Klamb9<br>You wrote "I hurt enough already folks...I need a practical workable solution or at least sympathy and prayer."<p>Believe me, you have my sympathy and prayer. I don't think anyone here is trying to bash you. Your situation is an extremely difficult one.<p>"Bottom line: How can infidelity be 'wrong' when there are no 'right' options?"<p>Rewrite that to "How can sin be 'wrong' when there are no options without sin." <p>I'm reminded of the guy (can't remember his name) who was struck dead for touching the ark of the covenant when it looked like it was going to fall. He thought he had no other options because he couldn't see allowing it to fall to the ground. <p>You're definitely in the fires of testing but I know if you keep your eyes on the prize, you'll come out the other side with a "well done good and faithful servant" when all is finished.

beanie wrote: <p> "Bottom line: How can infidelity be 'wrong' when there are no 'right' options?"<p> Rewrite that to "How can sin be 'wrong' when there are no options without sin." <p>Bernie, this is also a valid way to state my problem...you have a good grasp of my predictament. <p>Yet another way to rephrase this is "What should a Christian do when all their optinos are sinful?". My answer has been to seek another option [which might not be sinful]. I have been unsuccessful.<p>Your example of the guy who was killed for touching the ark is a good one if it is also true that it was sinful to let the Ark touch the ground and the guy was commanded to keep it off the floor. One important difference was that when this guy sinned, he was put out of his misery. <p>> You're definitely in the fires of testing but I know if you keep your eyes on the prize, you'll come out the<br>other side with a "well done good and faithful servant" when all is finished.<p>Not to rehash the old original subject, but, as you say...this is my goal. I need only to know the secret of how to accomplish this. I know the goal, I don't know how to get there without sinning.

Klamb9<p>You wrote:<br>"Not to rehash the old original subject, but, as you say...this is my goal. I need only to know the secret of how to accomplish this. I know the goal, I don't know how to get there without sinning."<p>We could go round and round about this indefinitely but this isn't the place for a debate on sin. I hope everything turns out well for you and your wife whatever you decide to do.

Klamb, we do empathize with your situation. I know it must be hard, horrible, discouraging, baffling, etc. But reading your posts it almost sounds like you want someone to tell you that it's okay to have an affair in these disastrous circumstances which are beyond your control. That's what I'm seeing, anyway. Well, let me tell you a little story about what CAN happen with an affair. <br>When my Mother was 40, she met a man at her work that she started seeing, and fell in love with. I don't know how long they dated, but eventually she found out he was married-with 4 kids!! The next day, she found out SHE was pregnant!!! (with me)<br>She was very angry and hurt, not to mention confused, being that she was now pregnant with this married man's child. He had lied to her to have a need met. He told her he'd been divorced, and he'd had a vasectomy. Now, my mother is pretty naive about a lot of things sexual, so she didn't question that when he told her. WEll, SURPRISE!!! His wife wasn't meeting his needs, because she was ill, and (i found this out later from my half-siblings) a complete b---h. Well, my Mom didn't want to break up a family, so she told my Dad not to try to see me, and that she didn't want any support for this child, that it would be best if he went on his way. At first he did try to see me, but after a short while, gave up because my Mother wouldn't allow it and his wife had found out about the two of them, but still didn't know about me, and she was already threatening my Mother at the time. So, in short, I HAD NO DADDY. All because someone had to have a "need" met. Now, I don't totally blame my mother for my Dad not being there. He could've come clean and fought it through the courts, and he didn't. I never really did establish a relationship with him, even once his wife died. But it's left me empty. And it didn't have to happen that way!! I onced asked him if he ever felt guilty cheating on his wife like that...he said "NO". What a great guy. (RIGHT!) He wanted what he wanted, when he wanted it, and that was that...but I paid the price. YOU BEST THINK ABOUT THAT. It could happen to you!

tommywife:<p>I'm so sorry of hear of your terrible experience. I couldn't help but feel your anger come through. The situation you describe is tragic for sure but its completely and utterly different than the one I am involved with. You blame the affair and unmet sexual needs of other humans as the cause for your great hurt. The real culprit here isn't sex, but rather the person(s) involved and their deceit, lies, and just plain lack of consideration for others. <p>The real tragedy of this was the unplanned and unwanted pregnacy. How does your view change if I told you I was sterile and would be totally frank with any partner and visa versa? <p>I noticed you kept using the word 'surprize'. Does this tell you something?<p>But I digress, what is your suggestion for a better solution for me? No fair bashing the options if you don't have a better one. I am keenly aware of the disadvantages of each of my options. I as kinda hoping I'd missed one or that someone might have insight into ways I can deal with these options in the least harmful ways.<p>I am still searching for and praying for a real solution which isn't so harmful. So far, I'm coming up zilch.<p>

Divorce her- you'll be doing her the favor.

