Hi all,<P>I'd like to get some advice from you if I can.<P>My W has served me with the papers, she has bought a house for herself, and she is moving out in just over a week. We have worked out all the details, including the infamous Marital Settlement Agreement, which basically divides up all assets plus child custody.<P>Here's the question. She has actually filed for Legal Separation (LS) instead of Dissolution. From what I understand, LS is identical to Dissolution, with the exception being that you can't remarry if you're "only" Legally Separated. It's NOT some kind of a trial separation, where you try to see if you can reconcile. It's basically saying that we no longer wish to be married, but do not want to divorce for some odd reason (usually it's for people who are morally opposed to divorce, but my W's morals are not something for us to worry about at this point). <P>I need to file my Response to her Petition. I have the option of filing my Response with LS checked, or with Dissolution checked. If I check Dissolution, it always prevails over LS, and we'd be divorced. Or, I can check LS, and then stay in limbo land...<P>In general, I never wanted to be accused of being the one to file for the divorce, even though my W has already done all the dirty work (affair, now moving out, etc), so I was planning to respond with an LS as well.<P>But (there's always a "but"), today I saw an e-mail where she was telling someone that "Hubby and I are done". Then, just as a morale booster, I saw that the OM is back in the "sex message" business, as he has the sent the following message to her pager: "LICK MY C*CK " (Sorry, ladies).<P>So, I ask you, would someone be anything but a retard to check anything other than a Dissolution box...??<P>I'd appreciate any comments. In any case, this stuff really sucks. <P>AGG<BR><p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited February 16, 2001).]

I think that you just answered your own question. Good Luck.

Hi AGG<<P>what a 'charmer' om is.... NOT.<P>I also think you answered your own question..<P>What do YOU want from all this? If you're not sure about divorce, let her do it.<P>If all the legalities have been sorted out, ie, finance and child custody, I say let her do all the work. Don't forget, a LS also stops her from re-marrying. (I'm not from your country so I hope I understood that part of your post).<P>Maybe, just maybe, she'll come to her senses in the future. It all depends on how long you are prepared to wait, and how much you are prepared to put up with.<P>take care of you, and I'm on your side.<P>Jo<P>

Do you want finality yet?<P>LS maintains a real tie; and doesn't require another marriage to reverse. I would opt for this. If either of you changes your mind later, it's a much smaller deal. <P>It is also congruent with her wishes, and costs you little at the moment.<P>Your life, your choice.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>I have the option of filing my Response with LS checked, or with Dissolution checked. If I check Dissolution, it always prevails over LS, and we'd be divorced.</B><P>I would check LS. I know this sounds nutty, but the fact that the OM has reemerged here actually tqweaks up my hope for there being...well...some hope. It shows that she is still in the fog, and her decisionmaking regarding you and her famuily are not being done with a clear mind.<P>The next month or so will bve interesting. It is one thing to have a secret little affair, another to move out and be expecting your married lover to hop in with you. She may find her fantasy shattered pretty quickly. And she was telling you a while ago that you were her dream husnband now, and she had noticed all of your Plan A changes. The problem is, we see now, that she was still fogged.<P>I know, you are out of gas, but don't think that might not be able to change. Maybe. Just don't totally discount it. Yet <P>You know my advice...hang in there, and definitely make an effort to clandestinely inform the various people in her life and the OM's life that will make her new lovenest not all so rosy and cosy. Time that right on moving day, so her new life is immediately a big headache. <P>

