I mention K because he has first hand knowledge, other do as well. Please all that have an opinion respond.<P>I have come to somewhat of a dilemma. I realize this may come across as cold or callous but I'm battling this within myself to no end. It would appear that as time goes on so does my hope. I feel myself sinking further into depression over my circumstances. I have all but given up hope of getting custody of the kids (after speaking to a dozen or so attorneys ). So enters the real problem, my fourth son is not biologically mine, and now I'm having feelings to the effect that once the marriage is dissolved should my "father ship" to him be also? When all this started I agreed to accept him as my son both because I loved my W and the Lord impressed me that way. Kind of like in accepting my W back I accepted OC as well. But know I'm lost. I do not feel anything from the Lord as far as he goes. I do not feel the Lord guiding me to right things with my W.<P>This is and has caused me much anguish. I feel at times as though it were a "package deal". With my W came OC and that was fine. She is leaving and part of me feels that my obligation to him is too. Part of me still feels I should still treat him no different. I do not treat him bad now and I'm sure I never would, but I can not help but fear that me losing her and the resentment it has caused will eventually affect him. Plus he is so young that if she remarries chances are he will take up with the new "guy" as his father because of the time spent with him verses me.<P>Of course there is also the plus and negatives that are outside of my feelings. One being that in not claiming him it decreases the financial strain that this will cause. Flip side to that is that in not claiming him I would have to name his real father. He would tracked down and forced to pay child support and may get visitation. This would devastate my W and judging by his character would not be good for my son.<P>I realize this may get flamed which is fine, but I need all the advice I can get right now. All responses are appreciated. This will cross-posted in the OC Forum for input as well. Thanks<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Well, when you finally settle on an attorney, have one of his first orders of business be to write her or her attorney and ask whether she wants you to bow out of OC's life. This is <I>not</I> using OC as a pawn because STBXW would probably be hurt if she <I>wasn't</I> given a choice (even though the choice may be lead-pipe obvious). Then your offer will probably help crystallize her thinking, hopefully in your favor as she realizes with horror the implications of having to go after that old flame for support.<P>You have an ongoing duty to OC, but it sounds as though you never really gave up thinking of him as OC. If that is the case, it may be better for him to know who his bio-dad is, even though bio-dad may be no prize. You don't know whether bio-dad mightn't even straighten up and fly right if he were faced with his responsibilities.<P>In other words, express a willingness to continue in your role, or relinquish it at her option. It would be far more damaging to the child to have you trying to continue on a fatherly basis while STBXW undermines you behind your back, which is something she may do if she doesn't get to make <I>her</I> choice. If she chooses <I>you</I> and then later starts playing games, you will be in a position to remind her that it was indeed <I>her</I> choice, and should not lightly be repudiated.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 05, 2001).]

Because you and your stbxw share other children, the OC will always be a part of your life as half-brother/sister to your children. On those grounds alone, I believe you could reasonable argue (request) some joint visitation time without being financially obligated for Child Support of the child.<P>However, I have seen in many court cases where a psuedo-father has been held financially liable even when proven through DNA he could not be the father...because he has been the only father the child has ever known. I think the court will consider that as well.<P>I agree with Sis, I think the ball is in your stbxw court right now - and you need to find out what her desire/intention is...then see how that matches up with your own.<P>Tough situation - I sympathize!<P>Lisa

She whole-heartedly wants me to claim him as my own. At least that's what she tells me, but I hear her make "jokes" about how funny it would be to send pictures and stuff to OM to make him feel bad. Makes me feel just great.

