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My H told me and the counselor that after a year of coming to see him and hating it, after doing all kinds of things, trying, that there are (as I said) only cosmetic changes. That his feelings haven't changed, they are the same as always. He is afraid I will want to divorce before our S is grown up and that it will hurt him. That he's done all the homework, that we were going to counsel for 6 months - well, it's been a year. That he's never loved me the way a husband should love a wife, nor have I loved him in return. that we have to do what's best for our son, i.e. stay together and parent him.<P>Not surprised, but it still hurts. The easiest thing to do would be to stay in this place, but I will lose my soul if I do. I told him I fell in love with him for his integrity, and that I can't live a lie. I used to brag about how good he was, even to his mother. I can't say those things anymore because it would be expressing beliefs I no longer have. <P>He wants me to at least stay in the house until summer to make things easier for our S. He came up with that immediately, so I know he was prepared for my not accepting the Stay together til he is grown up idea already. <P>I'm feeling nuts. I knew this was coming and I thought I was prepared and I can't stay living like a split person. <P>I guess Plan A didn't work or maybe I didn't do it good enough. It's too late for Plan B. On our son's birthday party my H was doing everything and taking care of everything, thoughtful and caring, and I was hit with the realization that "I no longer love him. Everything is in place, but it has died."<P> I don't know the exact minute or day that it finally did die, but I realized it during the party. <P>I am crying because of the loss of the dream we had. Thank God for the Zoloft. <P>As for the OW, he says the last invitation he had from her or her family was november when the OWH invited my H to a football game with him and their son. He declined that invite. The OWH thinks the friendship between his W and my H is beneficial and benign at least he voiced such 3 years ago. It has in my view destroyed what we had.<P>I told him he is throwing away a perfectly good wife. And the session ended early. I said goodbye to the counselor and we walked out. I couldn't look at my H and walked ahead of him to my car. <P>He's off the hook. He got me to call it quits so he's not the Bad Guy. Passive aggressive. He can say he did everything I asked, but I still divorced him. <P>Now our son, how can I live with myself if I hurt him by breaking up our marriage? And how can I live with myself if I am living a lie? What do I teach him? <P> <BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

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{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Belle}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Belle}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Belle}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Belle}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Belle}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>You know what? There is nothing I can say right now that will take the pain away and make you feel better. What I can say, though, is that you are not alone, and as long as you keep coming back here, you will never be alone. It is AWFUL to have to say this, but we have all been where you are. I remember very clearly thinking, "How am I going to look my kids in the eye and break their hearts?" and it seemed as if my H did not care at all whether he was hurting them. <P>Belle, my honest advice to you would be to cry for a while--or mourn in whatever way is natural for you. Maybe even hold a private "funeral" service for the death of the marriage. One thing I did that was REALLY helpful is that I wrote a goodbye letter--and I wrote all that stuff that you want to say so bad. Some of it was pretty "out there" but that's okay, because it was for my eyes only, and I said what was in my heart. <P>I am so sorry for your loss. For now, mourn, and when the grief subsides a bit, you can get on with your life with the help of your friends. There is a great Jewish custom that after sitting for seven days in a house of mourning, all the close family friends and the rabbi come over and take the family on their first walk. Know why? Because after a big grief like they have just been through, the family needs to know that their friends and community are around them. <P>We are around you, okay? You will be alright.<P><BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Belle}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

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So sorry Bellevue...<P>Mourning is such a sad process - but it is so healing. I'm there now. Hope things are going well for you.<P>I'll remember you in my prayers - [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>------------------<BR>Let go of what you don't want - to get what you do want. <P>Be willing to grow and evolve as long as you live and your life will be blessed.<P>Be a blessing to those whom you touch everyday.

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FaithfulWife:<P>Thank you so much for the cyber-hugs. And for caring. It is like a death. The custom you talked about is beautiful. The 7 day mourning period is called shiva. Are you Jewish? And the official ending of the shiva, I think I may have heard about it somewhere.<P>It's been nearly 2 years since D day and it still hurts. I didn't think I could cry and sob so loudly any more.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited February 10, 2001).]

