OK, I know I am taking a risk of being flamed right now but I'm bringing this up again anyway.<P>After much deliberation, I have decided to venture out in the dating world again. For those who don't know me, I am divorced. I have been divorced almost a year and I did date shortly after my divorce to a guy for about 6 months. We broke up in Nov. I was by myself after that and have finally become comfortable being on my own. I enjoy that now. I don't feel I am desperate anymore for a man but would like to date again. My therapy group also believes that I am ready to date as long as I just take it slow and make clear what my boundaries are from the very beginning.<P>My question has to do with dating in this day and age. Is it wrong to expect men to pick you up for dates, open doors, pay for dinner, call you vs. you calling them, etc. That is how it was when I dated 18 years ago. Now, it seems that anything goes and I should be willing to pay half, drive myself, etc. Is that about right? <P>I also know that we must be very careful regarding sex these days. Obviously for physical reasons but also for emotional and spiritual reasons as well. That I do know.<P>So,who is game to talk about this very controversial subject again?

711,<P>Well, as an independent consultant, between jobs, but also as one with some money, i offer to pay for the first date,<BR>no matter what, after that, we can trade, but it depends upon the economic status of the date. If the date is an economic equal, i tend to want to split it. I have a lunch date Friday with a potential date, but we have split the bill when in a group, so good question.<P>since i am in the same place as you,<BR>how would you feel about holding hands with a date? How comfortable would you be with that, or how soon? or what does it mean to you?<P>If a guy you liked but don't know very well grabbed your hand would you let go or hold on? would this indicate physical interest?<P>sportsguy<p>[This message has been edited by sportsguy (edited February 06, 2001).]

I don't know why dating should be so contraversial. It's not a major sin to go out with someone if you want to. If you are ready than do it...some people will say no...no...you must wait a year. Who says? If you want to wait a year or ten years that's up to you. <P>I would imagine dating now is a lot different than when you were doing it 18 years ago. I would imagine that the silly games we played in high school and as young adults wouldn't be a factor at this stage of the game. If it still is I may join a convent.

Sportsguy:<P>Interesting question about holding hands. My x loved to hold hands and I was never that comfortable with it. But, my feelings for him were never what they should have been (but that's a whole another story). I have never been real comfortable with public displays of affection. Of course, holding hands is pretty innocent. But, it is a display of affection. So, if I guy tries to hold my hand on the first date, that would make me uncomfortable. I might hold on for a minute or two but would probably try to let go shortly thereafter. I'm not sure how I would feel about it later on. I think it depends on how much we like each other. <P>Lonely Soul:<P>In the past, the topic of dating has been very controversial. Everyone looks at it so differently. I agree that we all just need to respect everyone's opinions on it. <P>As to dating, you are right that we are no longer kids in highschool so maybe there aren't any rules anymore. Because I have always been so legalistic, I assumed there were probably some rules and guidelines out there even for us adults. If there are, I just want to know. If there aren't, so much the better. Than I can just do what I feel comfortable with along the way.

711, <P>You are right, this can be a difficult subject, but this board is the right place to ask these questions. <P>I think we all have an inner voice that tells us what is right in these situations or not. If physical affection is not comfotable, then don't do it!! I do not think any man should be offended by this, especially if it is a first date. <P>Dating is a time to reintroduce yourself into the single world. It can be a time of growth, and coming to grips with some of our fears. For many of us, we haven't dated in a VERY long time. Just take it slow, and do what you know is right!<BR><P>------------------<BR>Susan