Paul,<P>You are a god-fearing, loving, spiritual man. I understand how you feel that your son (OC) and your W were a "package deal", and that if you W is leaving, maybe so should your son. However, consider this from your son's point of view. I do not know this child's age, but I believe you have said that this child thinks of and knows YOU as his father--in the sense that you are the man in his life who has raised him, loved him, and been there for him. Men donate sperm to create babies all the time, but being a real father is a deliberate choice. Imagine the shock that this innocent child would feel to discover that you were not his "sperm donor" and now you no longer want to be his "dad" either! I doubt if you son really cares who was the sperm donor to create him right now. But I bet, since his mom and dad are splitting up, he REALLY cares about whether he somehow caused this break up and whether both his mom and his dad still love him.<P>In "real life", there are many, very legitimate legal reasons to leave this child, but to compound this already intensely painful situation by telling your son that you are no longer his dad--Paul, come on! You love this child, no matter who donated the sperm to make him. This child loves you, whether you made him or not. Furthermore, you will become a LIVING example of commitment, dedication, morality and love by living your life as you know you should DESPITE HOW YOU FEEL! You will be a live example to all four of your children that often, choosing the higher moral road is NOT the easier way, the cheaper way, or the way the "feels good." Often, we have to live our lives in a way that pleases God, and it is hard, and painful, and requires that we give of ourselve BEYOND what we are capable of giving. <P>Paul, God does not always strike you with lightening to "guide" you when you already know what you are supposed to do. Now, I have to tell you that in reality there probably is not a legal obligation, and that you probably could name the other father and make him pay (by the technicality of the law), so I'm speaking here purely from a spiritual point of view. You know what you are supposed to do, Paul, so pray for the courage to do what you are called to do, and I'll pray with you! I am confident that what you lack on your own, God will provide!<P>{{{{{{{{{{Paul}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>You're in my thoughts and prayers,<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Moyers:<BR><B>She whole-heartedly wants me to claim him as my own. At least that's what she tells me, but I hear her make "jokes" about how funny it would be to send pictures and stuff to OM to make him feel bad. Makes me feel just great.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, the attorney's letter should make her face the joke as a real possibility...<P>OTOH, you may want to check with that attorney ... if I recall correctly, OC was conceived *during* the time you were married? In some states you <I>can't</I> disavow him, regardless of his "actual" paternity. As will all legislative good intentions in the family law area, that one can be a mixed bag. On the whole though, he's better off being thought of as "yours". <P>It's just sad that your STBXW would even toy with the idea of playing emotional games like that.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 05, 2001).]

Paul,<P>I can understand your feelings, your are in a tough situation there.<P>IMHO, I would say continue to provide your role of father to this boy. You may be the only positive male role model this boy has given your w's current behavior.<P>Why don't you have a chance for custody? I understand that morality doesn't factor into the divorce, but is it just because she is the mother? <P>Best of luck and God's Blessings,<P>Bob

Paul,<P>I know a young man named Patrick. He is about 23 yrs old and is just finishing up Architectural college. I have full faith that he will be a very talented architect. Patrick's "father" is named Tom. When Patrick was about 5 yrs old? Tom and his wife split up. From what I know about the story, Patrick first went to live with his biological mother (Tom's wife). But soon after, Patrick and Tom were reunited. Tom did a fine job of raising Patrick, never once referring to him as anything other than "his son".<P>Now I see Patrick just about finished his education - a good young man. A young man who had a very nurturing and solid up-bringing. This story could be yours, for Patrick was not Tom's biological son. Tom's wife had Patrick before her and Tom were married.<P>One of the most meaningful moments in Patrick's life was when, at the age of 14, Tom legally adopted Patrick as his own true son.<P>You see Tom never viewed Patrick as some other man's son - He was his son. It would have been so much easier, in so many ways if Tom had just discarded Patrick when Tom and his wife broke up (which was a pretty bad split). But he didn't. Tom was not thinking of himself or of his wife. His thoughts were of his son - Patrick.<P>I don't tell this story to appeal to your guilt, but rather to tell of a true story of love. Not love for a wife, not even love for one's own biological son - It was the love a man had for an innocent child. The love that compelled this man to "be" that child's father, no matter what...<P>Maybe it isn't that you don't know what the Lord wants you to do, but rather you do know but you are having a hard time listening. Believe me, I know it wouldn't be easy on you - It will probably be a very difficult thing to do - one with many sacrifices. But think of the child......<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

