Thank you once again for responding. I must apologize again fo rbeing defensive, I really didn't want you or any of the others to think badly of me, so I had to explain myself.<BR>Your post was helpful. I agree with you about calling a poisonous enviroment a church. I usually call it a cult and in front of my husband and he gets so angry for talking about "his people" like that. It isn't a church, that is certain. I have written an anonymous e-mail to the pastor about his behavior (the pastor's) and I have also contacted the school where they meet. I jsut wanted the school to know what kind of people they are being associated with.<BR>Thank you for responding and thank you for the advice.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brokenwings:<BR><B>I agree with you about calling a poisonous enviroment a church. I usually call it a cult and in front of my husband and he gets so angry for talking about "his people" like that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You may be 100% accurate in calling this "church" a cult, but it's hard for me to see how calling it that to your husband's face can be beneficial. Tell <I>anyone</I> that they are involved with a cult, and they are virtually guaranteed to get defensive. Defensiveness does <I>not</I> foster communication. Further, using a term with such negative connotations amounts to a "disrespectful judgement". However valid the judgement, and however deserved the disrespect, the effect is destructive.<P>If your husband is <I>capable</I> of rational discussion, that's a far better approach to take, both for its greater potential for effectiveness, and because it conveys a certain level of respect. If your husband has a fragile ego, then working to shore it up could be enormously beneficial. If you <I>behave</I> towards your husband as if you expect maturity, he <I>might</I> actually rise to the challenge. He may even surprise himself.<P>A working marriage is a partnership of equals. Unless your husband respects <I>himself</I>, he will not be able to respect <I>you</I> without damage to his self-esteem. Also, he needs <I>your</I> respect as much as you need <I>his</I>, and there are no shortcuts to gaining respect. Respect is something that must be earned.<P>What I'm counting on here is that your husband has enough of an ego to build upon. (And I'm using "ego" in the psychoanalytic sense here. True narcissists probably have less of an ego than anyone else.) Your posts have raised a number of warning flags that this may not be the case. However, you have not provided nearly enough information to justify such a conclusion, and indeed it may be too early for anyone to tell. Your husband is awfully young.<BR>

<BR>What I'm counting on here is that your husband has enough of an ego to build upon. (And I'm using "ego" in the psychoanalytic sense here. True narcissists probably have less of an ego than anyone else.) Your posts have raised a number of warning flags that this may not be the case. However, you have not provided nearly enough information to justify such a conclusion, and indeed it may be too early for anyone to tell. Your husband is awfully young.[/B][/QUOTE]<P>Unfortunately, I do not think that my husband has enough of an ego to build upon. I do not even believe that he has an identity of his own that he knows about. He emulates his father in every way, which I find to be quite dysfunctional. I did not see this before we were married but it is so obvious to me now. My husband amazes me with his blindness towards his father's and his "church's" behavior and ideas. He truly believes that it is the right way to live.<P>My husband's father ruled his household with an iron fist. The boys were not allowed to cry. They were made to feel guilty about having toys, so my husband gave away all of his toys at the tender age of 7 and never asked or received more. My husband may treat me cruely but I see him as a vicitm also. He was and still is a victim of his father's, my husband does not know how to behave in any other way other than the way he has seen his father behave. It brings me to tears that this has had such a profound effect on my husband.<P>My husband does have an identity but he pushes it so far in that it rarely surfaces. My husband in reality, when he is not trying to be his father (he is being his father most often), is a kind, gentle, intelligent, and compassionate man. I have told him this but he just tells me that I am imagining it or that the stressors of life have "killed" that man. It is truly a most sad situation.<P>I have tried to rationalize with my husband, I have tried to tell my husband that I am worried about him and that I am only trying to help him, I have tried everything ( I think) to make him see the truth. I just am not able to. My H is so brainwashed that he believes anything his father or the members of the "church" tell him. Which leads me to where I am today. I am a "manipulative witch" and "demon possessed" according to them.<P>I am beginning to think that my situation is hopeless. My husband is young and he is very impressionable (only with certain people mind you). I think he may be too young to realize what he is doing and the effects that these decisions he is making today are going to have on his life, my life, and our daughter's life.

