Hello all,<BR>I recently in this last month (Jan 10)to be exact, have come to need some support.<BR>Hers's a brief descipt of how I got here.<BR>I met him as a freshman in high school, head over heels, all those good things. We married when I was 16 due to my inability to stand my moms alcoholism any more. He was a safe harbor. Baby #1 within a week of our first anniversary. We began to go to church, and commited ourselves, at least he did, I kinda rebeled, didnt need to be "saved." After a couple years he joined the military and went to Korea, against pastors advice, but hey! we can serve God anywhere. Wrong. We moved around, and lost track. After eight years of marraige (with 3 kids)we found ourselves in far from home and far from God. I was lonely, and he was gone alot, but he was devoted to me and my indifference. It never occured to me, being naive, that he would remember how casually I could use the words Forget it! I want a divorce whenever I didn't get my way. I started drinking. A close friend of his became a family friend, and I got too close. He was aware, and insecure enough to the point that he said Fine! Go for it. (He was soon to be deployed for 3 months). So I did, and he knew. He tried hard to reconcile while he was gone, but I was indifferent, I had my cake and was eating it too. So he came home, and we agreed to move on. Only he couldn't. He put me through nursing school, bought us a house, a new car and decided to leave the military to pursue school himself, which he is doing now, since Sep. Last Dec. we fought abit, and he showed a side I never knew, full of anger and hatred. Said he thought about joining the Army again just to get away. Then with the holidays around, and family present, I became very depressed. After a few days we talked, and i thought that we were past this. But when family left, so did our communication. A week later, he told me. No choices just a decision. Lots of cruel things said that were held in too long from him. I begged, pleaded, and appealed to every avenue I could. Then depression and thoughts of giving up sank in.In my lowest moment a friend called out of the blue and I told her, and she told me that God loves me, and all these wonderful things. I asked for forgiveness, and strength. It came. Then I found out about the OW. I told him I forgive him, but he says I dont need your forgiveness, because I havent been physical and thats all you need to know. I found the papers on the kitchen table, already signed. <BR>I pray for him, and know that only God can heal this marraige. Ive asked him to come to church with us, but says he will in his owm time after I sign the papers. I agreed to sign only make things easier, as it has been done in his heart already. I've asked him to stay here while in school to finish so that he may have a career w/o the military and sep. from the kids. He agreed, to function as "partners" to raise the kids for awhile. The pressure is on for me to sign, oh! it's hard. I do have faith that God has a plan for me, and my marraige, and that only through Him , if it is His will, will my marraige be redeemed. Yet, signing these papers almost feel like giving up. My husband says that he needs a release from the past, and only after this marraige is over will he accept my apologies and believe me that I do love him. But, he is careful not to give me false hope, he believes whatever happens, happens.<BR>Thank you for hearing me. I would appreciate any input, as I feel so torn!<P> <P>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited February 05, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited February 05, 2001).]

I often tell husbands to cooperate when their wives veer toward divorce ... that wives' intentions are not to be thwarted. <P>But the power dynamic in marriage is not equal. I say take the papers and a pen and your husband and go to a dinner someplace quiet and out of the way, invite him to explain why he wants you to sign, and hear him out without any lovebusters. Then tell him you cannot agree yet and why, hitting him with everything you have available in the way of emotions. <P>Then call the Harleys together or get into PAIRS, Retrouvaille, Marriage Encounter, or some other program to help straighten things out. I think <I>you</I> are in a position to beat this.