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seekingjoy:<P>Thank you. It's so hard to let go. I still held a sliver of hope. Now it's dead. I need to think about what to do with my life. I'm sorry for your mourning, too. Saying goodbye to a dream is hard. It helps to count our blessings. Health, children, roof over our heads, food in the cupboards, the MB Boards, etc. And the love of God.<P>

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How does one proper address a goddess? You goddessness? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Anyway, yes, I am Jewish, and we have another mourning ritual that you will find PARTICULARY helpful right now. During the time of mourning all the mirrors are covered with black cloth, because as a grief-stricken person, you do not look your best and you should not be worried with how you appear. As a mourner, your only job is to grieve. BUT, after seven days, the friends and rabbi come over to help you get back on your feet and start living again. <P>One of the things that hit me the hardest was the death of my dreams. I dreamt of being a successful business owner, and within a day, the business and my job--the way I supported myself--were all gone; along with the dreams of some day passing a business on to my kids. I dreamt of being old with someone and feeling snuggly accepted as an old woman. I dreamt of a lot of things that I lost very quickly, and that was VERY painful. <P>I don't know what to say, other than that we are here, and we'll listen to you ramble if you want -or- we'll hug ya while you cry. Didn't think you had anymore tears left, did ya?<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

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Bellevue, I don’t know your story, and I probably shouldn’t say anything, but I’m confused and disturbed. You say you will “lose your soul” if you stay, and that you “can’t live a lie.” <I>What</I> lie would you be living if you stayed? I don’t understand. You <I>did</I> say that you can no longer “brag about how good he was”, but what does that have to do with staying?<P>You say you are “crying because of the loss of the dream”. Well that makes sense, and is appropriate, but you say your realization was that “I no longer love him. Everything is in place, but it has died.” <I>What</I> is the “<I>it</I>” that has died?<P>My suspicion here is that your post is the outpouring of a lot of deep feelings that needed to come out, and so it would be inappropriate for me to demand coherence. God knows that it took <I>me</I> years to recognize and mourn the loss <I>my</I> “dream” or expectation of how life and marriage were “supposed” to be. I hid it all from myself through depression.<P>But the loss of one dream paves the way for the birth of a new one. Your original dream was probably developed unconsciously. Your new dream can be of your own choosing. What do you want to build it on?<P>I am really troubled by a lot of what you are saying in your post. Your painful realization occurred when your husband “was doing everything and taking care of everything, thoughtful and caring.” Doesn’t this seem rather odd? Wouldn’t you expect such a realization to occur when your husband was behaving cruelly or inhumanly?<P>Your husband stuck with the counseling for <I>six months</I> more than he had originally agreed to, and even after getting no substantive results he still wants to stay together. The OW seems to be out of the picture. And yet you say he got <I>you</I> to “call it quits so he’s not the Bad Guy.” Again, I don’t know your story, but something about this just doesn’t add up for me. If the marital counseling wasn’t working, I can understand how your husband could become discouraged with it. What I’m wondering is, <I>why</I> wasn’t it working?<P>Bellevue, you may have finally let go of a fairy-tale dream that was getting in the way, and it may have been both painful and necessary to do so, but <I>what else</I> are you still hanging on to? And <I>why</I> do you say it is “too late for Plan B”?<P>My wife gave up on marriage counseling because it wasn’t working. And she was right. It <I>wasn’t</I> working. Because we both had personal issues that we needed to work through before we could make our <I>relationship</I> work. It sounds to me like that may be where you’re at.<P>Again, all I’m going on is this one post. But nothing in that post leads me to think that there is no hope for your marriage. Rather, it suggests that you and your husband have <I>given up</I> hope for your marriage.<P>And <I>that</I> is a choice.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited February 10, 2001).]

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FaithfulWife:<P>How about "divine one"? Or Betty Crocker? (I love to cook and bake)<BR> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>"Anyway, yes, I am Jewish, and we have another mourning ritual that you will find PARTICULARY helpful right now. During the time of mourning all the mirrors are covered with black cloth, because as a grief-stricken person, you do not look your best and you should not be worried with how you appear. As a mourner, your only job is to grieve." <P>I love that idea, and have heard about it. In an unplanned way I did follow it through the time since D-day: I dressed and fixed myself up without looking in a mirror and avoided checking myself out in store windows. <P>If it wouldn't identify you, what kind of business were you dreaming about having? I know most of us here guard our privacy very carefully. Can you refer me to particular posts that tell your story, to save you the trouble of re-telling it here? We used to have a "my story" segment on our profiles but that hasn't been appearing for a long time.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