Dear Brokenwings,<P>I usually hang out at the Emotional Needs and Women's Bible Study boards so you may not recognize my handle. But you are not the first to feel reviled. Please click on the links below and read the following three threads. It will take quite a while, but the story is fairly rivetting.<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum5/HTML/001252.html" TARGET=_blank>Spiritual abuse, etc. from spouse</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum5/HTML/001309.html" TARGET=_blank>Renae, How are you doing</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum5/HTML/001424.html" TARGET=_blank>Earth to Renae, Earth to Renae...Where are You???</A>

brokenwings,<P>You certainly have my sympathy, as you are in a tough spot. In general, separation is not a good idea, as it removes much of one's opportunity to "make deposits in your spouse's love bank" to use Marriage Builders terms. An exception would be if you need to get away to avoid physical or emotional damage, which may be the case here. You wrote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Unfortunately, I do not think that my husband has enough of an ego to build upon. I do not even believe that he has an identity of his own that he knows about.<P>...My husband may treat me cruely but I see him as a vicitm also.<P>I am beginning to think that my situation is hopeless. My husband is young and he is very impressionable (only with certain people mind you). I think he may be too young to realize what he is doing and the effects that these decisions he is making today are going to have on his life, my life, and our daughter's life.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was once a part of a cult-like Christian group. The difference is that the leaders, unlike those in the group you describe, were really fine people with bad theology. My belief now is that most of those involved had huge psychological/emotional "holes" in themselves due to FOO (family of origin) issues. They thus were left to try to fill the holes and find identity through the group. Without that foundation of emotional security and identity it will be very hard for your husband to have a healthy home life with you and your child. He probably has years of work ahead to be able to arrive at a healthy state (sorry to sound discouraging).<P>Maybe an assessment of the chances of ever having a healthy relationship with your H is in order. If your relationship is like the one which Karenna has given you links to, then you may save yourself a lot of pain by letting it end now. You have to decide how much you can do to try and save your relationship and help your H without being dragged under yourself. On the other hand, if you think it worth trying to save your marriage, I think you should read carefully the links WilliamJ gave you on your first thread and try to do your best Plan A. Perhaps if you can rebuild your relationship with your husband, you can help him separate from the influence of his father and their "church", and encourage him to get the help he needs.<P>However, as a Christian, I believe that only Jesus can be a Saviour--the rest of us are simply unqualified. You can help your H only if he wants to be helped. He'll probably need long-term counseling and a lot of effort on his part to get better. You can't make him change--he has to be responsible for his own choices.<P>Anyway, those are my "2 cents". You're the one in the situation and have to evaluate for yourself what people are saying. Seriously consider looking at the Renae threads and letting us know to what degree your H is like hers.<P>Take care,<P>Steve<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brokenwings:<BR><B>I have also contacted the school where they meet. I jsut wanted the school to know what kind of people they are being associated with.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If I were in your shoes, and the "church" is really advocating the kind of child abuse you described, I would be devoting serious thought to whether I should be notifying the police, or child protective services. I don't know if it would really do any good, and it would no doubt count as a major lovebuster with your husband, but this is very serious business.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My husband may treat me cruely but I see him as a vicitm also. He was and still is a victim of his father's, my husband does not know how to behave in any other way other than the way he has seen his father behave. It brings me to tears that this has had such a profound effect on my husband.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can’t claim to know anything much about abuse or abusive personalities. I <I>do</I> know that they are usually victims of abuse themselves, and so I am very concerned for both you and your husband. You are right to see your husband as a victim, but that recognition can never justify allowing yourself to be/become a victim. Your compassion for him <I>will not</I> help him if he does not reach out for help himself.<P>Again, I don’t know much about abusive personalities, but I am not yet willing to label your husband as such. Since he is young and under the domination of those he sees as authorities, I don’t know how anyone can tell <I>what</I> he might become if he escaped that domination (a prospect that must surely terrify him).<P>There are some encouraging signs. It was your <I>husband</I> that suggested a separation, and I don’t believe that is at all characteristic of an abusive personality. Abusers must keep their victims under their thumb at all times. And then there is his comment that his “kind, gentle, intelligent, and compassionate” self has been “killed”. If he can mourn the loss of his self, then he just might be able to reclaim that self.<P>But if he stays within the abusive environment of his “church” and allows himself to be controlled by his father, I very much doubt that there is <I>any</I> chance for your husband or your marriage. He <I>must</I> break free, and that task should prove as difficult as breaking any other addiction. And as with addiction, the first step to recovery involves acknowledging that there is a problem. <P>For the purpose of applying Harley’s principles, I imagine you could view that “church” as the OW in your husband’s life.<BR>