Hi,<P> My Ws and I have been in real recovery now for 4 months. False recovery for 8 months.<BR>My H OW would not leave her live in and job for him. I feel like 2nd choice. They had a May 5th,2000 deadline for her to decide. My H at that time said he did not even decide yet. Duhhhh I even filed for a D on May 2nd but that did not stop him from seeing her.<BR>I Discovered affair March 17,2000.<BR> He says I am not 2nd choice, but isn't the obvious the obvious? H did not stop seeing OW when I discovered his A. In fact H kept in contact with her until Oct. when I discovered it again. How in the H--- do you know when it is over? <P> H has been very kind, patient etc with me. Answers a lot of questions. Sometimes he forgets things, when I ask about A. Very convienant. I wish she would have said yes. It would have been a lot easier for me. H does not offer any information. He lied the whole recovery time when I asked if they had spoken,etc. I had to catch him red handed and he still lied. He even went so far as to say AT&T screwed up, he did not call her. How stupid am I?? Or things were my imagination.<P> How many people here are BS who just can not get over it?? Just need opinions. Thank you for letting me rant!<P>------------------<BR>Deb

Hi Deb,<P> I think I can answer your question. Sure it would be easier, but in the end what would you have.<P> No marriage to a M you love. Do you want to start over again with a new one? I sure would not, after all 2 were enough. H made one (big) mistake. I know he broke your heart, but I hope he feels great remorse, even though sometimes you must wonder, after all the lies, and the false recovery.<P> I'm pretty sure at this time you do not feel to safe with trusting him with your heart so completely, Or at anytime again. <P> But you really need to quit the d--- whining, and just move on. Afterall, you are far from perfect. Personaly, I think you are really beginning to annoy the people on this board, because you are really beginning to annoy me, and probably your H. You should have not stopped taking your Prozac. <P> So, just move on Deb, and stop your D--- obsessing. Boy, you sure do bring out the curse words in me. <P>

HI Deb,<BR> I've been here a LONG time but just started posting again. <BR> Your questions are valid. I think we all would feel like a second choice in your situation. But remember this, your H may have really NOT wanted a long term thing with OW and this was a "way out" for him.<BR> Him not remembering things is not an act. It's textbook fog. That's a GOOD sign. This means that he really wasn't "himself" during the affair.<BR> The lies, textbook, the in and out of the affair, textbook.<BR> Why should you get hope from this. Like an illness, this IS curable once you get the proper diagnosis.<BR> What I see is that you may ask him too many questions. Let HIM TELL YOU. He will. Don't paint him into a a corner with too many questions. If there is something that you REALLY REALLY need (and really want) to know ask him if you can ask a question. If he says no, let it lie.<BR> Your questions (like mine in the begining) are just reminding him of OW. He needs to NOT focus on her.<BR> And one more thing. Read this board and learn to meet his needs. This makes your Marriage affair proof.<BR> Try and focus on what YOU DID to allow the Affair to take hold. Yes, you played a part, a very important one. Once you figure out what YOU did (not that you or ANYONE deserves it) you will lose a LOT of the anger and hurt you feel.<BR> GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom and PRAYER is why!!"