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GnomeDePlume:<P>First, Love the name. Visual impression of a little guy sporting a 3 musketeers hat adorned by a purple and blue ostrich feather.<P>I confused you? Let's go through the post:<P><BR>Losing my soul = selling out, giving in to staying with a husband who now tells me that the vows he spoke were false. I think I would be a hypocrite to go on pretending. There is an assumption that in our society, we marry out of love. I'm no golddigger, didn't marry for status or wealth, but was so proud of my husband's good character. He was so honest, had such integrity, trustworthiness. Oh yes, and he acted as if he adored me. <P><BR>"You say you will “lose your soul” if you stay, and that you “can’t live a lie.” <I>What</I> lie would you be living if you stayed? I don’t understand. You <I>did</I> say that you can no longer “brag about how good he was”, but what does that have to do with staying?"<P>Good questions which I can't answer clearly. Maybe this helps: I never had to pretend to love him or to be proud of him. That he was who he was sufficed for my pride and adoration. I was also proud of his affection toward me, and of his demonstrativeness. He never bought me jewelry, never suggested romantic getaway weekends, but when he took my hand while we walked together, and gave me that silly grin that meant he couldn't wait to get me into bed, I felt valued. He used to come up to me at the sink and hug me, or when I was bending over the oven. Now I could be a hatrack or a phone book, it would be the same.<P>"but you say your realization was that “I no longer love him. Everything is in place, but it has died.” <I>What</I> is the “<I>it</I>” that has died?" <P>My love for him has died. A lot of it was based on a lie. Two lies: That he was a man incapable of lying, and that he loved me with all his heart and wanted to grow old with me. What is in place are the trappings: A house, a "Mr. and Mrs." on our mail, attendance at school events together, same AAA member number. What is elsewhere is his heart, he carries a torch for the woman he loves, and it isn't his wife. What is in place are empty gestures: the way he presents his cheek for me to kiss when he goes to work or goes to bed and never puts his lips on my skin; the way he turns his lips away from mine and presents his cheek instead; the way he looks at my left ear rather than in my eyes; his formality in addressing me; the carefully chosen anniversary and birthday cards that no longer say anything about romance, love, or passion, or forever. <P>"My suspicion here is that your post is the outpouring of a lot of deep feelings that needed to come out, and so it would be inappropriate for me to demand coherence." Uh, yeah.<P>"God knows that it took <I>me</I> years to recognize and mourn the loss <I>my</I> “dream” or expectation of how life and marriage were “supposed” to be. I hid it all from myself through depression."<P>I understand that we all have to face the loss of what we thought we were entering into at different points in the marriage. And up til D-day I thought I had handled the different disillusionments pretty well. But "I don't love you, I will never have sex with you again, we'll never be lovers again, and I've been lying to myself all these years." That was a rough one and I still haven't accepted it. I believe it now, but I don't accept it.<P> Did you recognize that you were depressed?<P>"Your new dream can be of your own choosing. What do you want to build it on?"<P>I don't know, truly.<P>That I realized my love was dead when he was doing so very much and taking care of so much, yes, I know it is contradictory. All I can say to explain it is that the years of his fawning over this OW, and gradually pulling away from me, plus the D-day + year and a half have done a lot of damage. <P>Maybe there really does come a point, when your spouse can go past the point of no return, and it is too late. He has never been physically abusive, but the strict adherance to the "I don't love you, I don't want you" and withdrawing of affection, have taken their toll.<P>"Your husband stuck with the counseling for <I>six months</I> more than he had originally agreed to, and even after getting no substantive results he still wants to stay together."<P>True. But I believe he had his mind made up at the beginning of the counseling, that it couldn't help him or help us. Based on his phrases: "We could get counseling to see whether we can regain the feelings we once had." Later ammended in counseling to "No, I never said that! What I said was 'the feelings we once THOUGHT we had'". <P>And "I think that C(the counselor) really believes he can help us." Not "I think C can really help us." In retrospect, he was already weasling with his careful phrasing.