AGG,<P>I would definitely check LS. Why? Well Mike and others have given good advice. Plus, she thinks it is over now because she sees a better option. I suspect that option may tarnish abit. Plus you don't have any attractive alternative do you??? <P>Personally, I think this is a win-win for you, not her. You get her out of the house. You get separation so that you can adjust to her being gone. This is very necessary in order for you to move on. You get to heal some. And you get to do this while still holding onto the card that says that this may still work out.<P>4-6 months from now, when you are healing, stronger, and used to your new life with the kids (I expect that you will get the kids full time pretty soon), then you can decide to divorce. Or maybe she will do it for you, then the decision is made for you.<P>I see only upside to the LS right now. It all plays in your favor. She will not do so well in separation I suspect. Particularly, if she has a conscience and any morality. That remains to be seen.<P>So, if it were me it would be LS, with a smile.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi all,<P>Thanks for your suggestions. I guess it looks like a 3 to 2 vote for LS, but I think some of these votes are from Florida, so I don't know if we need a recount .<P>I'm strongly leaning toward the Dissolution at this point, for a number of reasons. <P>First, I feel too humiliated to ever consider the idea of being married to my "W" long term. She has shown absolutely no respect for me, especially after the last round of "messaging" from the OM two months ago, when I told her how humiliating it was and that the next time would be the last time. I am tired of coming back for more beatings.<P>Next, I am tired of being the follower in this game. It was HER decision to start her affair, HER decision to withdraw all affection between us, HER decision to withdraw all intimacy, HER decision to do the in-home separation for 6 months, HER decision to stop counseling, HER decision to put her work above the family and kids, HER decision to now move out, and HER decision to file papers. Call me a control freak (not!) but I want to have some input in my life, and at this point this is the only input that *I* have.<P>Next, checking LS leaves me in limbo land. I don't feel comfortable dating anyone seriously if I'm "only" legally separated (even though the form explicitly says that "the two shall live their lives free from each other's control as if they were SINGLE"). So does this mean I spend the next god-knows how many months sitting around here while she proceeds with her games with the OM? <P>Next, checking Dissolution simply starts the timeline. It takes six months to get divorced, during which time the process can always be stopped. In six months, I will have been in this fiasco for 14 months, and I think that's enough time. I'm not getting any younger, and I want to move on...<P>Finally, I am frankly a bit concerned that if we do a LS now and then go for Dissolution, she may be able to renegotiate some of our settlement terms (I need to check this with lawyer). I am definitely ahead in our current agreement, and I don't want to lose that position.<P>Anyway, I'm still thinking, and I do appreciate the inputs. But for all you saying "LS", be honest with me, would you really have what it takes to continue if you were subjected to this kind of humiliation? Honestly?<P>AGG

AGG,<P>Well, lets get somethings straight. I would confront her about the message from OM. I would simply repeat the message to her, look at her, and point how really classy that is.<P>It won't make any difference now but later when you inform people of why you two are divorced you can/will explain to them that not only did she cheat, she was a stupid cheat, and she cheated with a truely classless guy.<P>Now, define for me humiliation? Since only you, your W, and OM know what is going on, I don't think you are being humiliated as you think. I think your self-esteem is taking a beating. I think your W is a miserable excuse for a human being right now.<P>I KNOW however, that when she moves out you won't see her pager messages any longer. You won't know when she sees him. And you won't really care. I also suspect that if it comes to divorce your W won't turn around, her pride being what it is.<P>So if you check dissolution, I suspect that things won't change.<P>There really is only one question of significance here. If your W decided she loved you and wanted to be your W again, would you want to be married to her?<P>If the answer is no, then dissolve the marriage. If it is yes, the check LS. You can start the divorce proceedings when you want. But as you say it may (I have no knowledge) lead to a renegotiation of the separation agreement.<P>I still think the LS offers the best chance for reconcilliation, but if you really don't want to be married to her, then what are you waiting for. <P><B>One interesting thing to consider, she doesn't want to divorce you.</B><P>Something to think about, AGG.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Agoodguy,<P> I've always been of the mindset that separation in these cases was the worse of both worlds. <P>Bad points are:<P>&#61623; You're still married (in a way)<BR>&#61623; She is still doing as she pleases.<BR>&#61623; Anything you do like dating would be frowned upon (you’re still married).<BR>&#61623; Most people that you would like to date would be hesitate (I'd hope).<BR>&#61623; Makes moving forward with new homes, cars and such a real hassle. In fact most applications do not even have a check box for LS.<P>Good points:<BR>&#61623; If you reconcile you can say you never got divorced. <BR>&#61623; If your religion does not allow divorce for adultery.<P>You know my vote. I think it really depends more on your time line for finality.<P>Good luck,<BR>Mike<BR>