of course, you know I couldn't resist this topic.<P>I don't believe the issue of date/not date has been the controversial issue. I think all of us have been in agreement that most people desire an intimate (ie romantic) connection with another person at some point in their lives.<P>What has been debated are the merits of waiting vs. not waiting---for the divorce to be final, for a year or more afterwards, for "never"--depending on the person. Also, that the person understand what their own intentions are before affecting another individual.<P>711,<BR>I think you should have sex on the first date with a guy if you like him. What the heck? It feels good, and it gets all that tension out of the way so that you can enjoy subsequent dates. That way, you won't feel guilty when he pays for everything, and he won't feel used either. You can size up his....attributes...and you won't wonder if you are wasting your time with someone you won't be sexually compatible with down the road.<P>Actually, you know I'm being sarcastic (or am I?). I really don't have the answers for you, but my statement above is more-or-less how it works with my twenty-something co-workers. Usually they are having sex within the first month and the girl pays half. If a kiss is not exchanged in the first date, then the girl is not interested. The guy might try for a second date, but will begin to wonder after that if nothing physical has happened. The guy almost always pays for the first date.

TS:<P>Yes, I knew you couldn't resist this one. I have been waiting for your response.<P>So, nowadays, you think sex is the indicator of whether someone likes you or not and whether they pay for dinners, etc. I think that may apply to alot of men but certainly not all. I am looking for the few good men that are still out there who do respect women and boundaries, etc. I know they exist. How do you find them and keep them (with or without sex)?

I have been dating and have been asked out by other men at the same time. I have turned them down but have been told by others that I shouldn't just date one person. I need to keep my options open. How do you date more than one person at a time?

Maybe I'm paranoid. Maybe I'm old fashioned. Maybe I'm just plain weird. That's the more likely case.<P>Anyway, I grew up as the daughter of a medical social worker at a public hospital so I heard lots of sad and bizarre stories. <P>Therefore, I can't think of any man who needs to know where I live for several dates. After all I married a man who was Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. So, how much do I expect to really know about any man the first few times we meet?<P>This means I don't want him to pick me up or take me home until I know more about him. And, having a friend whose husband died of AIDS and she didn't find out until he was seriously advanced enough in his disease because he didn't tell her, I certainly don't want to have sex with him for a LONG time. I don't even want to kiss him for a date or two.<P>Maybe that has to do with something I heard on the radio one time. Some author was talking and it was this person's opinion was that kissing was to them one of the most intimate forms of contact in breath is mandatory for life and the act of kissing, especially prolonged kissing, almost becomes the exchange of breath. (It just sounded so.....romantic and idealistic.) <P>Anyway, I'm really having a struggle with my boundaries. With my ideals. And with the annoying conflict between my body and my brain.<P>I have more questions than answers. Sigh.

I have an idea; since so many don't have a clue what to do...if you have dating teens ask them.<P>If you like someone then you want to spend time with them. That is normal and natural. If someone makes your skin crawl, don't go out with them. If you just want to get out of the house among the living, go out in a group or with friends. <P>You are an adult; hopefully you are more sure of yourself now than you were at 16. If you don't want to hold the others person's hand don't. If you do, then do so. <P>Casual dating is just that casual. Don't make yourself crazy over it.<BR>

711.<P>They are out there. Sex should not be required on the first date, second, third, or forth. It will require alot more dialog which is a good thing anyway.<P>If a guy calls and gets your answering machine and leaves his number to call back. Call him back. If on some evening you just want to talk, Call him. Communicate, communicate, communicate. Talk for hours if you want too. Have fun, get to know him. <P>Now as far a paying goes. Guys should pay. unless he tells you he's broke and can't. Understand that in my book, if he tells you he can't afford it (and he's a good man) it takes one h*&l of alot of courage to make a statement like that, and it shows that he trusts you. I repeat here he must be a good man!!! not a loser. You will know.. He should open doors without question and without hesitation. If you want to go out and you ask him if he wants to go, you should make the effort to pay. Now if he is a good man, he will probably want to pay anyway.. I would feel wierd if a lady payed for more than a drink or two. But thats just me. <P>I do kinda agree with the post about seeing other people.. KINDA. Its really up to you and your boundries, which is a VERY GOOD idea.<P>Have fun. <P>Tex..