<P>"The OW seems to be out of the picture."<P>They talk on the phone all the time, and she attended the staff Christmas lunch with him even though she has left his office. Not far enough out of hte picture to suit me. He can't begin withdrawal unless contact is completely cut off. It's still in the fantasy stage.<P>"And yet you say he got you to “call it quits so he’s not the Bad Guy.” Again, I don’t know your story, but something about this just doesn’t add up for me."<P>H is a passive-aggressive guy. He's not very direct about asking for what he wants. <P>"If the marital counseling wasn’t working, I can understand how your husband could become discouraged with it. What I’m wondering is, <I>why</I> wasn’t it working?"<P>My belief, and counselor's belief, that he refused to deal with feelings in any way. He did the bare minimum of homework, and responded obtusely to direct questions. Sort of like Clinton.<P>I appreciate your hard questions, they make me think. I want to get to the rest of your post, but I'm on my way out to a dinner dance (sans husband) where me and other stag wives are helping to raise money for our kids' school. Thank you for thinking so deeply. My "date" is picking me up soon.<BR> <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bellevue:<BR><B> First, Love the name. Visual impression of a little guy sporting a 3 musketeers hat adorned by a purple and blue ostrich feather.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, the hat isn’t a tricorne, but how <I>ever</I> did you guess the color of the quill? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Losing my soul = selling out, giving in to staying with a husband who now tells me that the vows he spoke were false. I think I would be a hypocrite to go on pretending. There is an assumption that in our society, we marry out of love.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm. I’m not sure I understand what you are saying here. Hypocrisy is about a lack of <I>internal</I> integrity, not about others’ possible perceptions. If you are not fooling <I>yourself</I>, or deliberately <I>trying</I> to deceive others, I don’t see that there’s any hypocrisy.<P>I recommend reading Susan Page’s book <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767900421/o/qid=981936639/sr=8-3/ref=aps_sr_b_2_2/102-5962731-9648156" TARGET=_blank> How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together</A>. I’m not very confident about the efficacy of her techniques in your situation, but what she has to say about attitude could be very helpful.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Did you recognize that you were depressed?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I recognized it pretty early on, within a year of my first major depressive episode, I think. My depressive episodes were always unusually short, but other than that I was a textbook case. I don’t remember how I got onto researching depression (I think maybe my mother-in-law suggested it, or perhaps even my wife), but once I’d read up on it, it was really pretty obvious.<P>It didn’t take too long to figure out in general what was probably feeding my depression, but unfortunately I found that I had to get very specific in my awareness of my hidden feelings before I was able to combat the depression effectively. I had to get to know myself very well indeed. <I>That</I> took several years of hard work, and I am already introspective by nature.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>"The OW seems to be out of the picture."<P>They talk on the phone all the time, and she attended the staff Christmas lunch with him even though she has left his office. Not far enough out of hte picture to suit me. He can't begin withdrawal unless contact is completely cut off. It's still in the fantasy stage.<P>…My belief, and counselor's belief, that he refused to deal with feelings in any way. He did the bare minimum of homework, and responded obtusely to direct questions. Sort of like Clinton.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The picture I’m getting is that your husband has a fantasy life that encompasses more than his affair. It sounds as if he may be trying to bolster his ego by seeing himself as a noble knight, separated from his true love by the constraints of circumstance; fulfilling his duties according to his code of honor, but nevertheless being true to his “lady” love.<P>You may be nothing more nor less than an actor on the stage of his fantasy. A source of temptation placed there to test his wits and the strength of his “character”. (Er, I know you’re not supposed to point out puns, but in this case the double meaning of the word “character” is significant.)<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited February 11, 2001).]