JL, <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>I would confront her about the message from OM. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why? I've already done this once two months ago (as you know), when she finally realized (or so I thought) that I was not about to tolerate any more of this paging nonsense. Not that they didn't continue to carry on, but I made it pretty clear that I wasn't going to put up with it if they couldn't conceal the evidence. So now what? If I confront her again, have I just drawn one more line for her to cross? She already crossed the clear boundary that I drew for her. What more am I to say to her? "Cross THIS line"?? How many times am I going to cry "wolf"?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It won't make any difference now but later when you inform people of why you two are divorced you can/will explain to them that not only did she cheat, she was a stupid cheat, and she cheated with a truely classless guy.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can do that in any case, whether we only separate or divorce. In fact, I would rather be able to tell people that I divorced my W, as opposed to her divorcing me. That way if people ask "why did you do that?" I can tell them the truth about her affair. If she divorces me, people will ask "why did SHE divorce YOU", and the answer of "SHE had an affair" won't make any sense…<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Now, define for me humiliation? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I feel like this contact shows no respect for me as a human being by either my W or the OM. I guess I can think of nothing else but his stupid smile as he typed in his message and sent it on its merry way to my W, who got the same stupid grin on her face when she read it. Yes, I feel humiliated by this. Wouldn't you? I suppose I could go out and shoot the guy, but that's not likely to be helpful in the long run... <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I KNOW however, that when she moves out you won't see her pager messages any longer. You won't know when she sees him. And you won't really care. I also suspect that if it comes to divorce your W won't turn around, her pride being what it is.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course I won't see the pager any more, but so what? I'll know full well what will be going on, and I'd feel like an idiot sitting here being "only" legally separated while my W is "experimenting" with the OM's you-now-what... I'm not thinking of doing the Dissolution to shake my W up, I know it won't affect her because she is too proud. I'd be doing it for ME and for MY sanity!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>There really is only one question of significance here. If your W decided she loved you and wanted to be your W again, would you want to be married to her?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I guess we're taught at MB to "never say never", but I think after yesterday's discoveries, I'd have to answer your question with a "Never!"<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR><B>One interesting thing to consider, she doesn't want to divorce you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>JL, what DOES she want? What does "Hubby and I are done" mean? What does buying a new house for herself mean? She is one messed up woman, I'll grant you that. But you yourself always said that actions speak louder than words. I hear her actions pretty loudly now. Now to mention her message from OM… You also are a big proponent of "not making a decision IS making a decision". You know my story. Has she done ANYTHING in the last eight months to imply that her decision is anything OTHER than wanting to get divorced?<P>Besides, I reiterate my point above: filing for Dissolution still leaves the option for changing our minds for the next six months (yeah, right!). That should be more than enough time for her to "wake up". I don't even want to wait that long at this point, but I will. Like I said, I wouldn't be doing this to shake her up into reconciliation, but at the same time there is nothing about this action that would prevent a reconciliation (except for her stupid stubborness). It's been her show for the last eight months; maybe this is my final attempt at having some say in how my life proceeds from now on.<P>AGG<BR><p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited February 17, 2001).]