Although I have been laying low, I have still been lurking and when I read the word “controversy” I couldn’t resist <P>Seriously though, dating is a good thing and should be enjoyed once you are ready. I’m pretty sure that some things have changed in the past 18 years, but some remain the same. Some of the areas you mentioned (opening doors, paying for the meal, making phone calls) all pertain to common courtesy IMO. I don’t mind paying for dates, taking turns or splitting the bill. I have always just thought it to be understood though that the one who makes the plans is also the one who reaches for the check, but that is just a generalization. As far as doors being opened, out of courtesy and politeness, I will generally open doors when appropriate. (My mamma didn’t raise a pig!) I find it very nice for my date to reach over and unlock my door for me from inside the car once she is in, but I don’t second guess it if that doesn’t happen either. Maybe I should?<P><I>**Side note here: there was a movie a while back where a young man was given the advice that if his date did not reach over and unlock his door after he had placed her in the car, that meant she was selfish and was not deserving of a second date. However, if she did reach over for the lock, she was a caring person and he was to take that as a good sign.</I><P>Anyway, back to your question….I don’t think you should spend too much time analyzing what you should do on a date. If you have to worry about what you should/should not be doing, then you will not be relaxed and probably won’t have as much fun. You need to be yourself and find someone who you are comfortable with in doing so. If you don’t do that, then what is the point of being out on the date?<P>If you feel like having sex with someone on your first date, go for it. Just be honest with yourself and know that putting out on the first date probably will not lead to a lasting relationship either. The courting process at that point just turns to sex and it's hard to go back to making the "right" impressions and building that meaningful relationship once that wall has been conquered!<P>Trust me here, I man that wants a relationship with you will be willing to wait on the sex. PERIOD<BR>

Thanks guys for the dating etiquette. I guess that many of the old ways still apply. Good!<P>

also let me say thanks, haven't dated alot in my youth, married too young.<P>Sex at our age, in mid life, is much more natural and easier, etc, because we should be experienced a little from our first marriage, but it is still a sacred boundary over which the relationship will change forever.<P>i think in the movie, "When Harry met Sally," the premise that once a couple has sex, they can never be just friends again. I think that is more true than not.<P>If you are crazy about the guy, spend alot of time with him first to know that he is ok, or even suggest never marrying again, and see what his reaction is. <P>Some of us may not like the idea of marriage ever again, but would love a companion, and maybe on special occasions, sex is ok.<P>women can feel used if they do have it and the situation doesn't work out. if they are ok with that, that's fine, but let the guy know your viewpoint first, POJA, so that if it doesn't, everybody is still ok afterwards.<P>now back to ice hockey!<BR>sportsguy

I appreciate all the advice on sex, but I am not interested in a committed, sexual relationship right now. Been there, done that. This time, I just want to go out and have fun and meet new people. I don't want an exclusive relationship with anyone but I'm not sure how you really do that.<P>Stressedout asked how people date more than one person at a time. I have no idea. I have never done that.<P>The real reason I started this post was to just find out if I had unrealistic expectations about dating because I have gone out on a few dates with a guy I met at church and he doesn't open my door and he always jokes about who is paying the bill. I always offer to split the cost and he always says no. But, I wonder why he keeps bringing this up. He makes a lot more money than I do, so he can definitely afford to pick up the bill. Maybe he is just showing off. He has been divorced for quite some time and has dated quite a few women and likes to talk about that too. So, is this guy just a jerk or insecure or what?