Thank you for responding. I have already agreed to sign , only because he told me it was the only way to show him I love him, and he WILL do this, that it could be hard. He threatens every time i try to ask him to reconsider. So for a peaceful state, I agreed to sign and he agrees to stick around for awhile. He can finish school, cont to offer fin support, be a full time dad, and I can cont to work w/o a babysitter. Plus we can postpone the enevitable hurt to the kids as long as possible. (We've decided not to tell them or anyone else for that manner.)<BR>He says it's already been done in his heart, that papers signed or not changes nothing.<BR>Thanks!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited February 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He says it's already been done in his heart, that papers signed or not changes nothing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perfect. Then signs of hurry on his part are logically inconsistent with the belief he stated. You can and should <I>call him</I> on this. Men can't hit women with logic, but women can sure use it on men--and there should be nary a squeak of protest.<P>Sheherazade was able to delay her fate for a thousand and one nights by giving the King what he wanted.<P>If you can't do that and he threatens, tell him he's going to have to to file without your signature. Tell him you show <I>your</I> love by <I>not cooperating</I> in a program to shatter its ultimate expression, your marriage--which may be badly in need of attention, but not euthanasia.<P>Women have always been entitled to change their minds in matters of the heart.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 05, 2001).]

Thank You for your wise words.<P>I have given him my word. <BR>And he has given me his word that if I cooperate he will make it easier for us. <BR>I'm afraid of going back on my word that he will get up and run out. Is it possible to accomplish both? I have my children in mind, and the fact that I have no support system here if he leaves.<BR>Keep it coming!! I have had no other perspectives on this issue and am unsure.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited February 05, 2001).]

He's probably still having that Emotional Affair--if you're lucky the Other Woman has demanded he get the papers from you before he can sleep with her, so it still hasn't happened. If it has happened, Plan A is still the right answer.<P>So any excuse that delays that for <I>any</I> supportable reason (not obstreprerousness) helps give you time to run your Plan A. And if you're crafty, you can figure out ways to delay signing without lovebusting too much.<P>Go to McDonalds. Throw the papers away. Come home and apologize all over the place, saying it was a weak moment. He'll have to get another set.<P>Meanwhile, you get that affair further out in the open. If you can bring him to talk with you about it, you tell him that as long as it goes on the kids are likely to pick up on it if only subconsciously. So you get his word to stay away from and out of touch with her while you finish up things. With any luck, she won't want to wait, and won't tell him that--she'll just move on and at some point he'll find out. <P>If he's trying to straddle two relationships, it should be easy to keep him off-balance, and ultimately cause him to tip back toward you--the key is avoiding lovebusteres, and out-strategize him with a series of moves that gradually cause him to corner himself--with little grounds to blame you.<P>Good luck. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>My husband says that he needs a release from the past, and only after this marraige is over will he accept my apologies and believe me that I do love him. But, he is careful not to give me false hope, he believes whatever happens, happens.<P>I have already agreed to sign , only because he told me it was the only way to show him I love him, and he WILL do this, that it could be hard. He threatens every time i try to ask him to reconsider.<P>I have given him my word. And he has given me his word that if I cooperate he will make it easier for us. <BR>I'm afraid of going back on my word that he will get up and run out.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let’s see. Your husband will go to church <I>if</I> you sign the papers. Your husband will “stick around for a while” and “make it easier” for you <I>if</I> you sign the papers. Your husband will accept your apologies <I>if</I> you sign the papers. Your husband will believe that you love him <I>if</I> you sign the papers. Your husband will leave and make it “hard” for you <I>if</I> you <I>don’t</I> sign the papers.<P>I’m afraid your husband’s word isn’t worth spit. It sounds to me like he’s just saying anything and everything he can to manipulate you into signing those papers. Once you sign those papers, you lose <I>all</I> your bargaining power. It sounds like right now you have <I>some</I> bargaining power, at least, or your husband would have just acted unilaterally. <P>But you’re using your bargaining power poorly. Asking him to reconsider will get you nowhere.<P>You could try telling him that while <I>he</I> may need a release from the past, <I>you</I> need one too. Tell him what <I>you</I> need for that release. I imagine it would involve being convinced that reconciliation is impossible, probably by going through some kind of counseling. He gets to explain to the counselor why your marriage is doomed, and the counselor can then explain it to you. Of course, you might not “get it” right off, so several sessions would be in order.<P>Meanwhile, you can work on Plan A. And whatever you do, <I>don’t</I> get defensive or accusatory.<BR>