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I am exactly where you are, I am moving out with my children the end of this month. My h would be ok with staying here together until the D is final in June. I cannot, it is like a neverending funeral. We have alot in common please email brendir@aol.com

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dear carol14:<BR>" I cannot, it is like a neverending funeral."<P>That is exactly how I feel. But to set the record straight, and be honest with everyone here, I haven't made plans to move out, and instead am staying. Here is what I hope: <P>That out of this pile of S*** that is our marriage, I can build a new life. The S*** is manure. What can I fertilize with it? I prayed this morning for God to tell me what His plan is for my life. I haven't called an attorney, instead I am praying for a dream (an ambition or an I don't know what) that I can achieve with the free time I have during the day. <P>I could go back to school if I knew for sure what I wanted to do when I "grew up". Develop a talent and turn it into a business. Go into partnership with someone with a good business head, -<P>The upshot is, I'm not moving. I'm staying put. And recognizing that he doesn't want to divorce, and seeing that there is enough security in our lives that I can build a new life out of the ashes. <P>So I posted too soon on the Divorcing and Divorced boards. Out of pain (which I thought I had medicated pretty much to a manageable state). <P>The new life can't include a romance or another man. At least until this one is officially, on paper and in fact, over. <P> <P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

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Dear GnomeDePlume:<P>"It sounds as if he may be trying to bolster his ego by seeing himself as a noble knight, separated from his true love by the constraints of circumstance; fulfilling his duties according to his code of honor, but nevertheless being true to his “lady” love."<P>Yup. During one of our last counseling sessions, when he told me we'd never be lovers again and that he didn't want to even talk about sex, I did say to him "Don't cheat on the woman you love by having sex with your wife!" I have become vicious and spiteful, venomous, because of the pain of his rejection. His reaction was a jump and involuntary widening of the eyes but no other change. He's very good at keeping a poker face.<P>"You may be nothing more nor less than an actor on the stage of his fantasy. A source of temptation placed there to test his wits and the strength of his “character”. (Er, I know you’re not supposed to point out puns, but in this case the double meaning of the word “character” is significant.)"<P>God, that's cold. Some marriage, huh? As for pointing out puns, they are my favorite form of humor. Not very sophisticated, but hey that's me. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>On to the topic of hypocrisy. Interesting point, that I know what's going on inside me. But what bothers me is that there's a certain level of deception necessary to keep up the fiction to all my friends and all our friends, that life is "as usual". The old jokes between us that had a special meaning about the shared value we held of our marriage, they are lies now. <P>I realize that one doesn't spill their guts to casual friends, that it isn't good for everyone on your block or on your floor or in your club to know that you've found out your whole marriage was a fraud. I realize you need privacy. But it bothers me that we're living a lie. I'm trying to come to terms with doing that.<P>Thank God for zoloft.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

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O divine one! Are you me?<P>First, let me say that I do not guard my privacy too much here, because I am very open and trusting --I think that's what got me into this mess. heehee [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] I am currently working as an accountant for the federal government (yawn, huh?), and before this I owned a business selling, installing, servicing and supporting touchscreen point of sale computers for restaurants and hotels. Our big "hook" was that when a client bought a system from us, they got everything from programming, training, installing, repairing, and supporting their system from people they had met, rather than part from one company, training from someone else and support from an impersonal 800# person whom they had never met. I worked at our business from 1991 to Feb. 2000, at it grew from 2 employees to 10 employees during my tenure, and sales went from $100K to almost $1 million. BUT, I never got any acknowledgement that I even contributed, so it wasn't very hard for me to leave, in that sense. It was much more hard for me to give up my own dreams of creating a multi-million dollar business with offices around the country and passing that on to one of my kids. Without me, the business died in less than a year, and now all those years of work are destroyed.<P>But HEY, enough about me. Now you know where I'm coming from though, right? Belle, in a very strange way, you and I are going through something fairly similar right now, although in all fairness, it seems like my H's heart is in it a little more than yours. I was wondering something. Just a quick summary: do YOU feel very small feelings of love for your H? He says that you have not loved him, and he says he never loved you the way a husband should love a wife. Well, where did he get that expectation from? Is it HIS expectation (something HE learned) or is it YOUR expectation (like you told him he didn't love you like a husband should)? <P>The reason why I ask is that I FIRMLY believe that the feeling of LOVE is fickle . . . it comes and goes just like the moon waxes and wanes. Sometimes the moon is full and beautiful and shimmery and bright (and love is smooshy and lovely and rose-colored) and later in the same month the moon is new and dark and appears to be gone (and love is dark and murky and seems like it has disappeared). Seriously, my goddess, I am not saying that you haven't been more than patient and benevolent to this mere mortal man, but what I am saying is that the "feeling" of being "in love" can be brought back and resurrected from the ashes. <P>There's an excellent article that Harley wrote called, "How To Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflict and Restore Love to Your Marriage" and you can read it when you first log into the the Marriage Builder forums, when you would normally click on Divorcing/Divorced or Emotional Needs (or whatever), scroll down to the article and click on it. That article gives you a clear, step-by-step way to make restoring love a priority in your marriage, how to restore love in your marriage, and how to ultimately resolve conflicts. <P>One big thing that you mentioned that seems to be a HUGE stick in the mud, is that there is continued (albeit, limited) contact with the OW. As long as they are in contact at all, the connection between them will not be ended, and the connection between you and your H will not be 100%. There will always be a small percentage that is not connected to you and is connected to her. Another great Harley article--hey, I don't work for them, but these two articles just say things pretty clearly--is called "Infidelity: Rules for Recovery", and you can find it on the Marriage Builders home page, scrolling down to the bottom, and clicking under the topic Infidelity, the article "Rules for Recovery". <P>And so, oh great divine one, do not dispair. "Love" can be restored if both parties will actually work at it. THAT is the real key here--is he really willing to work on it and do the hard work that he must do in order to restore the love. If so, you two can and will be honeymooners again. And if not, at least you and I will always be friends. <P>{{{{{Domestic Goddess}}}}}<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

