Hey, PLEASE HELP, I didn’t want to risk redirecting <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002225.html" TARGET=_blank>your thread</A>, so I’m moving your response to me into its own thread.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PLEASE HELP:<BR><B>I know what it's like to "Feel" that you need a miracle in this mess!! BUT, I believe that ALL reconciliation's ARE miracles nowadays!! Let's face it, the world is just to accepting of D now!! Our parents generation would have to add the "shame" of a D to their list of minuses. NOT OURS, hey, if it feels bad LOSE IT if it feels good JUST DO IT! "Divorced?" "Ya me too, on my third marriage" "The second or third Marriage is the BEST!"<BR>That's, what people hear out there when they question whether or NOT to D!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I come from a family culture which still believes in the sanctity of marriage. On my father’s side of the family, not a single aunt, uncle, or cousin is or has been divorced (all are married, and in their first marriage). That’s almost unheard of in this day and age. Divorce was something I myself was unable to imagine, and I was caught unprepared for the reactions of friends and family, ranging from the assumption that I did something to my wife to make her leave me, to I-don’t-want-to-get-caught-in-the-middle-so-just-stay-away-from-me, to oh-well-too-bad-it-didn’t-work-out, to instantly choosing sides without bothering to hear both sides of the story, to assuming that my wife must have left me for another man.<P>I have been very fortunate that the majority of my friends and family have been extremely supportive of me. But my impending divorce has colored <I>all</I> my relationships, and the cumulative impact has been nearly as traumatic for me as the actions of my wife herself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>As for your situation, I'm going to sound crazy but when she DOESN'T contact you I think it's best for<BR>your situation. It's the time they actually THINK We had "no contact" times of 14 days, then 34 days then 58 days!!! Then contact, then none for 33 days. This is when GOD is driving the boat.... he is working and FIGHTING for your Marriage. Back off and she'll call eventually. She'll use the STUPIDEST excuse you'll EVER hear to call BUT, she WILL call.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I don’t think in my wife’s case that her lack of contact means she is actually thinking. I think it is the reverse: her lack of contact is a desperate attempt to avoid anything that might cause her to <I>start</I> thinking. And so, I am actually feeling pretty encouraged. Her response to my interrogatory (the only communication I have had from her in six months) really gave me an emotional boost. Her perspective is <I>so</I> outrageous, so far over the left-field wall, so self-contradictory and so out of character, that I just can’t imagine her fog machine maintaining that level of output indefinitely. I think the fact that she had to resort to such extreme fabrication - such that anyone who knows her could immediately tell she was off base - indicates the depth of her dissonance. If she has to believe that I am a monster in order to justify leaving me, then that says to me that her <I>values</I> regarding marriage are still intact.<P>She has constructed a house of cards, and I think the only reason it hasn’t collapsed yet is that she has built a very solid wall around it, and won’t let anyone inside whom she doesn’t trust to hold their breath and tiptoe.<P>I worry primarily about how my wife will react when that house of cards comes crashing down (there are a lot of dangerous places for her to run to), and secondarily about how much I can contain the damages in the meantime.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>W tells me NOW that this is when she was hurting (about US) the most. So, don't get mad at her or internalize the no contact. Look at it as this is when GOD is working the MOST FOR you!! Give it to him and he can and WILL work miracles!! I'm praying HARD for you!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I really appreciate the prayers. I don’t doubt that God is working, and I have too much empathy for my wife to be angry with her. (My anger is reserved for the court system, which sets up rules so that when it encounters a drowning, panicking swimmer attacking a would-be rescuer, it will help the swimmer beat up on the rescuer and leave the swimmer to drown.) I have a pretty good idea of what led my wife to this pass, and I am very much aware that it has very little to do with me.<P>For years I took responsibility for the problems in our relationship. I felt like a failure because nothing I did made a difference, and I fell into depression. Part of working my way back out was the realization that no matter how much you to try to show someone that you love them, you can’t make them <I>feel</I> loved. There are some people to whom you can give a diamond, and they will assume it’s fake simply because they don’t believe anyone would give <I>them</I> a real one.<P>What my wife needs most right now, I think, are twin doses of reality and self-esteem. And the problem with <I>that</I>, of course, is that acknowledgement of reality will carry with it a guilt that will bring down her self-esteem. She has competing needs.<P>But handing it over to God is hard for me. I don’t have much trouble giving him what I know I can’t control, but I am still responsible for my own actions, and I want to do everything in my power to help my wife. If all I can do is pray, then so be it. But I keep trying to think up other things I can do, and it isn’t easy for me to figure out whether I am interfering with God’s work, messing with his timing (like Abraham with Hagar), or really doing the <I>right</I> thing. I still have some problems with self-doubt, although it helps to realize that <I>anything</I> I do or don’t do at this point can (and probably will) be used against me.<P>Like, I sent her a valentine. Possibly a bad idea. Shortly after my wife left me, I asked the therapist who had been working with us whether it would be a good idea to send her flowers for our anniversary or her birthday. He thought not. Better to give her space, since that’s what she obviously wanted. Don’t pressure her. Okay, but on the other hand, I remember that the last time I gave her the space she asked for, she concluded that I didn’t want her any more. And I remember the scene from <I>The Parent Trap</I> (both versions, I think) in which the father asks the mother why she left, and the mother asks the father why he didn’t come after her. So, I sent my wife a valentine. Probably she will see that as controlling, and it will steel her resolve against me. But maybe some day it will mean something different to her…<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited February 19, 2001).]