Klamb,<br>I truly admire your strength. This is obviously very hard on you. Especially since no one has the 'answer' for you. I don't have it either. I hope in some way it helps to know that we are all concerned for you. I hate to say it but I feel the BEST 'answer' given all that's been said is for you to live a sexually unfulfilled life. What an awful 'answer', I know. The only suggestions I can give are these(and please remember, these are only suggestions, no need to respond as to why they wont work): Basically, you need to care for yourself. You need to try ANYTHING that will lessen your need for sex(or your THINKING about sex). That could be new hobbies or a different schedule at work or at home. Anything that can divert your attention from your thoughts about sex. If sleeping with your wife makes you think about sex at all, you should think about sleeping in another room. If holding hands or kissing make you think about sex you should try eliminating or decreasing those. It may be that meeting some of your W's emotional needs is causing your need for sex to worsen so you may need to limit meeting her needs - not as a punishment to her, but as a way to help you. I know you can't eliminate your need completely but hopefully you can get something from these suggestions. The fact is that sex is not going to happen, and you need to deal with that in some way if you choose to stay married and faithful. Like, I said, I hope you can get something from the suggestions, hopefully they can help you think of your own things to do to limit your thoughts on the subject. Good luck,<br>Kinny

OK, Keith. One more try. Take it for what it's worth.<p>You mentioned earlier that you were relatively happy with other aspects of your marriage, except for your wife's inability to meet your need for sex. So, I'm assuming that if this sex-drive mis-match could be remedied, you would want to remain married.<p>I realize it's very difficult to just 'live with' an unsatisfied need for sex. (I, and many others are doing just that, and it ain't no fun! Since you believe your wife's libido cannot be raised, then perhaps yours can be lowered, to a level where you CAN 'live with' the ethical options you have available: the limited sexual interaction your wife IS capable of, and masturbation.<p>I suggested earlier the investigation of methods of reducing blood testosterone levels, either by medication or surgical means. This assumes that by lowering T. levels, sex drive would be reduced. In your situation, this would be an advantageous change, I think.<p>Another possibility occurred to me while reading in the 'Infidelity' forum, in a thread entitled "Anti-Depressants and Other Medication". In addition to improving your outlook on life (which can be pretty crappy when you're not getting any!), many of these anti-depressants also reduce libido to varying degrees. While most people would want to minimize the reduction in libido, you might opt for the maximum reduction in libido. Thus, such an anti-depressant would have a double benefit for you.<p>Because my own sex life is unlikely to improve any time soon, I am considering asking my doctor about this at my next appointment.<p>Maybe when it comes to a spouse with low sex drive, the old advice is true: "If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em!"<br>

Whoops! Double post.<br><p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited 02-03-99).]

Doug, your suggestion of a medical solution is excellent. I started investigating this about 3 years ago. I saw several psychiatrists (MDs), my personal physician and sex therapists regarding it. After much hesitancy on the doctor's part, I was able to try several antidepressants. I was very hopeful that they could be a important cruch to help me deal with my difficulty. Here is my experience for any benefit it might bring to others who have thought of this:<p>The drugs had no effect other than to make me very ill. The doctor said that many people don't experience libido depression affects anyway so in order to make any meaningful impact on my sex drive I would need to be on 'super doses' but I couldn't get anywhere close to this because I just couldn't tolerate the drugs. The doctors (not me) declined any further treatment and refused to give additional prescriptions. I got the distinct impression that they thought being on high doses of antidepressants to help with marriage problems for the rest of my life was simply crazy. If it would help me over a very temporary problem (a few weeks or months) then they said it MIGHT be helpful.<p>I also investigated castration, both chemical and physical. Besides the warning that such treatment would 'ruin' my life, the doctors refused to treat me without a court order or evidence of life-threatening disorder (like cancer). They said that no reasonable physician would participate in such treatment for the reasons I gave. They universally thought that it was easier, safer and healthier to just get a girl friend. Bottom line, I didn't get much sympathy from the several doctors I saw so I just dropped the whole thing. I really don't want to be castrated anyway.<p>By the way, I wanted to make a comment on the previous post which recommended what doctors call 'repression', that is, the suggestion that I alter my life in extreme ways to try to push the problem out of my consciousness and avoid the pain and temptation of dealing with the problem. This has been essentially what I've been doing for a while. Besides the fact that repression is notoriously ineffective, my therapist last week was very firm with me (and a bit upset) saying that this is a very unhealthy thing to do and he wanted me to stop my long-term repression habits immediately. I am still not planning to sleep in the same room with my wife no matter what he says. He wants me to face the problem, not run from it. He also thinks that everything I do to insolate myself from intimacy with my wife is a step in the wrong direction. <p>Repression and drugs, I thought, where good suggestions. Keep those ideas coming.<br>