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Dear GnomeDePlume:<P>Before I answer another post, I wanted to go back and elaborate and clarify what I mean about hypocrisy and my soul dying:<P>Back some months ago I was making a St. Jude Novena about guess what - yeah, our marriage. A travelling missionary said mass every morning of the novena and gave homilies that really spoke to the struggles I was having.<P>His first one dealt with a woman who was doing all the religious things a saintly person does: pilgrimages to shrines, novenas, daily masses, rosaries. Always wore blue and white, the colors of the Virgin. But something didn't ring true about her. The whole story is in my post about a St. Jude Novena, but the upshot was that this saintly hypocrite was looking to hire a hit man to murder her daughter's fiance. She never confessed to him (the priest) but he discovered it when the daughter told the fiance,and the fiance told it to him in confession. <P>The woman was living two separate lives, on the outside, religious and devout, on the inside, hateful and murderous. Since the problems really came out in the open, my heart has been full of hate and anger. It is like an acid in me. And I stood in line to confess privately after mass to this priest. He asked me "Why do you stay? You should leave. You don't have a marriage, and your son is absorbing what he sees, even if you don't think you are showing him the truth."<P>I am too weak to leave. So I'm living a lie, and something I worked so hard to have, integrity, isn't my life anymore. <P>As to your comment about being a player on his stage, and his self-image, yes. He is a "rescuer", and he rescues the OW, as he once "rescued" me. What was once so appealing doesn't glow anymore, because I'm not the object of his knight in shining armor impulses. He doesn't carry my - what was it called, a token? into battle. He wears her perfect gift from last Christmas to work daily - a Coach watch. He carries her perfect gift to work every day from this Christmas - an expensive briefcase. I spotted it last night and lit into him in the laundry room, spilled hate all over him.<P>He pretended he'd been carrying it since Christmas. He hadn't; because I snooped in his briefcase once since Christmas, and it was the same, old, servicable case as always. <P>Sorry, I'm just venting. Off the point.<P>Thanks for the book recommendation. Though it feels too late, I'll get it at the library. I don't want to spend any more money on a marriage that apparently never was.<P>Re your question about why the counseling didn't work: Our counselor didn't want to "scare" my H by pressing too hard. So whenever a topic came up that he didn't want to delve into, he prohibited it. He refused to talk about the most important issues, one of which was sex. Though we tried gently to bring these issues up from time to time, and prodded and encouraged, we knew he could walk out if pushed too hard. The counseling wasn't his idea in the first place. <P>And the day of our son's party, when he was doing everything and taking such care? It was for our son. And that is important, I appreciate that he loves him so much. But he has done this much and more for the OW's children. In years past he has written dates for her children on the calendar when the OWH was travelling out of the country, without ever running it by me first: ("OW is having a party for her D and since OWH is away, I want to go and help her with the party. Would that conflict with anything we have planned? Do you mind if I do that?") And he would drive 1-1/2 hrs to carry out her garbage, serve cake, do lifeguard duty at their pool. Of course, our S couldn't go to the party.<P>Gnome, are you still awake? This is a real snoozer, pages and pages. For years I had urged my H to go off and help his friends when it was necessary, entertained his college friends (mostly women) at our home, fixed up the guest room for them, sent them homemade candy, etc. and was able to do this secure in his love. As I grew to doubt it (rightly I know now) I became less secure about this Friend and about his love for me.<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess<p>[This message has been edited by Bellevue (edited February 13, 2001).]