<P>thanks for the MB courtesy <BR>GnomeDePlume,<BR> Whew, there is so much I want to respond to in this post!! You'd think after almost 2 years here I'd know how to use the "quote" option!<BR> First about the reaction of family and friends:<BR> This is where I've had the hardest time in all this. I've had responses from the famous "Hey, forget her there's plenty of fish in the sea" to my BROTHER'S "If you take her back I'll NEVER speak to you again"!!<BR> Mostly 8-2 FORGET HER SHE'S NO GOOD!! She even questions how I could take her back.<BR> So, my heart SCREAMS that I want her back, God tells me we should forgive 70X7 and almost everyone in my life thinks I'm crazy for even thinking about forgiving her. Well, the one thing that WE have that THEY don't is the KNOWLEDGE of the mechanics of an affair (thanks to Dr. Harley) That they DO NOT happen because the betrayer is some sort of "Lower form of life" unworthy of trust or love that needs to be run out of town on a rail!! <BR> So why is it that there is such a incredibly low "success" rate after an affair? I think because first, most people don't have the support that WE do. They have the above nonsense. Second, most, even when they get here don't "GET IT" that this is a time where ALL we can do is work on ourselves, be the betrayers "friend" avoid lovebusters at ALL costs and NOT REACT TO THE FOGGY CRAZY acts and words they lay on us because when it's over, even THEY won't believe they said or did such terrible things. If we "counterpunch" and fight and educate and<BR>hurt back and control. We are trying to control and fight something that isn't really there? You know what I mean?<P>YOU SAID:<P>I worry primarily about how my wife will react when that house of cards comes crashing down (there are a lot of dangerous places for her to run to), and secondarily about how much I can contain the damages in the meantime.<P> My W has just spent 8 days in a "safe" part of the hospital. It's where I saw her heading, but WE can not stop this. For some, it's part of the healing process. I know what you mean though BELIEVE ME!!<P>YOU SAID:<P>"Part of working my way back out was the realization that no matter how much you to try to show someone that you love them, you can’t make them feel loved."<P>Ah, this is the most important thing I learned. You are wrong about this one. Yes, it is IMPOSSIBLE to make someone feel loved IF you DO NOT speak to them in the LANGUAGE of love THEY understand. If you do you WILL feel like NOTHING you say or do is good enough. I've been there and it was MY biggest mistake in MY Marriage!!<P> Example:<P> W says to me "Don't eat the skin on the chicken it's bad for you" I hear NAG NAG NAG What she meant was "I love you and want you to stay healthy so you can be around as long as possible.<P> She was talking to me in HER LOVE LANGUAGE. She may as well have been talking GREEK, I didn't get it. <P> The way I understand and FEEL loved is with affection. SO, if she had said the SAME thing but "hugged me" I would have got it. AND FELT loved NOT nagged!! <P> Now, I tell her I love her and hold her and kiss her etc... Does she "FEEL" love, NO..... why? Because if I TOLD her to take her vitamins, scolded her for eating something bad for her or went outside and fixed the stair so she wouldn't fall THAT is how SHE UNDERSTANDS love. <P> It's easy really, when we want someone to FEEL loved all we have to do is "mirror" what THEY do to show love. That's why the OP's are so successful at making them feel loved and THAT is a VERY powerful draw, irresistible for most.<P> Our spouses probably had 100 people in there lives that were attracted to them while married to us. Why was THIS OP successful? A little luck, a little timing a little making them FEEL loved and BANG: Affair. Most OP's couldn't compete with the spouse on ANY OTHER playing field!! <P> My OM is 62, missing teeth in the front (W was a dental hygienist too!!) fat, an alcoholic (W's father was too and she carries the scars she'd FLIP if she thought I WAS a little tipsy!) hardly talks, has no friends, no belief in God, no family contact (even with grandchildren!!) Combs is hair from his earlobe over to the other and uses a can of hair spray to keep it there. EVERYTHING he stands for goes against the very fiber of what my W is about. BUT..... he made her FEEL loved. POWERFUL POWERFUL stuff!!<P> Well, I'm WAY to long winded here but two quick things.<P> One, here is a great quote I just heard"<P> " A man is not unwise who gives up what he can't keep for something he can't lose" Your W loves YOU not OM. You can't "keep" this person she thinks she is right now, but, you can't "lose" the person she REALLY is. <P> Two: Keep the cards and letters going and be consistent in your belief in your Marriage. I read a great thread about a WS that went home. His W had written in a letter every day for months with no response. One day after he came home she was doing the laundry and found the first (and most heartfelt and longest) letter she had written him. It had been folded and unfolded so many times that it was almost falling apart. Her husband told her through tears that it was THAT letter that kept him going. He hated himself but knew that he was loved anyway.<P> GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom and PRAYER is why!!"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PLEASE HELP:<BR><B>You'd think after almost 2 years here I'd know how to use the "quote" option!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's the rightmost icon on the posting date line ... two icons over from the sunglasses.<P>You just cut'n'paste, and duplicate the bracketed commands if you want to make more quoted segments so that you can intersperse your own text.<P>