Klamb, yes, I WAS a surprise to my Mother-she thought he'd been 'sterilized'! Yes, there were lies. IF you truly ARE sterile, and your wife knows and approves of your plans, then go to it! But other than those two things, I personally wouldn't recommend it. For one thing, if you aren't sterile, even if you use some form of birth control, accidents happen!! And it falls on the heads of the children-it's sad, but TRUE. If your wife doesn't approve or agree with you on this, you may end up divorced anyway, because of the hurt, anger, not to mention GUILT (because she knows she can't help you in this area) that it would cause in your marriage. If you can live with that, that's up to you. If not, then masturbate, masturbate, masturbate!! It's not the greatest, but it's not the worst, and it's certainly better than nothing at all!! I personally have a friend who is male who has not had sexual intercourse (in any form) in 3 years. Sure, he would like to, but with his busy schedule and being a single father with joint physical custody, he just deals with it. When he's not working (which is about 60 hours a week-he's trying to start up his own business) he's with his daughter. He doesn't seem to be going crazy over this. I guess it's the way he keeps things in perspective that helps.

tommywife:<p> I have one question for you about your mother, if I may. You implied she was lied to about being sterilized...did I hear that right? You mean that she had surgery but the doctor didn't do the surgery...the dostor/hospital lied to her? Help me undestand how this could possibly be. Sounds really scary. Also sounds like lawsuit territory.<p>> For one thing, if you aren't sterile, even if you use some form of birth control, accidents happen!! <p> I wouldn't even think about sex outside marriage if both partners were fertile...no way, no how. I agree completely with you. <p>> If your wife doesn't approve or agree with you on this, you may end up divorced anyway...<p> This is the problem. And I agree that she divorcing me is a risk or infidelity. But, divorce is a guarantee of divorce, right? So why not try the less harmful/less riskly alternative first? In any case, I would not being divorcing her, she would be divorcing me. This is an important distinction to me.<p>>If you can live with that, that's up to you. If not, then masturbate, masturbate, masturbate!! <p> This doesn't work for me. I need a woman. For some people with very limited needs or for me for a very short time, this might work, but it won't work for me over the long haul. We are talking about the rest of my life here. <p>I couldn't tolerate the terrible sexual frustration/discomfort of being single so I got married. Your friend obviously has differt sexual needs than I, good for him. And, he isn't married...that's different too. I'll betcha he would feel differently if he lived with the love of his life and couldn't touch her.<p><br>

Your wife is the love of your life. What other choice do you have than to live with it. If you divorce her...what misery and regrets. Life with someone new would only be tainted with memories of the love of your life. You're certain she wont divorce you so what else do you expect Christians on a Christian forum to offer you? If you think this is persecution then what would life without her be? Sometimes the cure for something is worse than the problem. But you and only you can choose which is best. Masturbation is out because you need a real woman, well with real women come real problems. You would be doubling your pain. A divorce? Maybe....but not the love of your life!!!!