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Dear FaithfulWife:<P>It's wonderful to make a connection, isn't it? So many people with the same pain and the same stories. <P>I admire and envy anyone who can do accounting. It's like higher math to me. I don't even write the checks in our house because of years of screwing up and bouncing them. <P><BR>I don't understand how you got no recognition for the success of your business. And I'm in awe of anybody who can do all that you did. To keep all the balls in the air without dropping any, and to have the busines grow and prosper as yours did. How did that happen, the non-recognition I mean?<P>"do YOU feel very small feelings of love for your H?"<P>Occasionaly a smattering. But it's like water was poured on a campfire. I think it's too late to rekindle the embers. He told us that the counseling hadn't worked. Truth be told, he had his mind made up from the beginning, stonewalled, footdragged, put up barriers to important issues by refusing to discuss them ever, and kept up contact with his "Friend", and agreed to see the counselor on his own when I was out of town for 3 weeks, then denied ever saying that he would, and allowed things to be scheduled on days when we had counseling appointments so that we couldn't attend. <P> "He says that you have not loved him, and he says he never loved you the way a husband should love a wife. Well, where did he get that expectation from?"<P>He has some fantasy of what love is, around perfect self-sacrificing and unconditional love, being willing to suffer and endure anything for the sake of the beloved. Since I refuse to endure humiliation, he sees it as not being truly loving. I see it as having self-respect that I refuse to relinquish.<P>"HIS expectation (something HE learned)" I think from watching how his mother deals with his father. I'm sure that's what it is. <P>ANd I agree, love does wax and wane. I recognize it. I don't think I'm silly or over romantic. I don't demand jewelry, furs, remodeling, new car, servants, new house, don't mandate a certain number of hours per week devoted to "date" activities, and I'm content to spend holidays with his parents because I really love them, rather than have a splashy weekend getaway or something. That I want to be loved more than his BestFriend makes me selfish.<BR>Gnone de Plume recommended a book to me; I'm going to ask for it at the library. I'll also click onto the article you recommended. <P>Loved talking to you. Now I'm off to see my friend, the Rabbi.<P> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

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My divine one, <P>Thanks for your note. You asked a very interesting question. I worked at our company from 1991 to 2000, and I worked very hard. I primarily established all of the business office systems: like Invoicing, Accts. Receiveable, Accts. Payable, filing, and ordering. I also established the bookkeeping and accounting procedures, and I prepared the taxes for the business and did the income taxes for ourselves and a lot of the employees (they asked me! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] ) I also set up and ran the software support, coordinated the service and the installation calendars, planned all the business trips, did public relations (kept our business in the news paper and at the "right" functions) and a myriad of other things. <P>I knew that what I did for the company was not only valuable, it was vital, but my H did not share my opinion. In fact, he regularly and routinely said in front of the employees that a trained monkey could do my job, and he could carry on just fine without me. He regularly and routinely did not support my authority to direct our employees--and in fact, he usually sided with the employee in a dispute in front of the company. <P>Okay, I'd have to say that I sound bitter, and I would readily admit that I am very hurt by the lack of recognition for all those years of contribution, but it's over now. I am now in a job I LOVE, working with people I LOVE who acknowledge my contribution, doing work that I LOVE, working hours that I LOVE. The past is gone and we can not call "Do Over", so I'm concentrating on where I am at now. <P>Bellevue, I'm sorry to read the things I've read in your reply to GdP. You have had a long, hard road, oh divine one. It's about time that someone recognize you for the goddess that you are. <P>{{{{{{{{{{Bellevue}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bellevue:<BR><B>The woman was living two separate lives, on the outside, religious and devout, on the inside, hateful and murderous. Since the problems really came out in the open, my heart has been full of hate and anger. It is like an acid in me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hypocrisy is not a conflict between inner feelings and outer behavior. It’s a conflict between <I>values</I> and behavior. If I espouse certain values and make no attempt to live by them, I am a hypocrite. If I <I>don’t feel like</I> doing what I believe is right, but I do it anyway, I am <I>not</I> a hypocrite. Feelings are there to tell us something, and although we cannot afford to deny or ignore them, it is often not appropriate to take them literally. Feelings can <I>affect</I> our attitude and behavior if we <I>allow</I> them to do so, but feelings do not <I>define</I> our attitude or <I>control</I> our behavior.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I stood in line to confess privately after mass to this priest. He asked me "Why do you stay? You should leave. You don't have a marriage, and your son is absorbing what he sees, even if you don't think you are showing him the truth."</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How much of your situation were you really able to convey to this priest in the short time you had? I think he was way off base to come to such a quick judgement. Yes, your son is absorbing what he sees, but what message is he getting if you stay, versus if you leave? Which message is more harmful? Is being “true to yourself” better than being “true to your vows”? Which shows more integrity?<P>I still don’t understand what “lie” you are living.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Re your question about why the counseling didn't work: Our counselor didn't want to "scare" my H by pressing too hard. So whenever a topic came up that he didn't want to delve into, he prohibited it. He refused to talk about the most important issues, one of which was sex. Though we tried gently to bring these issues up from time to time, and prodded and encouraged, we knew he could walk out if pushed too hard. The counseling wasn't his idea in the first place.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I get the picture. Your husband was not committed to the counseling. He was just stringing you along.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Gnome, are you still awake? This is a real snoozer, pages and pages. For years I had urged my H to go off and help his friends when it was necessary, entertained his college friends (mostly women) at our home, fixed up the guest room for them, sent them homemade candy, etc. and was able to do this secure in his love. As I grew to doubt it (rightly I know now) I became less secure about this Friend and about his love for me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You call <I>this</I> “pages and pages”? Clearly, you haven’t seen my journal. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] And if you think this is a snoozer, you never saw my old freshman chemistry textbook. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>The security issue is a big one. I think it comes down to balance. If your spouse is spending a lot of quality time with you, then the lesser amount of time spent with someone else seems non-threatening. But when your spouse pulls away from you, they become more vulnerable to other “attractions” and you can <I>sense</I> the danger, even if your spouse cannot…<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>He has some fantasy of what love is, around perfect self-sacrificing and unconditional love, being willing to suffer and endure anything for the sake of the beloved. Since I refuse to endure humiliation, he sees it as not being truly loving. I see it as having self-respect that I refuse to relinquish.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I must confess, I share your husband’s fantasy about what love is. It squares pretty well with I Corinthians 13. However, there’s an important difference in interpretation. That little phrase “for the sake of” means that you do what is <I>best</I> for the beloved, not whatever happens to suit their whim. Enabling behavior is <I>not</I> loving behavior.<P>And there’s another factor that needs to be taken into account here. It’s at the root of all Harley’s principles, and I have painful personal experience to remind me of just how important it is. Once you have sacrificed “all”, you have nothing left to sacrifice, no matter how “willing” you may be. You cannot love someone else more than you love yourself, and if you relinquish your self-respect you will have lost your capacity to give.<P>I wish I had something more helpful to say…<BR>