Deb,<P>I am exactly in your shoes, so I know just how you feel. Briefly, my H left in Feb. 2000--he was having an A and I didn't know, but I discovered it shortly thereafter. He moved back home in June, and I thought we were working on it, but he never left the OW. He was wierd all summer, and finally moved out in Nov. In Dec., he took her on a vacation and missed the holidays with the kids. In Jan., I went on a date and he started acting funny again. Finally, I pinned him down and said, "What is wrong?" and he said, "You are going to live your life without me." In Feb. 2001, we decided to work on reconciling, and that's where we are today.<P>So, I'm with you. Sometimes I feel like he REALLY wanted her, but got stuck with me. I rarely feel like I am the one he desires. When we have fights, he knows that's the first place to go to that hurts me--"I NEVER chased after you." He does not understand the MB principles, and he has major problems admitting to and dealing with his feelings; his motto is, "If you ignore it, it will go away." And to be honest, yes, I think it would be a WHOLE lot easier to leave him and start over with someone else whose personality is closer to my INFP, who understands MB principles, etc. <P>Know why I stay? Because I made a vow. That's it. I made a vow, before God and before our families that I would never love another, that only death would part us, and that I would love and honor him all of my days. That means keep trying after I think I can't try anymore. That means keep learning when I am sick and tired of learning. That means I am obligated to this man whether I "feel" like his first choice, his second choice or a leftover. And to be honest, I usually feel like a leftover. <P>Right now, my main focus is on my "feelings", because I believe that my feelings will follow my actions. For example, I can not honestly say that I feel "in love" with my H right now, but I think I can rebuild those feelings if my actions ACT like I'm "in love" with him. My H learns things about "feelings" very slowly, but I am slowly teaching him things that he can do to help me feel "in love", and I don't mean romantic tips. I mean, we are going over the Love Bank image, and Love Busters, and Emotional Needs. Okay, we've only gotten to the Love Bank part, but now he gets the idea of deposits and withdrawals, and that's helpful.<P>So, when I feel like a leftover sack of ugly potatoes, I know that is time for me to do something for myself. Deb, you know your H can not MAKE you feel loved or lovely. You chose how to feel. Now, granted, his behavior can strongly influence your choice, but you know in your heart that you are a stunningly great woman and a loving wife and an amazing lover, then you can make yourself "feel" that way too. <P>Deb, I know it's not a whole lot, but I am right there with you. Sometimes this just is too hard, isn't it? Once-in-a-while, wouldn't it be great to feel like the one that he picked? The one he WANTED? Yup, I know just what you mean. But just remember one thing. In the end, good bad or otherwise, he is with you, so he did choose you. Maybe you just need of "pity party" day, and then you'll feel better tomorrow. <P>{{{{{{{{{{Deb}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>You're in my thoughts and prayers,<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Thank you Frank and CJ<P> Frank you are right on. I read your post about the wife who ssemingly nags H to not eat the skin. It is me I finally got the message to my H that it was not my job, to do the wifely thing. I did it because that is how I show love. I want to take care of you. NOT HAVE TO I just do not know what his <BR>needs are. He has not said. The OW told him he was an absolute genius. (ALMOST) She just really stroked his ego. She is a Work Acholic just like him. He only, and always has in 20years seemed to mostly care about his damn job, more than his family. It is not even an assumtion on my part, I believe it to be true. I think he mostly cares about Larry. (himself)<P> Thank you CJ<P> It is so tiring isn't it. I changed my name from Flimsy Excuses (because that is what I get) to 2ndchoice that is how I feel.<P> Everything I ask him to do seems to much for him. He can not talk, it gives him anxiety attacks, depresses him, whatever. He is a big conflict avoider. Always was. He is also a nonnegotiable sort,too. If you do not agree with his thoughts of child rearing, how to do things, back seat driver in everything you do, and if you do not do it his way 100% he gets upset. Claims he always has to give in?? Please. His way is not always something I can go along with. Did I say controling?<P> He of course does not agree with any of this. never did.<P> When he did decide to honor us with his presense we actually felt honered.Unless he just came to yell at us for something. Then everyone scattered like little mice.<P> He insists you do things, in the name of love, that you really do not want to do. Office work!! Dispatching trucks. Bookkeeping. tax prep. H self employed. Then when you get tired of it, or resentful, because you can not do anything right in the first place. He acts like you are an unambitious couch potato. I have heard a million times about how we are partners, and it is my business, too. ( I must be the silent partner) He treats me just like some insobordinate employee. I usually just leave and do my own thing. (his Business) Then of course I abandoned him. Does he even know the meaning??<P> 4 years ago he decided, against my wishes. <BR>He wanted to go trucking. (talk about abandonment) Then he decided (against my wishes) to hire on some more truckers. (ditto) I was going to be the dispatcher?? (ditto)<P> On his journey he met OW. He met her a couple of years ago, but did not Know her. Until the fall of 1999. She offered him a $30,000.00 freight contract. The big clincher is It would take about 3 months of just moving theres. Well he said OK! (ditto)<P> He stayed in Detroit and at this place of business, for weeks at a time, I did not see him for a couple of months. Did I say hurt, and resentful!!!!!<P> Well he was a changed man. He got worse, not better. Now he starts fights with me, says I can not go with him because I am to messy. Boy that one just devestated me. I cried for 3 days. He did not comfort me or apologize. He just kept it up, any excuse after that to not make it home. I think he was gone for 2 weeks at a time. and always in Michigan.<P> Well in March 17,2001 I figured it out(duh) <BR>I was absolutly floored. Just frinds crap started. I asked him if he was planning on leaving me for her. He actually mumbled something like. If I thought I had a chane with her. I guess I will find out May 5th.<P> Well I was absolutly devestated. Here all these years I sit waiting for his attention, and damn if she did not get. <P> Well OK, I wont see her. Just friend. Why can't I be HAPPY. I just want my friend.You don't love me anyway. I make you miserable.<BR>Yes, he sure did and on purpose too. So I tell him, not true. Do love him. I am in total shock, devestation, can not sleep, eat, cry constantly. Did that phase him. Yes. He stepped up his nastiness!! Told me I had been a bad mom, kids grown at this point, last one just left home. (another bad time for me) boy was his timing good. Said I was a bad wife. Did not even know how to love a man? Why didn't I get my own job and move away, and be happy. No not anywere near here, kids were grown up now and did not need me anyway. Shoud make it on there own witout my help. GEE thanks NO JOB NO MONEY TO MOVE AWAY WITH. Sent to pasture.<P> I took it all to heart. He said and did so much, I feel Stupid, (called her a genious), boring, (said she was fasinating.) I was just domesticated (she is VP to tiny CO)<BR>unambitious, (she has no children, by choice) So she can be her work alcohlic self. She has also been living with the President of company for 10 years. He left his wife and children after a 3 year with her. Isn't she precious. by the souns of my H desription of him, he is one withdrawn and depressed man. Gosh I wonder why. When his kids came to visit him, she would not even cook for them. Can I say selfish B----.<P> My H is fortunate to be turned down by her. She is untrustworthy, selfish, controlling, money lover,non christian, pro-abortion, cheating sneaking, lying, egotistical, oppurtunist, with a prestigous title. Go for it <P> What was he thinking.<P> Boy did I spill all my guts out here.I have no confidence, I did get my own job though, something I like. I work for the mentally retarded. I am into human services.<BR>Not business. I love the elderly, underprivliged, Mental Retarded people of the world. " The innocent will see God" they are precious. Husband at least did not steal my compassionet soul anyway. Just everything else. Sorry to blubber<P> From one leftover to another. I always felt that way anyway. I got his leftover time. I hate him. He destroyed my everything<P> <P>------------------<BR>Deb