AGG,<P>Heck, AGG they haven't respected you for 8 months and in the case of your W, probably a year before that. I would say that is reason enough to divorce her, if you need additional reasons.<P>I would tell her, because it means she is stupid and I would really like to let her know that is what I think of her. LB??? Only just a little bit. <P>By the way, she didn't send that message to him, he sent it to her. She cannot control the tastelessness of this guy. He sounds like real corporate material doesn't he?? God I would fire his a$$ in a minute if he worked in my company. <P>You asked what she wants. I will tell you. She wants to be happy. End of story. She has no clue how to do that. She thinks it is over with "Hubby" because right now it is over, unless something changes. But something can change. That is the point. That is why there is a Plan B.<P>MB doesn't say "never say never". It says give it your best shot. Do it in a way that you are proud of yourself, but if the love has died, then if you have followed the tenants here, you should be pretty well prepared for life after divorce.<P>AGG, the divorce is your decision. Yes, you have control of it. Yes, she will have 6 months that she will squander, you know it and it know it. I would like to the both of you in a room and really get down to cases, but I cannot. It infuriates me to see something like this happen, but it does and it is to you.<P>I am very sorry.<P>So AGG you decide. There is merit in both actions. But only one action will bring you peace. The right one for you. <P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: I also think that not only do you have 6 months, but you can put a D on hold as well. Check with your lawyer about that as well.<P>I wish I could really help.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited February 17, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B> But for all you saying "LS", be honest with me, would you really have what it takes to continue if you were subjected to this kind of humiliation? Honestly?AGG</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is funny how you and I disagree over which party in your marriage is debasing and humiliating themselves.<P>The LS/DS thing looks like a semantical hairsplitting to me. Take the high road. Being able to say you divorced her or she divorced you isn't going to impress or matter to anyone in the future, except, maybe, your kids. And, in answer to your question, for that audience alone I would want to leave the public record on who broke up your family squarely in her court. 20 years from now, the machismo of saying that you tossed her out becasue of an affair isn't going to matter much to your kids that suffered from the outcome. Let that rest with her.<P>I agree with JL, I would tell her you saw the message, that you see that the affair is continuing, and you hope she understands that she is breaking up her family because her loins wanted to pursue a married man. All her stuff about that being over and her actually having worked to try to save your marriage and your family are exposed as yet ANOTHER bald faced lie. I would really feel compelled to point that out to her while she packed. Channel your anger into that discussion rather than letting it affect your legal decisions. <P>AGG, I know there has been a lot of self control on your part in this long drama, but this is the end game, and I think you should be blunt and honest with her, and make her look her actions squarely in the face.<P>I'm sorry at how this is playing out. I've been thinking about you all day.<P>Mike

AGG,<P>What does "Hubby and I are done" mean? It means she can see no way out in her depressed state. That is what she means. Does it mean she is right? Heck, AGG she hasn't been right in years. Why do you start to believe her now?<P>The woman has screwed up in the worst way. She knows it. But her only experience is if you screw up a marriage is that it is over. Not very imaginative I must admit, but that is how she is viewing it. You on the other hand know that the marriage can be restored and that the situation as it currently sits with you, her, and OM will not stay the same no matter what you decide.<P>When it changes, so will her opinion of many things.<P>Think about it.<P>JL

AGG,<P>One last thought before I head home. I know this is going to sound crazy, but you said that your W has made all of the decisions. So I suppose she decided on the LS not you.<P>I am just sitting here thinking maybe you should tell her you are having a hard time with all of this. "You cannot decide between LS and divorce. You know she doesn't have any respect for you, but you hate to throw away so much effort. You know the marriage can be saved, but you don't know if it will. You are very tired and beaten down from this."<P>So I would ask her or rather tell her of your indecision. I don't know why I recommend this, because she will probably say "whatever you want to do is fine." But you know honesty sometimes does help.<P>I don't know AGG, I am afraid I am more attached to your marriage than you or your W. Isn't that strange? <P>Just a thought.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