Dear: hopeful2, <p>> Your wife is the love of your life. What other choice do you have than to live with it.<p> But I can't live with it...I was not given the gift of celibacy. I have tried real hard to suppress it, but I can't. Forced celibacy just isn't an option for me.<p>>If you divorce her...what misery and regrets. <p> Definitely! That's why divorce is absolutely on the bottom of my list. It would be great tragedy.<p>> Life with someone new would only be tainted with memories of the love of your life. <br> I agree...I do not want another spouse. <p>..> You're certain she wont divorce you so what else do you expect Christians on a Christian forum to offer you? <p>Since all the answers I could come up with were either hopelessly ineffective or tragically sinful, I was hoping for another angle and/or suggestion that I hadn't thought of. Most of the friends, therapists, and doctors I've seen all suggest extramartial sex as the only effective workable solution. But since most of them weren't Christians I was hoping that this forum would have a better answer. Apparantly not. <p>> If you think this is persecution then what would life without her be?<br> <br>Sexually and physically, it would be wonderful and a great relief. Emotionally it would be terrible. I see no solution here that doesn't meltdown a major area of my life...its just a matter of which pain I can more readily live with I guess.<p>> A divorce? Maybe....but not the love of your life!!!!<p> Agreed. <p> <p>

God bless you both. My prayers are withyou.

As I'm sure you are well aware, this is a tough question and will not have an easy answer. I am in a similar situation, albeit, not for as long, nor without the total lack of hope that you suggest exists in your case.<p>In a tough circumstance, we as Christians are always tempted, and often succumb to using the crutches that the world, or the society at large presents us with. I humbly submit that these are usually lacking. What is required as a christian is heroic faith, coupled with "thinking outside of the envelope" that the world presents to us.<p>In scripture, we are told that we will never be tested beyond our ability to endure, and that all things work to good for those who are called. Although these are usually presented as words of comfort, here I believe these promises are a calling to radical day-to-day courage.<p>I admit that in our situation, I can't see how God could work this situation to "good" in our lives. It's beyound my knowledge or comprehension, but then again so is the mechanics of the stars in the heavens. I know that it's difficult, but I also know that He can't work good out of my violating his commands, as would be required in both divorce or infidelity, no matter how limited or structured.<p>Where does that leave us? Can I say that I can go on indefinately, especially without the gift of celibacy, as you say? Certainly not! That would be the height of presumption. But what I can say is that, with faith and trust that the Lord, no matter how distant he seems to be, will give me the grace to make it through this moment, this hour, this day.<p>God has not granted either of us a miraculous cure to our situation, He may not ever, He may tonight. Both this, and the choices that our wives make are completly out of our control. I firmly believe that our Savior Must be allowing this situation for some good reason, even if I can't see it right now.<p>One place that I believe we all struggle with is in trusting God, that he knows what He's doing in allowing us to go through someting like this. I've come to the realization that, without total acceptance of where we are now, we haven't learned the lessons of trust/faith that He may have blessed us with this problem for. This is not the same as being resigned to just suffering through. We must keep our hope alive that this will somehow work to His glory. In your posts, I saw no evidence that you've accepted where you are at this moment. WE can do this without accepting that it will remain this way. We can continue to work and pray and hope for change, while accepting,in total trust, that this is His will for us - just for now.<p>Is this a comfotable place to be? NOT! --<br>But it does afford us the opportunity to grow spiritually, whereas "chomping at the bit" and saying that "We just can't do this!" affords us none.<p>I'm sorry that I don't have any easy answers, but I hope that I have helped in some way. I'll keep praying for you, because I know how heartbreaking this can be. Hang in there, one moment at a time.<p>Alan<br>

Hi everyone,<br>I have not responded in a while but I felt like I had to ask "WHAT IN THE WORLD does that mean (no sexual drive total and permanent)" Sorry I just don't understand TOTAL AND PERMANENT. Perhaps this is what my husband has been trying to tell me and I still don't understand.<br>KLAMB9 - even though I have no answers because I have no answers for even myself it looks like to me(via your post on 1-20-99 at 10:00PM) that your and (if I might add) your wife's problems are that you married her for 80% a sexual partner & she married you for someone to take care of her, like a buddy system for her. Under those circumstances what did you expect? If you both didn't know that at the time, what did you know? lIKE, were you lovers before marriage? If your religion prevented that, and I understand, at least did you wanna?<br> Here's is what I am thinking about all of our situations of the 'low or no' libido spouses. So here we are, and boy do they have not a clue as to the warmth they are missing. My husband used to call me his Gidget because I was so crazy about him, the over-all mechanisim of the relationship is kept fun and exciting by the glue that a close physical relationship enhances. Now for whatever reason that the physical side has ceased, that Gidgetness is buried. He wants to smooch, cuddle, and sleep close. Hey, fine with me it's cold at night. I really just consider it his loss. His loss. His loss. I say 'for whatever reason' his libido is no show--because WHO KNOWS?!!! <br>And apparently he doesn't really care. We have been to the couselors also. Nothing works so we have a mediocre buddy relationship. ho-hum.. <p>DIDI <br>PS. Anyway I know this sounds negative, sorry. And by the way, I love him anyways