just me<P> Sorry about all of the mispelled words. I feel stupid. And She had a 3 year Affair with her present live in .I left out the A.<P>------------------<BR>Deb

Deb,<P>Did we marry twins? My H is self-employed too. He is a conflict avoider too. He met his OW through work too, and gave me the, "you don't love me so what are you so upset about" speech too. Seriously, if our H's aren't twins, then we are definately soul sisters! <P>Anyway, I don't know what to tell you except that I know exactly how you feel. Been there--doing that! I'd have to say that I am counting my blessings, though, because although my H thinks this MB stuff is psychobabble, he is at least willing to talk about it nibble by nibble. The Love Bank thing made a lot of sense to him. <P>I have to tell you a secret, one BS to another. I got such a tickle out of your reference to "grace us with his presence." OMG! That is exactly what it is like! As if we should be GRATEFUL! Okay, on one hand, I am grateful to have the chance to try again when so many folks never even get the chance. But on the other hand, I feel like HE should be grateful for ME--for all the crap I put up with from him, and all the times I cried myself to sleep while he slept with another for comfort, and all the times I paid the bills and took care of things while he ran around and did whatever he wanted. UGHHHHH!!<P>Nonetheless, I have learned and am learning one very, VERY important thing. What is done, is done. No matter how long I fuss about it, it will not change. I think you are trying to "rebuild" the marriage you had before, and actually, you need to BUILD something altogether new. As a matter of fact, I was trying to talk to my H about this very idea. We can never go back and fix all the things we both did wrong. BUT, I think we can both repent and repair, and I think we can both build something new starting today.<P>The repent and repair idea is something he is not very comfortable with, but I used this idea. For me, one of the BIGGEST things I lost was the feeling of being wanted. That's all shot to h*ll! Anyway, there is no way that he can go back into the past and change the fact that for a while, he picked the OW over me. That will never change. BUT he can repent (say I'm sorry now and then when I need to hear it) and repair by BUILDING NEW behaviors like: holding me at night, telling me out loud and in whispers that he wants me, etc. Thus, not only is he repenting and repairing for the OLD behavior, but at the same time building NEW behavior. <P>Here's the part that is often overlooked though. At the same time, I have to be honest with myself and admit that my crabby, *****y, demanding behavior contributed to this mess. So not only does HE have to repent and repair, but so do I! I can repent by saying I'm sorry when he needs to hear it, and I can repair by making sure that what I say out loud is at least more positive than negative, by making sure that I bring up a criticism at an appropriate time and in an appropriate attitude, etc. For me, it was so much easier to see the things he did wrong or not quite to my "standard" and I fell into an awful habit of not saying out loud all the things he did that I appreciated, not building him up, not making him feel like my hero. So, guess what? I have some NEW BUILDING to do too.<P>Deb, you will never, EVER change the past or change him, but you can change you, so I would keep your focus and your efforts on changing YOU. Focus on the good things he does (even if there's only one or two, gush on those one or two); focus on how much you have grown and everything you have learned about yourself--you are SO STRONG! WOW! And focus on the NEW marriage you are building, not your OLD one. <P>You're in my thoughts and prayers!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