AGG,<P>I can't even begin to tell you how sorry I am to hear of the latest round of pages!<P>I wholeheartedly agree with Mike and JL that it is time for her to know EXACTLY how her and her OM's actions have affected you, and no better time than while you are still fuming about it--I'll tell you this, it would be World War 3 at my house if I had discovered something like that on my H's pager, one of us would be leaving the homestead on a very permanent basis and very quickly at that! I would never allow myself to be disrespected in such a manner and not mention a word about it! Anyway, it is time for your W. to feel a little guilt and remorse for her actions, and to know how she has really hurt you, and for her to not be able to twist it around in her mind how this entire situation is somehow your fault and she is merely a helpless victim, and a promise to her that you won't allow anyone else to be polluted by her lies/beliefs either.<P>As for the "separation" or "divorce", only you know if you can ever truly recover from all that has happened thus far. If you even feel as though there is a slight glimmer that you can, I would definately check the "separation" box, because I honestly feel that once she is out on her own she will receive the slap of reality that she desperately needs and wonder what the heck she has been doing, and let's all hope it is a really hard slap at that! At that point, all your Plan A efforts and persistance have a very good chance of being beneficial and winning your wife and marriage back and that would make us all very happy!<P>Just as Mike said, I too have been thinking about you and your latest situation all day and am hoping you are dealing with it in the best possible way!<P>Good luck to you!

Hi AGG,<P>what a discussion. With some very valid points and questions.<P>However, for my 2 cents worth, I was at exactly the same place you are now at. In Sept last year.<P>I filed for divorce, as he made no attempt to either talk about what had happened betw. us, or solve it. I couldn't take any more.<P>I didn't want the divorce, and neither did he. He actually told me that. But why did we divorce you ask.. Because he wouldn't give up his girlfriends, his newfound bachelorhood, and he told me his heart wasn't in reconciling or trying to make things right with us. Go figure.<P>His words said one thing, but his actions displayed another thing. In the end, I was swinging from a rope on a daily basis. Didn't know which way to turn, what to think, who to believe, and couldn't remember who said what to whom......<P>I get the feeling you are at this stage now too.<P>I can't, and won't, tell you what is best for you. Only you know that. But what I can tell you is that my divorce stopped a lot of the churning of thoughts in my head. ie, Will he come back, or won't he.<P>I now have a semblance of peace in my life. yes I'm sad that this has all happened, and that he wouldn't even try to solve it. But for whatever reason, that was his choice. My choice was to put an end to the confusion, the turmoil, and the endless questions.<P>Now, it's a case of "well, he did that, he said that, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. He had ample opportunity to sort this, he chose not to. that was his choice. He has to live with that."<P>My life has become less complicated, and is now starting to settle down with the routine of co-parenting etc.<P>I have a lot more peace and stability within my own head, than I did before the divorce. I now have closure. I am now taking those baby steps towards moving on. Not with anyone else, by myself, but putting this sad event behind me.<P>I wish the same for you.<P>I just wanted to give you my perspective. I don't think I gave up too soon. I asked him to think about us, the children, our relationship, what we had, and what we could have had again. He chose a different path.<P>So I divorced him. And I have no regrets.<P>It was right for me. In your heart of hearts, when the time is right, you will know what is right for you.<P>take care of you and your children. They need to be first in this mess.<P>big hugs for you<P>Jo