Yes Gnome!!!!<BR>you've got it. This is my bargaining power, and with all the threats i have recieved I am trying yet still to have faith in his word. So, my question to you is, if I am using my advantage poorly, why not then just sign? Whats the point of not signing to go to counseling, to hear it from a third party that this will not work? He feels that he has given all his life, and now is finally thinking for himself. I wouldn't disagree. I dont know of a man with more integrity and generosity to give. But I have done alot of taking. Isn't it funny how sometimes it can take a tragedy to become "self-aware?"

Gnome!<BR>Did I misinterpret the reason behind counseling? After rereading, it seems there was something else to it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>So, my question to you is, if I am using my advantage poorly, why not then just sign? Whats the point of not signing to go to counseling, to hear it from a third party that this will not work?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The point is, the third party (if at all pro-marriage) is unlikely to conclude that your marriage can't work. If you can demonstrate a willingness and ability to listen, change, and meet your husband's needs, then there is no reason to believe that your marriage is doomed.<P>You're forgetting your <I>other</I> bargaining chip, the one your husband has apparently forgotten about, but which a neutral third party will definitely keep in mind...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>He feels that he has given all his life, and now is finally thinking for himself. I wouldn't disagree. I dont know of a man with more integrity and generosity to give. But I have done alot of taking.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your other bargaining chip is your children. If your husband truly has integrity, then he will want to do what's best for the children. Your job is to make this as painless for him as possible, until your involvement becomes an asset in your husband's eyes instead of a liability. <I>This</I> is the perspective a good counselor is likely to have, and if you go in to counseling with a humble attitude, your husband is going to have a hard time making a convincing case.<P>

Learning as I go,<P>I have read this thread with interest. I do think you do have some bargining chips. I suspect that much of your H's thinking is clouded by what is termed the "fog" right now. The OW was/is intoxicating to him. She has probably treated him well. She offers the promise of someone that can give to him. She probably appreciates what he can do for her.<P>I suspect a lot of what I have said about her he cannot say about you. At least not to this point. You two have been married a long time, but from your description he has mostly been alone even when you were present. I suspect he gave and gave do to poor self-esteem and has finally reached a point where the anger and neglect have gotten to him. <P>Now that he wants to leave you want him. Why? As you say you want him for the support of the children and yourself.<P>So those barginning chips are mostly about guilt right now. His guilt. As 'de Plume' says you do have the children, and you do have his guilt to use as a barginning chip.<P>However, they won't work unless he has something to gain from this. What is that? Can you tell him what he will gain by staying married? Can you tell what he "may" gain if he stays with you?<P>Yes, I know he made a vow. You two have children and they are strong cards. But none of this is going to work unless there is ultimately something else.<P>So I would recommend that you really examine Plan A and put it into place. I don't know how long it takes for a divorce to become official in your state. I don't know if you two could change things if you do sign. But if you are going to bargin, please have a plan in place or it will be more of the same and he will be gone.<P>I suspect, that if you could get him into counseling and he opens up, you would be horrified at the anger, and pain that is within him. I doubt that you have a clue as to what you have done. But if the anger can be let out, and there are changes in how you view this marriage, then there is definitely hope.<P>It will be a tough road. Yes, he has divorced you in his mind; he had to in order to have the affair. But he can reengage with you if you can meet his needs. It will be tough, but you can do it.<P>So I don't know what to offer you in the way of advice in the short term. There is little time for a Plan A to take affect. Perhaps as others have said if you can delay just a bit, you might have a chance. Otherwise, you may have to rely on the fact that he will remain after the divorce and you will then have time to show him what he will be missing if he leaves.<P>Sometimes, it takes a separation or a divorce to clear the air of many things. This is not the recommended way to rebuild a marriage, but if the damage has been big, and over a long time, it may be the only way.<P>Could you answer some questions? How long have you been married? How old are the children? And how long did the affair (s?) last? It may give us a bit more to work with.<P>I am sorry I cannot help you more.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thank you Just Learning. I was wondering how well I could possibly sum up 12 years of marraige (next week!) in a letter to anyone. Apparently it worked because you seem to say many things which are perceptive!!<P>Three children, ages 11, 8 and 4. We adore them. They are worried evn tho they dont know just because of the atmosphere here last month. <P>Since D-day I have tried so hard to let him know where I am at with this, how I love him, and am trying to find some reason for my indifference all these years.<P>My main conclusion is that to be be emotionally distant is the way most dependents function with parents who have addictions. Easy way to avoid hurt, and when learned young enough, as in my case, sets a permanent path for life.<P>Prior to last week, every time I tried to get close he became angry, and felt pressured. This past week however there have been many very fundamental changes in my life which I attribute to the Lord, such as throwing out my wine, and a few other reminders of my shamefull past.<P>Yes, I am sure that the OW made him feel wonderful- he is wonderful. Anyone could have done the same in his shoes. But call me naive- I do believe him when he said he didnt become physical.<P>I've been reading these issues of "love banking" and really have learned alot. Amazing to look at it that way-deposit and withdraw..I've been in the red many years.<P>He responded to my I love you twice today.<BR>I remembered what it felt like to be young and in love. I want to just show him in many ways how I feel and the growth that I am experiencing. No more manipulating.<P>That is why I need to be very careful of my choices, and although taking the papers to McDonalds and trashing sounds great, it will only make him angry and be percieved as being manipulative. <P>Just Learning thank you..and everyone keep it coming. I have gained so much just from reading these post's. As low as I have felt..I am not alone.<BR>