CJ,<P> I got a kick out of you understanding my <BR> sarcastic humor. <P> After I wrote that extremely long post. I did start to feel so much better. Thank you<P> She (OW) is a shallow person. My H Is a born again Christian. We met at a roller skating rink, our 1st date was at Sunday Night Worship. We got married as Christians. <BR>Went to church. He was Baptized during our 1st year in marriage. I had already done that. Unfortunatly, we eventually got away from that. Then just dabbled in it now and then. Guess what?? Once you open the door to Jesus Christ, you should never try to close it. It is impossible. He is always their to get your attention. He got my H again. He surely got mine again,too. sorry about the sermon<P> Well I realized these things about her as I was venting to you. She is not better than me. (husband already said that) He has also told me I was the best. (Please) I am not the best anything. Anyway, I feel pity for (ow) and even more so for the man who left his family for her. My H even feels sorry for him. As my H said I was much deeper than her. (20 minutes ago) Thank you Larry.<P> I am surly, not perfect. He just found every flaw in me, made some up, and it all went right to my heart. I wish I did not hear his A talk. I wish I had never discoverd it. If I had to do it over again, I would get up and leave. <P> My H said I should ignore about 90% of the things he said. I wonder what the 10% I should not ignore is?<P> I do not want my old M back either. H has changed. I did notice. He basicly trying to not be so critical. He is becoming the man I married again. I am becoming the one he married again. It really is a wonderful metamorphisis. Only now I am smarter, older, more gentle, more compassionate, less judgemental, but darn I sure was cuter than.<P> He is also all the above. It is hard to see through anger and tears. And the roller coaster goes up.<BR> <P>------------------<BR>Deb

First, I wrote a giggle on your "let's boycott triggers" thread. You're funny!! <P>Second, I have a crazy idea. I'm feeling crazy, because I just sat in my chair, in my little Dilbert cube, and twirled in my chair. Anyway, tonight, while I'm away from my computer, I'm going to write as many positive things as I can think of about my H. Sometimes, I get so stuck on the hurt and heartache of the past, that I don't see the good stuff happening RIGHT NOW. <P>Deb, why don't you do the same thing? You can email your list to me, and we could start a soul sister club with cinderella!<P>{{{{{Deb}}}}}<P>Smile, chick! <P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited February 21, 2001).]

Thank you cindy,<P> I will do that,also!!! mine is <BR> <BR> bbs289@aol.com<P> <P>------------------<BR>Deb

Hello gals,<P>Deb your post sure did confuse me-I about told you off for the way you told yourself off. I read Torn Asunder and according to the counselors in the book you need to know all that occured in the affair. You need to know the "love language" that OW gave. According to this book for proper healing on both parties your WS needs to see your anguish and needs to also feel it so they will go on the path of recovery. Now don't quote me on all of this but I highly recommend this book. They do quote Dr. Harley's material also. Wmen need to know the details I think because then there are no questions in their minds. The book says if this throws the WS back into the OW's arms than so what they have already been there and this is nothing new. Like I said I wouldn't try these techniques unless I was sure about them. Just wanted to gab with the girls for a bit...