GnomeDePlume,<BR> Thanks for the tip on quotes. BUt.... what did you think of the whole OTHER part I wrote? PLMK GOOD LUCK & PRAYERS FRANK

Sorry I’ve taken so long to respond. I’ve been busy…<P>Sisyphus is the one who gave you the quote tip, and I can’t take credit where it’s not due, but I do certainly appreciate your encouragement.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PLEASE HELP:<BR><B>…this is a time where ALL we can do is work on ourselves, be the betrayers "friend" avoid lovebusters at ALL costs and NOT REACT TO THE FOGGY CRAZY acts and words they lay on us because when it's over, even THEY won't believe they said or did such terrible things. If we "counterpunch" and fight and educate and hurt back and control. We are trying to control and fight something that isn't really there? You know what I mean?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think I know what you mean. I am still working on trying to squeeze a little subtle educating in with my messages of affirmation, in part to make it clear that I want to affirm my wife as a <I>person</I> even though I cannot approve of her actions. I would like her to understand how it is possible for me to retain love and respect for her in spite of her very strange and hurtful words and behavior. But it’s really tough to <I>explain</I> anything without coming across as condescending, especially when my wife is apt to interpret anything I do or say, even a straightforward expression of love, as an intolerable attempt to manipulate and control her.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My W has just spent 8 days in a "safe" part of the hospital. It's where I saw her heading, but WE can not stop this. For some, it's part of the healing process. I know what you mean though BELIEVE ME!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One of the things that helps me be patient is the consideration that I want my wife to take the least destructive path to recovery, not necessarily the shortest path. That is what I pray for, even realizing that the pain of divorce and possible financial ruin may <I>be</I> that least destructive path. I believe that God is working in my wife’s heart (hey, he <I>promised</I>, didn’t he?), and that he will go with her and help her on her journey as long as she lets him; but that this is still a journey she must make. She would have had to face it or something like it no matter how or if I were in the picture, helping or hurting. She <I>must</I> bear this burden herself if she is going to heal, and some level of pain is unavoidable.<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>YOU SAID: "Part of working my way back out was the realization that no matter how much you to try to show someone that you love them, you can’t make them feel loved."<P>Ah, this is the most important thing I learned. You are wrong about this one. Yes, it is IMPOSSIBLE to make someone feel loved IF you DO NOT speak to them in the LANGUAGE of love THEY understand. If you do you WILL feel like NOTHING you say or do is good enough. I've been there and it was MY biggest mistake in MY Marriage!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I became familiar with the love language concept some years ago, and I do not believe that incongruent love languages were the primary problem in my marriage. I <I>begged</I> my wife to tell me what she needed for me to do to show her that I loved her, and I worked hard to meet those needs she was able to articulate. (Unfortunately, she was pretty vague about what she needed. All she could generally say was that she needed to <I>feel</I> a certain way.)<P>But you cannot make someone feel loved if they believe themselves to be inherently unloveable.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Your W loves YOU not OM. You can't "keep" this person she thinks she is right now, but, you can't "lose" the person she REALLY is.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with this. For the more than fifteen years I knew her, my wife was consistent in personality and character. Suddenly she seemed to become someone else. Which person do I believe in? Which is real? <I>I’m</I> betting on the person I knew for those many years.<P>Not that it really matters, but I don’t think there is an OM. (And yes, I read the lengthy list you posted for Daveyboy. None apply, except perhaps the one about avoiding those with strong moral values.) An affair is not the only fog precipitator. I believe my wife left because she felt she was losing her sense of who she was. I got too close, “threatening” to scuff out her poorly-drawn ego boundaries, and so she panicked and ran.<BR>