The affair he states is over, (EA), he realized how childish it was. Not sure how long, he met her in Biology which is now in its second semester. Very hard for me, because he still see's her everyday.<P>The key point you made that I facing Just Learning, is that yes the damage was big and over a long time.. He said himself he needs this release for his own peace of mind and to finally accomplish something. (self-esteem issue definitly).<P>It is hard to take that chance, even though I see his point.<P>I do love him....<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited February 06, 2001).]

LAIG,<P>You keep mentioning that his affair might not have become physical. Is that important to you? Why? You apparently had more than one affair that was physical.<P>I am asking you this question for a reason.<P>You said that your H has said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> He said himself he needs this release for his own peace of mind and to finally accomplish something. (self-esteem issue definitly). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, if he feels this way, then perhaps Sis' approach has possibilities. You see if you were to sit down with him and have him tell you what he feels about himself, about your affairs, about his future, maybe you and your H can find a way short of divorce that can give him peace of mind, self-esteem, and accomplish something meaningful to him.<P>I will say this; in my book the fact that he stayed with you and put you through school, suggest he is a very strong man. A man that loved you very much.<P>But LAIG, I suspect something else has happened, and that his love for you has been buried deep under all of the pain, anger, guilt that he feels. See if you can get him to talk with about it. <P>But here you must be very careful. If you ask him a question or you get him to talking, don't interrupt, don't defend yourself, just say nothing at all and listen to him. I mean really listen. It may be the hardest thing you have ever done, but if you do it, you might give him hope of acheiving his goals within the marriage to you.<P>You must be willing to work with him, not judge him, and love him, but it is possible that he needs to see something in you that he cannot see now. If he sees it, it may give him hope. <P>He has come a long way with you. He has suffered a lot, it would be ashame to have come all this way in hopes that one day his W would love him and give up just short of the reality that she may finally do so. <P>You say that you do, but I doubt that he believes it. I suspect he feels you just want him around because it is convenient.<P>You have much to deal with.<P>You also said that <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The key point you made that I facing Just Learning, is that yes the damage was big and over a long time.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Can you elaborate more on the damage and the time frame. The more we know the more likely that someone here who has been in the same situation, might be able to offer some excellent advice.<P>Finally, it seems to me that your H is right. He needs a release from all of the pain, the anger, the bad memories. He sees only one way to acheive this,divorce. Frankly, I can see how he would feel this way. But there are other ways. And here is where you could apply some logic to this.<P>While he won't hurt from the divorce, he is ready, the children will and so will you (but you hurting is part of the reason for the divorce).<P>If you two were to get back together, it will take counseling to address all of the issues and it will take time.<P>If he wants to start a new life with a different woman, he must get rid of the baggage that was developed in this marriage (you know about baggage being brought into a marriage don't you LAIG?) and that will take counseling and at least a year or two to get it together.<P>He will also need to finish school before getting into a serious relationship and that will take years.