning) but we know that obidience pleases God and sin is abhorant to Him.<p>One of Keith's counsellors pointed out that he was "fighting his belief system", that's true. We all do this every day however. That's why we tell the cashier at the supermarket that they gave us too much change, when we'd rather keep the money. <p> I think that someone once defined "character" as "what you do when nobody's watching you". <p> Are you proposing that we discard our religious beliefs because it's more fun to sin? That's a very popular option, it seems.<p>Val<p>PS. I read your post again, and wanted to point out something even more important: It's not FOLLOWING God's laws (what you call "religion") that's ruining our lives and causing unhappiness, it's the failure TO follow them that is the CAUSE of ALL mankind's problems.<p>If we were to all unconditionally love our mates (and they, us), we would meet every need. It would be a virtual love-fest every day. We would all be faithful, think our mate was the mose beautiful person on earth, and do anything for them. Of course, there'd be no wars, no death, no disease, no crime, and we'd all still be living in the garden of Eden taking walks in the cool of the evening with our Creator.<p>So there!<p>[This message has been edited by V (edited 01-29-99).]

beanie wrote in regarding to my plea to know how to satisfy my sexual needs without my wife:<p>"Possibly the same way an alcoholic accepts that he can't have even one drink or a diabetic chocoholic accepts that sweets are not an acceptable diet choice? Not easy but, like a recovering alcoholic, we have little choice in the matter since there are no alternatives acceptable in God's sight. "<p>This is a common response. But sexuality isn't like alchoholism. No one needs alchohol, it is an artificial addiction created by man. You can live just fine without out it. Sex is very different. It is a biological need created by God. It is not His intention that a married man live a celibate lifestyle is it? Certainly not. And unlike the alcoholic, you cannot escape biological and emotional sexual needs...if you go cold-turkey it just gets worse and worse not better and better. I liken the need and feeling to not being willing to urinate. Pray all you want, but sooner or later your body will take action for you! <p>For me at least, there is no possibly to 'just live with it' (or live without it as the case may be). <p>If you accept my proposition that I do not have the ability to live a forced celibate lifestyle and that my wife's sexual disability is total and permanent, then I am still left with the same unanswered question:<p>How is a Christian man trying to honor his wife and God supposed to meet these needs? 'Just live with it' is not a workable solution. And praying for God to take away the need has not worked so I must assume that God does not want me to be asexual. So now what? <p>Everyday that passes the situation grows more tense. I think I'm going to explode.<p>- Keith

Forgive me as I've only scanned some of the replies but has your wife read His Needs, Her Needs? My husband and I have discussed issues very close to this because I was "shy" at first due to witnessing some things I shouldn't have been exposed to early in life. It was an emotional block (even though I was a girl who went to Catholic school - ha ha) and not physical. Through a lot of talk and intimacy, we now have a great sex life. However, it took time and patience. I didn't want sex cuz I thought of if it as dirty, crude and "bad". We worked through it together - I had to do my part because that's marriage. Has your wife done her share? I'm so glad we did work it out - now I want it more than he does. We've also discovered other things to do when one of the 2 of us is unable for whatever reason to fulfill the other. If your wife is truely willing to get a "cure" then she must see you have needs just like she does. Have you met her other needs? Has she meet your other needs? I would agree though, divorce and infidelity (consented to or not) are not answers. We all have crosses to bear but a lot of them can be at least lightened with some work. Good luck and if I can be of any help in regards to what we did, I'm at skagel@yahoo.com

Klamb, forgive me if I seemed to be minimizing your dilemma. I admire you for desiring to respond to your problem as God intends. However, I don't believe there's anything in Scripture indicating God ever sanctions infidelity as an anwer to any problem. Sin always has a way of bringing unforseen consequences so I urge you to think carefully before using infidelity as an answer.

beanie wrote: forgive me if I seemed to be minimizing your dilemma. <p> No offense taken, you are not minimizing my dilemma...you are minimizing my choices. Like everyone else responding here in this forum, you are reaffirming how bad all my choices are. I am quite aware of this.<p>> I urge you to think carefully before using infidelity as an answer. <br> <br> Believe me, I thought plenty about it. Realization of how bad this option isn't something I'm lacking. What I lack are workable options which are more less harmful.<p>There are two responses which I find less than useful...that one that suggest I repress my needs (those that deny the need for sexual expression) and the ones which admonish me to avoid divorce or adultery.<p>Come on people...my wife is totally sexually disabled with no reasonable expectation of improvement. As Dr. Harley points out, sex is a unique marital need because it is on the only need which has no legitimate fulfillment outside of the marriage. I have needs too and mine has no legitimate outlet. What is a guy like me supposed to do? <p>My wife doesn't want a divorce and neither do I. I am coming up with zero answers here. <p>I am absolutely desperate for a workable, timely, legitimate solution. I cannot come up with one and its seems neither can anyone else.

Keith, this message is not intended to be mean spirited in any way. But you are expecting something from us that we do not have: the ability to provide you a miracle. If, as you continue to repeat, your wife's disability is complete and permanent, the only options open to you are the ones which you have mentioned and every one else has mentioned: 1. do not have sex or 2. have sex with someone other than your wife. These are the only options. Under number 2, there are a few sub-options: A) have an affair without your wife's knowledge; B) have an affair with your wife's knowledge; C) get divorced and find someone else to marry and share a sexual relationship with.<p>You are insisting that there must be another option, and as people attempt to explain or redefine the options that have been discussed over and over, you seem to feel that they are at fault for not finding an answer that you like. I hate to say it, but perhaps there isn't an answer you will like.<p>You keep insisting that your wife's sexual problem is permanent and there is no way around it. No one is required to share the details of their situations, but you cannot expect anything more from us than what you have gotten with the information you provide. Please accept that everyone here has done their best to help and support you - there is nothing more that we can do except rehash the choices we have thought of and that you find unacceptable.<p>I hope you find peace.<p>terri

Dear terri and others:<p>Again I have failed to explain myself fully, my appologies. <p>You wrote: "You are insisting that there must be another option..."<p>...no I'm not. By insisting that extramarital sex is not the answer, everyone else (including this forum, my wife, pastor, etc) is indirectly telling me that there must another [better] option. I just want to know what it is.<p>"...and as people attempt to explain or redefine the options that have been discussed over and over, you seem to feel that they are at fault for not finding an answer that you like. "<p>No one is at fault to not having an answer. This is tough situation that hasn't been given any provision. I must say I find it hurtful to point the finger at me for considering such terrible choices when no better idea has been put forward.<p>> "I hate to say it, but perhaps there isn't an answer you will like."<p>The only thing I expect from the forum is honesty and frankness. Its OK to say that extramartial sex is the only choice, despite how much we all hate this idea. I hate it too. But everyone is telling me not do this...they say its wrong. Fine...then WHAT is right?<p>Can you see my dilemma? I'm not mad I haven't been given a better choice I'm resentful that the only option I can see is being slammed in my face. What else is there for me to do? What does God, my wife, the church, and fellow Christians expect of me? The only answer I have is that extramarital sex and sexual repression are not the answer to my problem.<p>Ok fine...then what is the answer?<p>Bottom line: How can infidelity be 'wrong' when there are no 'right' options?<p>I hurt enough already folks...I need a practical workable solution or at least sympathy and prayer. Please do not bash the victim(s).<p><br>