Hi Jen,<P>I agree, this shouldn't be a topic that is for that much debate, but for those who have serious questions and might want others opinions .<P>There is a wide range of opinions here on the board. I'll say that my opinions have changed slightly since I first came, but again, thru experience I learned only by living in that situation myself.<P>The main point I want to make is your title says Casual Dating. There are probably different degrees of opinion on what Casual Dating is. I would say Casual dating is going to dinner and a movie. Maybe you do see other people still at that point, and at that point, sex should not be even an issue or consideration that early. That is something to be shared with someone you care about when you are both ready. In that relation, everyone has a different idea of when that is.<P>But casual dating, I think its not unrealistic to be a hopeless romantic, and want your guy to open a door for you. The paying thing, I only know what I see with my friends and when I was "dating" earlier, and that was usually the person who asked, payed for the whole thing. After that, as you keep dating, its ok for the female to pay her share. Or do something like pay for the movies and ice cream afterwards or something (movies with popcorn and drinks, can be almost expensive where I live!).<P>If it were me, I'd feel uncomfortable if my date grabbed my hand as we were walking. But then again, if there was that instant attraction/chemistry, I can't say that it would bother me as much. (just being honest) <P>When I first found out about the affair, and betrayal/lies etc, I did not date . But once I was served with divorce papers, and my ex called me to listen to him and OW have sex, I felt the marriage was over, so I did date. I wish now that I waited until it was final, but I can't turn back time. In the end, exH proposed to OW and they will marry next year. I met some great guys along the way, and just as many losers! Right now, I am happy right where I'm at for the first time in a long time.<P>Lastly, the first dating experiences after divorce , I thought, were pretty scary. I hadn't dated in 10 years myself, and here I was not knowing what to do either. <P>I think in your heart you should define who you are first. Then what you feel is the definition of casual dating, and what you expect for yourself in the future. Casual dating , can just be companionship and going to some fun events around town .<P>Good luck and go very slow! <BR>Hugs, Dana<BR>

Jen,<P>I didn't see your final comment before I wrote that. Its good you have a clear idea of what you DON"T want here! <P>Only from what you have mentioned about the guy, I myself might wonder about him. Some guys aren't as sensitive or giving as others either though. He may have no clue this bothers you.<P>Hugs, Dana<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> my ex called me to listen to him and OW have sex, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You should have divorced him over that, that is cruel, rub your face in it, $hitty! Oh, get rid of him, FOREVER!<P>dana, you shouldn't have any guilt about dating after crap like that!<P>tom

Dana, OMG!!!! What a COMPLETE [censored]. I can't believe your ex had the nerve to do such a thing.<P>Jen, Go out and have fun. If this guy doesn't open doors and you like that sort of thing, either mention it to him or dump him. And if he keeps bragging of his "past" women, it is probably an insecurity thing going on. You haven't said a lot about this guy, but my gut says to move on

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 711:<BR><B> he always jokes about who is paying the bill. I always offer to split the cost and he always says no. <P> He..... has dated quite a few women and likes to talk about that too. So, is this guy just a jerk or insecure or what?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>711,<P>You just answered your own question. A man usually doesn't want his date to wonder whether or not he is a jerk, so he avoids jerky conduct. One of the rules of getting to know a woman is to get her to talk about herself, and under no circumstances does a man boast of other women he has dated. That is a selfish reaction, I would be totally turned off if I went out on a date and she talked about other men.<P>711, you have a good head on your shoulders, go ahead and trust your instincts. I'll bet my house that you can do a lot better than this.<P>I too am one who can well afford to pick up the check, whether I invite one person or a dozen. I quitely let the waiter know at the time I order that the check is mine. If I'm treating several friends, the check is always settled away from the table. <P>The only time I'll joke about picking up the check is when I take my kids and their families out. Then I'll tell the waiter that he might as well bring me the check because they are going to make me pay for it anyway.<P>But then that is true, the first time my kids took me out to dinner for my birthday, they ran out of money, so the First National Bank of Dad picked up that check too. It just doesn't matter.<P>If you have to ask it this guy is a jerk, it is probably because he is a jerk.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 711:<BR><B> my ex called me to listen to him and OW have sex, </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That one wins a lifetime Gold Membership to the Ancient Order of the Anal Cavity. True, there are a lot of ***holes in this world, but this guy should have a piece of paper to prove it. The OW isn't entirely well either.<P>Bumper<P>Bumper<BR> <P> <P>