<P>So in a way there is no rush. No matter what he choses, it will take time before he is ready for a new relationship. So why not see if this one can be healed.<P>So if I were argueing your case I would offer the following:<P>1. I will divorce you if you want, but you will need counseling after all of the damage I have done to you. It will take years.<P>2. I am going to seek counseling to make myself a better woman than I have been. I now realize what I have done and have some idea why I was the way I was. I don't want to be that way again whether I am married to you or not.<P>3. Since you are looking at a two?? year time line to recover from what I have done to you and you are looking at a similar time to finish school, I would like to suggest that we try to meet your objectives while married. The marriage may be saved, the children would be happier, I would be delirious, and if it is saved you would find it in your heart to love me.<P>4. If it doesn't work, you will be healed and I would have been given the opportunity to help you heal. You will have your education finished. You will be ready to meet who ever you meet.<P><BR>H you loved me when I was unlovable. You have helped me in so many ways. Please let me help you heal from what I have done. I am growing and learning and I am changing. You worked so hard to get to this point. Now you are here and I am here, but the cost to you has been high maybe we can get where we both want to be and save our family and children.<P>I would say this to him in a very logical, and cool manner. This is not really a time for emotion but "logic". This needs to be a win-win situation. He heals, he deals with the damage and the baggage. You get time to heal the marriage. You get the chance to be what you should have always been, his W.<P>It may not work, but LAIG there is more than one way to address what he wants to address, beside divorce. However, be aware that the presence of the OW will still be around even if the EA is over.<P>If you have a counselor, a minister, us them or even use the counseling here. It is quite good I hear.<P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: It sounds to me like it would be a very good idea if you got away from the wine and any othe alcohol. You post suggests that you don't improve while drinking and you need to be at your best from now on. For you, for your marriage, and for your children.<BR>

Wow!<P>Do you charge for these sessions Just Learning? I feel as if I have just sat down and spoken with you for hours.<P>A couple of questions/comments.<P>First of all your plan the way I see it addresses many fundamental issues:<BR>Aknowledging the pain and its cause (me).<BR>The need for outside help<BR>And most importantly expressing my hope and love w/o pressure or expectations.<P>However, he does not believe in counseling.<P>The issue of my affair:<BR>He knows the details..That during an extended absence this person kinda stepped in and took his place. I dont want to divulge more being this is the internet!<BR>But you being as perceptive as you are I am certain you will understand.<BR>And, by the grace of God I have been delivered from drinking, completely.<BR>Thank you..I realize that you put a great deal of time into these replies and I both appreciate and value your advice.<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited February 06, 2001).]

LAIG,<P>Please tell your H that he doesn't have to "believe" in counseling. It is not a religous experience where "belief" is required. You simply try it and see if it helps. I do understand however, that having been in the military and to this day in many jobs having had counseling is not good. So make sure it is a marriage counselor.<P>I guess I will use my imagination, but am I to understand that the affair only lasted the 3 months he was gone? Is it the only affair you had? Is the rest of the damage do to your attitude about your H? These are the things we would need to know.<P>God Bless,<P>JL