didi wrote:<p>> Sorry I just don't understand TOTAL AND PERMANENT. <p> I don't know about your husband, but in wife's case the sexual desire, sensitivity, and arousal problems have a strong physical component. Her puberty was really messed up and it seems that she almost immediately went from a fizzled puberty into menopause while still a teen. She never developed sexually. The severe sexual disability was compounded by all the terrible emotional problems that come with being completely unable to experience anything erotic and unable to express any sexuality. My wife constantly suffers from a sense of being a terribly inadequate wife.<p>This can happen in men, although much less commonly. You should definitely have your husband's testosterone tested.<p>For years and years we were told by doctors that sex problems are relationship problems and emotional in nature. It wasn't until her mid thirties that tests confirmed my years of suspicions...I just knew that my wife's asexuality was so abnormal that something had to be very very wrong. <p>We have tried every therapy including many hormonal treatments which were unsuccessful. The doctors say it is just too late to begin the sexual development process. They say they have done everything possible and that, absent a miracle, that she will never experience anything remotely resembling a normal sex life. She is OK with this...she doesn't miss something she never had. The problem then rests on my shoulders. What do I do? I am an intensely sexual person. I believed that sex outside of marriage was wrong. I got married, but unknowingly married a life-long asexual. I am serious when I say that discovering your spouse is a homosexual would not be as bad a relevation than to discover they are asexual. <p>Now what? is the question I keep asking my spouse, doctors, and pastor. As I've said, sanctioned extramarital sex seems to be the overwhemling suggestion if we want to stay together in an asexual way. A few have suggested that a quick divorce is the obvious answer. The official word from my church is "we have no answer for you".<br> <br>I still agree that most problems like this are emotional but I STRONGLY recommend that physical problems be ruled out first. In my experience, if the sexual equipment is broken, no amount of therapy or relationship enrichment will be enough to compensate. <p>>...you married her for 80% a sexual partner & she married you for someone to take care of her, like a buddy system for her. Under those circumstances what did you expect? <p>I did know these facts until afer I married. Frankly, I expected sex to break out all over on our honeymoon night. Hey, I was a teenager...I was very naive.<br> <br>>If you both didn't know that at the time, what did you know? <p> Sexually, nothing. I did not even know that my wife was asexual. I knew she had serious 'female problems', but I had no idea whatsoever that it would affect our sex life. I would not have even known what questions to ask. I was very naive.<p>>were you lovers before marriage? <p> Hardly.<p>> If your religion prevented that, and I understand, at least did you wanna?<p> I was on fire sexually. My parents, church, and girlfriend all said I had to be married first. So, I married her! Boy was I surprized. Turns out that what was meant was that IF you are to have sex, you must be married. No one told me that getting married doesn't necessarily mean you will have a sex life. Again, I acknowledge, I was very naive. I just assumed that a married couple would mutally expect to have a sex life together. Turns out I was very very wrong.<p><br>

Alan,<br>What you said was very beautiful and so very true. If we pray to the Lord to help us, we have to wait on Him to answer..it may not be today or tomorrow, but He will answer. sometimes we are not prepared for what His answer may be for us. I was in a situation that I thought was hopeless but I kept praying and the Lord did answer my prayers. It was almost unbelievable, but I was happy, but did I look back with regret at what I left behind? Yes I did and still do from time to time, but I am happy and find that there are problems with my new found happiness...so I guess sometimes there are trade-offs in life. We do have the free will to choose, even though it seems like our destiny to be unhappy or sad. Pray without ceasing is the only answer to this problem. Like it or not.

an idea...<p>don't know which end of the christian spectrum you belong to, but maybe this would be a possibility: anull the marriage within the laws of the church.<p>There is clear evidence that one of the partners has not held up their end of the marriage contract before god (be it willingly or unwillingly).<p>J