FaithfulWife: You know me too well. My "spiritual" side is what's causing me the most grief right now. I'm not as worried about the money, I'm not as worried about my W's feelings. I do worry about my son and how he will grow up. I worry about how I might feel if when she remarries and he starts calling the new person Dad because he is so young. I worry that he will hate me. In the beginning God gave me guidance, but in this matter I have felt no guidance. i spoke with my minister last night and explained the situation. He told me God would not condemn me if I did not raise the child, he compared it to getting married to someone that has kids and then divorcing, of course I wouldn't be responsible then. But he also told me that he could tell I loved my son very much and that he wondered if I could live with the condemnation that I would place upon myself. He told me to pray and that the decision is within myself.<P>Sisyphus: I live in a presumed paternity state, but at my son's age, 9 months, it is still early enough that I could file "motions" and do the DNA route and have myself excluded. I also found out that I would not have to name the father. No father would have to be named and the only way a father would be forced to be named is if she went on public assistance and then she would have to name him, not me. That part at least would lessen the burden on me. A little.<P>RWD: Custody? Well let me tell you why, In our great system the courts favor the parent who is generally the "primary" care giver. What is a primary care giver? The one that has spent the most time with them, the one that takes them to Dr appointments, the one that picks them up from school, the one that stays home when they are sick. My W does all that. Why? When we first got married I PROMISED my W that with the Lord's help she would never have to work. If I had to get multiple jobs to support our family I would, and in the past I have, multiple jobs, I worked two jobs and went to school full time to get a better education so that I could do better for my family. The Lord has allowed me to be able to provide for them without her working. And now in reward for all that hard work, I have no chance of custody. She is the primary care giver. <P>SoTired2000: I have thought of exactly what you said. I say that have received no guidance but you are suggesting that I have and perhaps missed or ignored it. Possible. I'd be the first to admit to missing something with my emotions on constant defense. I have spoken with my minister and will resume the diligent prayer for an answer, I hope it comes soon.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Last summer I read a book entitled something like "Listening for God, a minister's journey..." or maybe it was "Waiting for God....." It was about the periods we go through when we can't hear God. He's there but we just don't get the message. It might be helpful at this time.<P>Paul, forget what you legally ought to do. What do you feel is the God-centered choice? The one closest to His heart?<P>At the times when I am most confused about what to do, that is the question I ask myself.

Paul. <P>I to believe I'm a spritual man. I have talked to my minister many times. God bless him for some of the talks have gone on for hours at a time. I think He (God) talks to me. I let him lead my day(s). I have come to a conclusion about the time I don't feel him talking. <P>He leads me, He Teaches me, He loves me. There are times when I don't understand what I should do. My conclusion is: Maybe, just Maybe he knows I know what to do. He has given me what it takes to make a good decision. He is waiting for me to make the call and do what he has taught me all my life. This doesn't mean he has abanduned me. I already have what it takes to make the right decision. Ergo there are 2 sets of foot prints in the sand. <P>My .02$. <P>Good Luck.. ;o) <P>He is with you, now and always, have NO DOUBT!!!<P>