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Dear FaithfulWife:<P>Your job description is my idea of a nightmare. I could never handle such responsibility, so many multiple tasks. However, I have been describe as a "good employee" by a former boss. When a system is organized and in place, and when I am free to concentrate on one thing at a time, I do really well. I get into a zen state and don't even realize time is passing, and work until a task is finished. So ----- we ought to go into business together! <BR>in the news paper and at the "right" functions) and a myriad of other things. <P>"I knew that what I did for the company was not only valuable, it was vital, but my H did not share my opinion. In fact, he regularly and routinely said in front of the employees that a trained monkey could do my job, and he could carry on just fine without me. He regularly and routinely did not support my authority to direct our employees--and in fact, he usually sided with the employee in a dispute in front of the company."<P>All of that was extremely destructive, as any trained monkey could see. Too bad your H wasn't a trained monkey. Now that everything has fallen apart, it must tickle at some spot in his brain that maybe he missed the obvious. <P>I am happy for you about the job you have. <P>"It's about time that someone recognize you for the goddess that you are."<P>The dog does. Thanks for the hugs!<BR> <P><BR>CJ<P>[/B][/QUOTE]<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

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GnomeDePlume:<BR>Thank God for this site and for the wisdom of the people who come here. I'm not going to respond to your post right now, but print it out and ponder it. And think whether it squares with my own beliefs. Sometimes the abstract is hard for me to fathom. At some point in my life, development stopped, and froze, and though I write well, logical thought - going from A to Z - is hard for me. I think circularly, intuitively. But your post gets to the heart of my conflict with my conscience.<P>I spent many years doing wrong things and glossing over the effect it had on my life and my soul. So in a way I stunted the growth of my conscience. It's hard to make up for that kind of psychic malnutrition, but I'm trying. And now I'm going to print what you said, and carry the Bible with me to read in "down time" Corinthians.<P>Sometimes when we think we haven't been helpful, Gnone, we have done the most good.<BR>Thanks for your thoughts.<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess


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