JL, Mike, High Infidelity, WOC, Jo:<P>You guys really gave me a lot to think about; my head is still smoking... Thank you so much for your thoughts.<P>I guess after digesting all you said, I feel as follows. I see no hope for my marriage. None whatsoever. My W has gone out to an extended lunch, and the OM keeps feeding her (do you get my pun here? never mind... ). Over the last eight months of this crap, I have very gradually (and I think very irreversibly) gone from being madly in love with my W, to being disappointed, to being resentful, to being completely indifferent, to being angry. I cannot fathom the idea of being married to her. Every single thing about her repulses and disgusts me at this point...Like they say, the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference, and I am so indifferent at this point that I can't imagine how I ever loved this loser of a human being...<P>However, I agree that once she moves out, things are going to change. I think my life will greatly improve (and believe me, I am not ignoring the huge pain of having my kids with me only half time; they ARE my life at this point, and this will hurt.) However, now my W will have the pleasure of having them cry to her how much they miss Daddy, instead of me always being faced with "we miss Mommy" as she takes her endless business trips. I will have a lot of free time on my hands. She won't be able to deal with the kids and with her work. The two are simply incompatible. Her work will suffer, as will the lovenest with the OM. I just hope the children won't suffer.<P>So, I am willing to play along with the LS. The agreement says that I can be "single", and I plan to focus my life on ME and my kids, instead of on how to appease and please my W every day. I am looking forward to that.<P>Frankly, I fully expect my W to have some rude awakenings in this arrangement. But at the same time, I don't see how that can lead to a reconciliation. I sure as heck don't want one. I can't imagine that she can implement 1/10th of the changes that I would expect from her at this point. I also know that she is too proud (stubborn) to ever admit mistakes, especially something of this magnitude. Her motto is "when faced with a decision, make a choice and move on, and don't look back". <P>But I also buy Mike's argument, that this is no time for chest beating as to who dumped whom. So I'll go with the flow, until and unless the situation arises where I feel that the LS interferes with my life as I want to lead it in ANY way. <P>BTW, this whole thought process hinges on the lawyer confirming that the LS agreement cannot be rewritten for a subsequent Dissolution. If he does indicate that the agreement might be subject to change, I'll have to go with the Dissolution at this point; the financial implications are simply too great.<P>I'll keep you posted.<P>AGG

I VOTE LS!! BIG TIME!! It's NEVER over till it's over. (read my post) <BR> If I had that option my W and I would never have divorced. She came out of the "fog" a MONTH after our D but she had already MARRIED OM!! Now, she's filed for an annulment. She told me she almost said "NO" when the judge asked her (three times) if there she was sure that there was NO hope for reconciliation BUT, her lawyer squeezed her hand had she said YES.<BR> BTW, the thing that helped me not "hate" or become indifferent to her was this... I found out and took responsibility for the things I HAD DONE to create the atmosphere that allowed the affair to take hold in the first place!! I KNOW there is NO excuse for what has happened BUT,this, and this alone allowed ME to grow because believe me I needed to grow and understand what the heck it takes to make a Marriage work in the first place!! I had NO clue before this happened!! Pride has no place in this. Your children NEED you to be STRONG and do ANYTHING to repair this. Even FORGIVE, if given the chance. <BR> My children (older 28 & 26) have told me that they think I'm the strongest person they know. Because I NEVER wavered from what I believed, DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION!! And Love is eternal... God also helped me teach them (while learning myself) that he expects us to ALWAYS forgive, not just the things we "can" forgive.<BR> <BR> Another thing that's helped is I thought of her as soooo lost and hurting (your W is hurting, don't let her fool you!!) Listen to the betrayers on this board. THEY ARE HURTING!! This made me endure ALL the hateful things she said and did because I KNEW this wasn't my W but the pain talking!!<BR> Did I read right that this LOSER of an OM is married too??? Oh brother, your W is in for a REAL awakening soon! He is just "playing her" I'm sure of it!! <BR> <BR> If you remember only ONE thing from this post remember this "DO NOT REACT TO WHAT SHE SAYS OR DOES GOOD OR BAD" YOU STAY CONSISTENT!! She needs that even though she acts like she doesn't Every "Success" story is based on the betrayed CONSISTENTLY showing LOVE and sticking to it. It's not your W, IT A FOG!!! And OM is NOT the issue, he is nothing.... 97% of affairs END of the 3 that don't only ONE makes it to marriage and THAT one usually only lasts under 2 years!! AFFAIRS END.... (That's taking into account ALL situations meaning there are some in which the woman was beaten, spouses in prison etc..) BUT AFFAIRS ARE AFFAIRS and the very thing that they thrive on KILLS THEM!!<P> PLEASE don't give up! PRAY!! GOD may have other plans!! GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom and PRAYER is why!!"<p>[This message has been edited by PLEASE HELP (edited February 18, 2001).]