cinderella: You know that's the real problem, I don't feel anything as far as God leading me. That's why I'm asking people here. In hopes that through others opinions and prayer that I will find what I should do within myself.<P>AgoodManInTexas: It's good to know there are other like this. I am beginning to wonder if my resentment for my W for causing all this is clouding my "vision" and affecting the way I view things. Perhaps the answer is there and I don't see it, perhaps I should pray fro clarity instead of an answer? I believe I'm at the one set right now, looking forward to getting back to two.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Paul,<P>I am a woman who seeks God's face daily, and I have learned two things that are very valuable. One is that you can not use your "feelings" as a guide for God speaking to you. Feelings are too fickle and too attached to what I call "worldly influences." In this instance, a person needs to depend on their intellect and their "thinking" side, to DO what they KNOW is right...sometimes even if they don't feel happy or warm and fuzzy. For me, this is a struggle, because I am very in touch with my "feeling" side and I need to discipline myself to let my "thinking" side rule. <P>Second, I've learned that God will hit you on the head with a frying pan if He has to, but that is usually the last resort--not the first. He usually speaks through wise council (people you know who are your teachers and whom you know love and seek God), through children, through His word (the Bible, the Torah, etc.), and through quietness. Most of the time, I have to stop myself, quiet down, and be ready to hear the quiet voice of God. Very rarely is it a thunder clap or a lightening bolt--more often I've heard God's voice in the wind, in the mountains, on the water, or in the whisper of the pines. Seriously. I've also learned to use the quiet of the night, when I can't sleep, as the quiet time to LISTEN. <P>So, although I completely understand that you are seeking God's face and it seems like He's not responding, I'd have to say that He has already given you the answer, but you just haven't heard it. I believe it is like your minister said, the answer is within you, and that's why God seems to not be talking--He has already spoken. I would advise taking some quiet time and LISTENING.<P>You're in my thoughts and prayers,<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Paul, the undercurrent here is that without you, the child will have only a <I>n'er do well</I> sperm donor as a father and your troubled STBXW for a mother ... <P>Would God want a child to grow up that way?

Faithfulwife, sisyphus: My "ears" are open. I just got back from speaking with my attorney. All in all very incouraging. She is very nice and very understanding of my "situation". She is of the mindset that what I "need" done in this divorce, in order to minimize resentment and hard feelings, can be done.<P>My attorney has proposed that in the dissolution agreement that WE, W and I, acknowledge that youngest is not biologically mine but that I will retain all "Father rights", meaning visitation and upbringing. Supposedly this way will absolve me from the financial but allow me to be his father. Also if he ever looks back at this it will look as if I CHOSE to be his father, not as if the court forced me to. For some reason this makes me feel better.<P>Any thoughts?<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Excellent and innovative solution. <P>Paul, may I tell you an interesting story? I met the man who would become my H in 1986. I was NOT an exemplary citizen then, and due to loose living, one month after meeting him, I was pregnant (yes, by him!) <P>Anyway, I decided to keep the baby, because I did not feel that two wrongs would make a right (God was beginning to bang me on the head), and he decided that he wanted to be the baby's dad, whether we stayed together or not. Thus, 9 months later, my oldest son was born. We considered whether we should get married or not, but we thought it would be better if we married because we wanted a marriage, not because we were pregnant! Okay, when you've stopped laughing, I'll continue. <P>Well, a couple of years later, when my son was almost 3yo, we finally decided to get married. However, all that time, my son had carried my maiden name. It sounds foolish, but I did not name a father on the birth certificate because I didn't want him to feel "tied down" if he didn't want to stay. I also didn't want to have to go through the BS of child support if he left--I figured I would just work hard. Hey! I was only 20 something at the time, so give me a break. So, when we decided that we did want to get married, we included in the ceremony that my H would formally adopt our son. <P>Now, 14 years later, we still celebrate his "adoption day" as a special day of saying, "We love you and choose you as our son."<P>See? The answer was there!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Moyers:<BR><B>Supposedly this way will absolve me from the financial but allow me to be his father. <P>Also if he ever looks back at this it will look as if I CHOSE to be his father, not as if the court forced me to. For some reason this makes me feel better.<P>Any thoughts?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let's see. You <I>chose</I> to be my father but <I>chose not</I> to acknowledge the financial side of that bond.<P>Huh? Does this make sense, folks?<P>Has that rock rolled back and hit me in the head one too many times, or is something logically inconsistent here? Or at least inconsistent from the future viewpoint of a grown child in trade school who was in holed shoes and rags while his college-bound siblings were well-provided for.<P>Even if you <I>do</I> treat OC the same, the paper that makes that <I>optional</I> will, one day, be outed. And what a mess that will be.